Talk:Saul Alinsky
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[edit] Useless article
Other than a vague reference to "voting for social justice" there isn't a single word in this article about what Saul Alinsky's actual political beliefs were. Shouldn't an article about a person famous as an ideological leader be devoted mostly to his ideology, and not to irrelevant crap like a long list of people who may or may not agree with whatever it is Saul Alinsky taught (and what that was, one could not say from this article)?RockinRobbin 17:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Alinsky is regarded more for his methods than his particular policy positions. His notability rises from his techniques of community and grassroots organization -- lessons it could be argued have been applied by Democrats and Republicans alike, particularly in Karl Rove's "get out the base" push in the past two presidential elections. See this article: [1]. --208.58.3.202 16:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cause of Death?
Does anyone know how or why Alinsky died? Seems like it happened very soon after he published Rules for Radicals. Don't know that it is relevant to the article, but I am curious.--Chinawhitecotton 08:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC) smoking
Alinsky died of a heart attack at the age of 63 on June 12, 1972. AletaP 14:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
My father died of a Coronary Thrombosis on the morning of June 12, 1972 as he was leaving the dry cleaner's in Carmel, CA. It was a natural event.
Alinsky was a fascinating individual. This article should be far better than it is. Consult his 1971 Playboy interview for great insights into the man and his work. George415 01:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Of course we can't know for sure if it was natural. The CIA developed assassination guns that shot a tiny frozen splinter of poison into the body. The tiny entrance wound would be virtually undetectable, and the cause of death would be heart attack (coronary thrombosis). Supposedly the poisions used would break down soon after death, and thus be undetectable.
71.221.89.250 00:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Image copyright
I was very pleased to see an image of Alinksy in the article. However, according to the copyright tag:
It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of book covers to illustrate the book in question on the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law.
The guidelines are quite specific that fair use 'covers the book in question'. Isn't this a guideline violation? One may disagree with United States copyright law, but shouldn't we show some respect for Wikipedia's copyright guidelines, and some understanding of their legal situation? Potentially, any single copyright violation could cause an entire encylopedia distribution to be subject to legal action - Crosbiesmith 23:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- So what exactly is your complaint? Deyyaz 13:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- This image is, in addition to that use, being use to illustrate the subject of this article. That also falls under "Fair Use". So, no conflict. --NightMonkey 06:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
ANY image can be used by Wikipedia under Fair Use, copyrighted or not. Wikipedia is educational and non-profit. Full stop.
It's completely false to suggest that educational or nonprofit uses are not subject to the copyright laws. The copyright laws apply whether you're educating or not, whether you're trying to make a profit or not. (Full stop indeed.)
[edit] Dedication of "Rules for Radicals"
A user has been editing the page to say that "Rules for Radicals" was dedicated to Lucifer. This is not true. Please give a citation if you're going to make such claims. The book is dedicated to "Irene."
71.221.89.250 05:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
On the following page there is a jesting reference to "Lucifer," but to call this a dedication is to take it entirely out of context. Alinsky was known to be a character, even once suggesting a rally where everyone ate lots of baked beans and went into an Opera House for the rich. He called it a "fart-in." Although some might call this "confrontational," it's actually quite funny. Laughter has quite a cleansing effect on the soul. On the same page with the Lucifer jest there are also quotes from Thomas Paine and Rabbi Hillel.
71.221.89.250 22:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Alinsky is being misrepresented
The article states that Alinsky "encouraged controversy and conflict, often to the dismay of middle-class activists who otherwise would sponsor his activism." This is an utter distortion, and indeed the citation given to support this claim actually supports the opposite:
"There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and chance the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families - more than seventy million people - whose income range from $5,000 to $10,000 a year (in 1971). They cannot be dismissed by labeling them blue collar or hard hat. They will not continue to be relatively passive and slightly challenging. If we fail to communicate with them, if we don't encourage them to form alliances with us, they will move to the right. Maybe they will anyway, but let's not let it happen by default."
Perhaps the same folks claiming that "Rules for Radicals" was dedicated to Lucifer are involved in this?
71.221.89.250 02:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Who cares if Clinton wrote a thesis on Alinsky?
This is immaterial to the article.
71.221.89.250 02:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
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- I think that it is interesting and notable. I added a line and cite on the Hillary Clinton page. There is some speculation that her work and writing about Alinksy may (or may not) have affected her subsequent political journey. As she is a US senator and candidate for US President, I think it is notable and worth keeping.Kevinp2 17:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I still don't think it belongs in an article on Alinsky. It does indeed belong in the Clinton article, but she was not a student of Alinsky. She simply wrote an undergraduate thesis on his work. She never worked at the IAF, either, as noted below. I don't think the fact that she is running for president justifies including this in the article, unless in the context of a larger section on prominent figures who studied Alinsky's work, which would be a separate and much larger section from "Students of Alinsky." To qualify as a "Student of Alinsky," she would have had to have taken his teachings to heart. Even in her thesis she was critical of his philosophy, and she only seems to have continuously diverged from it afterward.
CelestialDog 20:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Clinton never a student at IAF
Removed Clinton from list of students at IAF. She was offered a job, turned it down to attend law school. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388372/page/3/
Saul Alinsky is a mentor of Hillary Clinton. The book Rules for Radicals, is the play book for Hillary on how to turn America into a Socialist society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agrmatt2 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] extended quote
I am not sure of the need for the extended quote.
Also, is this quote from Rules or Reville? It is credited to Reville but dated for Rules. Just wondering.
Cm1165 01:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)cm1165
The long quote originated from the fact that a citation was being given to support a claim, when the citation actually supported the opposite. We could whittle down the quote a bit, but I think it is helpful for understanding Alinsky's philosophy of truly democratic organizing and open, non-hostile communication between groups to develop a true democracy - a philosophy that Hillary Clinton rejected in her thesis, by the way, choosing the path of elitism. I know that's off topic for this question :)
71.221.89.250 21:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV never forever
Howdy. I see that user User:Abarry slapped the NPOV tag on this article back on 2/26, without listing specific objections or goals for improvement. NPOV cannot be used to just slag an article forever. It exists to assist (and insist) that editors fix the article, because the person applying the tag is either too lazy to fix it themselves, or is being prevented from fixing it by other agressive editors. The NPOV tag should not be idly applied to an article without other methods being attempted to fix the problem.
I'm going to remove the tag. If it is re-applied, it must be re-applied with specific references to sections or form which violates the NPOV policy. I'm not saying that this article doesn't deserve this tag, but it has to be applied fairly and with specifics on what the tagger expects to see fixed to be able to remove the tag. Cheers! --NightMonkey 20:23, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Birth and Upbringing
The article contains nothing of his early life. Were his parents rich, poor, or middle class? What was his educational background? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Juntoboys (talk • contribs) 08:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
