Talk:Scarborough Fair

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
An {{Infobox Single}}, {{Infobox Song}} or {{Infobox Standard}} has been requested for this article. Please select the appropriate infobox and format it according to the guidelines.

An infobox was requested for the 1968 Simon and Garfunkel version ("Scarborough Fair/Canticle") at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/List_of_notable_songs/12.

Contents

[edit] Wrong notes!

The notes in the picture is not the scores to Scarborough Fair!

[edit] Addition

added the Simon and Garfunkel arrangment; its a little messed up though, I'd parreciate it if someone could fix it

I removed this section. Do not submit copyrighted material without explicit permission. Joestynes 08:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simon and Carthy source?

Anyone have a source for the information on the rift between Simon and Carthy, and its ending in 2000? Thanks. --Allen 00:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Try Paul Castle's interview with Carthy. Bluewave 09:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Herbal abortion?

As part of a medieval recreation group, I often hear people refer to Pasley Sage Rosemary and Thyme as a concoction suppose to induce an abortion, and recover from one. This leads to an obvious second message to the song. The concoction is also believed to be a contracptive, but the "once was a true love" bits suggests not in this case.

I have yet to have anyone fully substantiate this, and can find little internet information I'd consider reliable.

Salvia (sage): good after miscarriage or abortion. http://www.henriettesherbal.com/archives/best/1994/salvia.html

It's possible Royal Thyme (Mentha pulegium aka Pennyroyal, which includes known abortive compound pulegone) is infered, but I not good enough at reading old script to determine if this likely.

Google keeps bringing me to this site - http://www.bidstrup.com/abortion.htm . However it appears to be part of a site full of bias and opinion stated as facts.


I'd also heard the theory that the herbs are all abortifacients, that is substances that can be used to cause a miscarriage. I discussed it with a herbalist friend who is also a member of the Order of the Laurel in the Society for Creative Anachronism, and she said that at most one of them is and one could be, but that the combination was no more likely to cause miscarriage than any other random set of four herbs. So I think it's a myth. --Eric TF Bat 00:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a rather well known Swedish folk song, Uti vår hage, originating from Gotland, with a similar burden, mentioning six herbs. Incidently, four of them are roses, salvia, spearmint and a Swedish herb name hjärtans fröjd (delight of heart), which is used for several different herbs; most officially to-day for Lemon balm, but in this case also probably for some kind of mint. There is the same kind of wide-spread theory of this burden hiding a recipe for an abortive. Like Eric TF Bat, I have not been able to find corrobation for this; but of course the dissemination of information about abortifacients was not encouraged. Moreover, I've read an article (in Swedish) by by one of the grand old ladies in Swedish folk song research (Märta Ramsten, retired head of Svenskt visarkiv, the central Swedish folk song and ballad research institute), where she dismisses the idea as a 'modern myth', on the ground that the herbs be not known as abortifacients.
In the same article, Märta Ramsten contributes the interesting information that the burden of Uti vår hage or something very similarly has been found for several other Swedish songs and ballads; in one case as far back as aroung the year 1600:
Wungersuen snaka thill kärristen sin:
Min hiertans frödh,
wille J rida /J/ lunden Jdag,
Roser och saluier, lilijer och persilier
krusade mynte och hiertans frödh:
She also states: By the way, burdens containing enumerations of herbs – spices and medical herbs – also occur in Danish, German and English ballads.--JoergenB 20:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verses

The verses do not belong here. Either a link to an external site, or a Wikisource reference, but not here. Goldfritha 23:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed; i believe including full lyrics onto main pages violates copyright. I would advise the deletion of them,and adding a link to an external site on them. However, I'd rather hear a third opinion on the matter before any action if at all possible. Either confirmation or rejection.

Gowikiit 17:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the verses should be on Wikisource rather than in the article itself, but it shouldn't be a copyright violation, since it's a traditional folk song. Mak (talk) 18:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British TV show

I am surprised that no-one has updated the main article to include a 'also seen in' reference to the British TV show 'Rosemary & Thyme.' It is obviously both a tribute and a link to the song.

Grandma Roses

[edit] Why separate articles?

Note, that Child includes some variants of The Elfin Knight which essentially are Scarborough Fair versions. Like with St. Stephen and Herod, the fact that the ballad continues to be known and sung doesn't in itself disqualify it from the 'popular ballads'.--JoergenB 18:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Since no one commented or protested this, I guess no one disagrees with me merging the articles Scarborough Fair and The Elfin Knight(?). JoergenB 19:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Parsley: I'm yours" et al.

The passage with the list that itemizes what the herbs symbolize is random and unexplained. At the very least there should be a link to a page that explains these seemingly arbitrary assignments. Otherwise this interpretation should be removed. Atw13 06:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this was taken from the "The morden herbalist" article to which there is a reference. However, this rather light-touch article in its turn doesn't give better references than just that this was information found on the net. JoergenB 03:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
According to that link, parsley and thyme have their meanings as the reverse of what they are here. If no one can clean up that section of the article (at least add the in-context citation and briefly explain the rationale, if not find something with a citation that predates the web) I would like to remove it.Atw13 05:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Or just replace it by a handful of words and a link: For an attempt to explain the burden, see...? JoergenB 19:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Melody

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion as to the melody of this song. As previously commented, the score in the image is not the tune most know of as being the song, which is that sung in the media file. The trivia section claims the melody to be the same tune as that of "We Three Kings." The "We Three Kings" I know is only vaguely similar at best to the Scarborough Fair in the media file, and nothing like the melody in the image. Another trivia file states, rightly, that the song is in the Dorian mode (again, the familiar one), but the melody in the image is E minor, not E Dorian. It is not outlandish to think there may be more than one melody to this song, and it would be nice if someone more knowledgeable could address that issue. Atw13 06:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Where'd the 'familiar' melody come from if the original was 'we three kings' ?
No, it's not the melody of "We Three Kings" that matches, it's the meter. In other words, you can sing the songs to each other's tunes, if you work it right. The pacing is just different. There's a similar phenomenon between "America the Beautiful" and "Auld Lang Syne", which can be sung straightforwardly and easily, to each others' tunes. Wahkeenah 03:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
If the notes are different, and the meter is the same except for the syncopation and/or the pacing, then what's left? The same number of syllables per line? Hardly noteworthy. And even that breaks down at the third line - "Field and fountain, moor and mountain," is nothing like, "Remember me to one who lives there." Atw13 05:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, that at least is pretty piontless trivia, I'll remove it. As to the tune, it's very normal for a folk song to have a number of tunes, some of them only very distantly related to each other. For the example I sang it to the tune I know, but I could also make a recording of the tune that's in the sheet music now, or I could maybe make another sheetmusic example, or I could do both, depending on what people want. Mak (talk) 05:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)