Talk:Savate
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[edit] Glove Color
From the article:
- Many martial arts provide ranking systems, such as belt colors. Similarly, savate uses glove colors to indicate a fighter's level of proficiency. (Unlike arts such as karate or capoeira, which assign new belts at each promotion, however, savate rank is not actually reflected in the color of one's gloves.) Novices begin at no color. Promotion tests allow the fighter to graduate successfully to blue, green, red, white, and yellow. Competition is restricted to red glove rank and above; fighters at white glove rank are considered to be instructors in training, and yellow gloves are required to teach what they know to others.
I'm afraid I don't understand. If "savate rank is not actually reflected in the color of one's gloves", then what is meant by "Novices begin at no color", "Competition is restricted to red glove rank", "fighters at white glove rank", and "yellow gloves are required to teach", etc.??? func(talk) 02:55, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I think that what it means is that the ranks are called "blue glove", "green glove", etc., but that a person of green glove rank does not actually wear green gloves. (Perhaps they did in the past, but don't now.) --Paul A 08:35, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- It also means that rank has nothing to do with competition, as someone who has never tested, but has trained hard can compete. The rank doesn't have anything to do with competition as far as where I trained. jbutera 18:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- Paul A is correct. Your glove color (rank) does not have to be reflected in the color of your actual gloves. In other words, if you buy a pair of red savate gloves before your first-ever savate class, you're not going to have to get rid of them when you get promoted just because they're not blue. HDCase 18:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] La canne and grande canne
Two different martial arts? (Grande canne stick is bigger?)
- You could try reading the articles you've linked to... --Paul A 03:07, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Oriental influence
I haven't seen any mention of the suggestion of far eastern influence on the sport, which I have heard of elsewhere. The French had a strong empire in South East Asia. --MacRusgail 20:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- It's a good question, and certainly one could imagine how the sailors who developed Jeux Marsailleise might have been exposed to Asian styles. However, I think many savate practitioners are offended by the suggestion that it isn't %100 French. Since there is no reliable historical source documenting such influence (that I know of, at least), perhaps it's best to leave this off out of courtesy? --Anonymous Savate Buff, 2-20-2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.84.245.183 (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Savate Side Kick
I was always taught that the Savate was known for the power of its side kick, like Muay Thai is known for power of its round kick. To some people side kicks come in two flavors, thrust or snapping, but Savate adds the entire body, snap and thrust behind their side kick. It would be an interesting topic to talk about the mechanics of the Savate side kick. jbutera 22:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
- There are some very interesting discussions about this on martial arts message boards. The kick in question is the fouette - especially when directed to the solar plexus. If you do a google search for fouette and savate you can read up on it. Unfortunately, I don't know that Wikipedia would let us quote 'some guy on a message board' as a reliable source, so we may not be able to put this in the article... or is this all right, as long as we qualify the information? Something like "Although published material on this topic does not exist, a number of amateur martial artists have singled out the fouette kick as one of Savate's most powerful techniques," and then cite all the forum posts? 162.84.245.183Anonymous Savate Buff, 2-20-07
[edit] Josef Charlemont
Article leaves out some important facts. For example, one of the key people responsible for the dissemination of savate was Josef Charlemont, who wrote "l'arte de boxe francais et la canne" (the art of French boxing and the cane). Also, I believe that Alexander Dumas was a practitioner, and that it was one of the skills learned by the protagonist of "Le Conte de Monte Cristo". User_talk:Dessydes/To_be_sorted_and_worked_on_later#Savate Dessydes 01:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- It'd be great to see more detail. I hope you'll add it! JJL 17:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] About Michel, la canne, etc.
Savate means only slipped or old shoe. A savateur called Casseux or Casseaux is never existed. The guy in question was Michel dit Pisseux. Because of his offensive nickname (pisseux literally means "pissed") some savaters (i.e. Charlemont) wrote in their treatises that the surname of the first trainer of Savate was Casseux/Casseaux, just to defend their favourite. After Charlemont, other writers did the same. So Michel was baptized Casseux by authors who never knew and met him. Today, many writers continue to repeat the old mistake. The real name of this savater is still unknown. About the French armed fighting arts best known as La Canne (cane) and Baton (a quarterstaff), they were not born in France. The French learned these scientific methods in the Italian schools that taught wrestling, fencing and stickfighting during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. This fact is confirmed by the most famous historian and savateur of France, Sylvain Salvini. About the eastern influence of Savate you can read it in "Martial Arts Around the World" (Ist Vol.) by Soet; in "Savate" by Bruce Tegner; in many "Blackbelt" publications of the 1970s etc. In reality, about Marseille and Paris, the influence is to search in the southern part of Europe. Napoleon tried to invade some Mediterranean isle, and his sailors were defeated by natives who used their kicks as weapons. This fact is proved by ancient writings and drawings of the time. Alexander Dumas was a fervid supporter of Savate, and he himself trained in Paris. No idea about the novel, I never read the count of Monte Cristo. Hope this helps a little. --JeanMarc 20:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Gerard Gordeau NOT a Savate exponent
Gerard Gordeau should not be mentioned in this article. He is a Kyokushin karate exponent (kanji and kanku tatooed on his arm)and was billed as a Savate fighter in UFC 1 due to the IKO not giving him permission to fight. Footage of his fights is clearly not Savate (kicking with the shins, using knees etc) and he has also fought in the IKO world tournaments. Including him as a savate exponent discredits the article. There must have been genuine Savate exponents compete in cross style or MMA competition by now - surely some of the Savate exponents here can put forward a genuine example? He is now the head MMA instructor for the Kyokushin Budo-Kai (Jon Bluming's splinter group)in Holland. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.98.38.108 (talk) 02:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC).
Sorry, but Gerard did compete as a Savateur in Savate tournaments. In fact, the ads for UFC 1 show a few seconds of footage where Gordeau knocks out an opponent in a Savate match. Savate kicks in MMA don't work so well since barefeet are the norm. Perhaps he is a Karateka first, but he has some Savate experience.
--Rollo
[edit] Popular culture: Jeet Kune Do?
"Spike Spiegel from the television series Cowboy Bebop uses Jeet Kune Do, which incorporates its kicks from Savate."
Umm... there are a lot more instances of Jeet Kune Do than one character in an anime, as good an anime as it may be. Does this really belong on the Savate page at all?
--70.168.88.158 21:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Merge from Zipota?
The Zipota article was proposed as a hoax. As far as I can tell, it's not a hoax, but there's not enough independent information available to identify it as anything other than a Basque name for Savate. -- Shunpiker (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- A merge is reasonable, with the Zipota page made a redirect. Leaving them separate and saying more about the historical questions at Zipota would be fine too. I do think that Zipota merits its own section if moved here (in which the concern above would be addressed). JJL (talk) 00:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Removing wp:Hoax tag today. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Défense de la rue
Should we give a more broad description about Savate Défense/Défense de la rue techniques and possibly training of this "no rules" self-defense martial art? I'm not much of a writer myself and not a native english writer either, so I'd rather not do it but I'll help out if you see it necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.61.82.100 (talk) 06:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Pop Culuture
Not a huge surprise, but this section is getting gutted, it exists almost entirely on peoples opinions and original research, there is not one source, which isn't really that hard, if they say in one part of a movie they use savate, thats a source. Keep in mind that I don't need to prove things are wrong, you as the person who writes them into the article needs to prove they are right in some fashion. But I do know for a fact that some things are wrong, for instance Spike's moves are based off of Bruce Lee, he is not a savateur, hes a user of Jeet Kune Do and hes mentioned that in the series (or at least Bruce Lee for certain, been a few years) and I'd have to look it up but I'm pretty sure the creators have said that is where his martial arts come from too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 07:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC) Furthermore, phrases like "bears a resemblance to" and words like "appears" have little place in Wikipedia, certainly never describing something when there are no actual facts to support these apparent similarities, they then are expressing your opinion on the subject. Its my opinion that this world has had several thousand years of humans on it, hundreds if not thousands of cultures, all with their own ways of fighting, many of them teaching people to kick, several probably teach people to kick in a very similar fashion. Therefor I believe that while there might be similarities between two things, these two things are not the same unless they are stated to be the same, so many people interested in one specific thing claim that "this is similar to this", completely ignoring the hundreds of other things they are similar too. Balthier from Final Fantasy XXII is similar to Han Solo, and both are similar to Sir Francis Drake, and a dozen other charismatic pirates types, saying specifically that they are based off of each other with no proof aside from your diehard Star Wars knowledge is merely proof that you need to look at more articles. Consider that when you state your opinions in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 08:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
