Talk:Sati (practice)
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[edit] shrine image
The shrine image is great. It would be helpful to give a bit more context for the sentence "The palm prints are typical"; why are they typical? For all shrines, or just shrines for sati? --Lquilter (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- For shrines dedicated to sati. Relata refero (talk) 12:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] references
The references section(s) are a mess -- there are three individual sets of refs; one that is automatically generated with {{reflist}}; a few references added below that; and a lot of numbered references that are manual. Before I start cleaning this up and putting it all into {{reflist}} format, I thought I would check to see if anyone else is working on this or has some other scheme in mind. --Lquilter (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I am mostly complete with consolidating the reference formats. In the process, I found some references where the original text had been deleted, but not the reference. There's been a lot of vandalism to this article over time so I'm adding these here to make sure we don't miss things we want to have in the article. --Lquilter (talk) 19:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I removed this orphaned cite: pp351, Moore, Barrington. Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy. Boston: Beacon Press, 1967. which accompanied this text:
Noted political scientist Barrington Moore mentions the practice of sati in his book Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy. Moore says of sati that "Such a custom might indeed test the beliefs of even the most firm present-day believer in the equal worth of all cultures"{{ref|bmoore}}. Moore goes on to state that the British suppression of sati and other religious and cultural activities was a factor in the Mutiny of 1857.
The text was added 2006/3/22 by Xijjix diff; and deleted 2006/10/28 by Imc diff who stated that there were more prominent critics, e.g., Gandhi.#{{note|bmoore}}pp351, Moore, Barrington. Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy. Boston: Beacon Press, 1967
- Another set of two orphaned cites had the accompanying text removed sometime around December 2005, but I cannot find the specific diff -- it was perhaps removed from the edit history.
The view of sati as a core practice of Hinduism, including the idea that it was compulsory, continues to be held and disseminated by various groups today, some within India, and many in the rest of the world. In recent years in Poland, criticisms and attacks by Catholics on the Hare Krishna movement in that country included charges that they planned to introduce sati into Europe{{ref|Catholics}}. The practice is often quoted as the ultimate example of the subjection of women, and this sometimes provokes resentment and criticisms from Hindus and Indians.{{ref|resentment}} <!-- need a section on modern feminist criticisms and attitudes.-->
#{{note|Catholics}}Defending Religious Freedom in Poland: Polish Catholics Persecute Krishna Worshippers by Ella Serwin and Magdalena Mola on the Poland (VNN). The Vaishnava News Network (VNN) is an independent network of collaborating Vaishnavas worldwide providing the world Vaishnava community with news and forums of communication.
The original text was in the document prior to December 6, 2005 (2005/12/4 version); see 2003-Dec 2005 version), and somehow the text was removed in December 2005 (see diff). Since there's no explanation of the deletion, I suggest this text (or a modified rewrite of it) be put back in. It includes the point that the practice is highlighted as an extreme horror and that the perception that it was a "core practice" of Hinduism is offensive to Hindus; that source of conflict and tension in fact helps to explain some of the edit warring that happened in December 2006, and is not presently addressed in the article. I'm not sure about the Poland material -- it seems a bit singular -- but I propose something like:#{{note|resentment}}Women and Hinduism in U.S. Textbooks by: David Freedholm on Feb 5 2003 on his blog site. backup site
- I removed this orphaned cite: pp351, Moore, Barrington. Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy. Boston: Beacon Press, 1967. which accompanied this text:
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- The idea that sati was a core practice of Hinduism or widespread throughout India sometimes provokes resentment and criticism from Hindus and Indians.[cite Freedholm].
- We could combine it with the previously requested, and never addressed, point about feminism, e.g.,
- Feminist critiques of the practice have increased awareness of it, and exacerbated those tensions.[need cite].
- And perhaps add a sentence to address the controversial revisionist scholarship and ideas that led to the edit wars of Dec 2006 -- this would be hard to write in an accurate and NPOV way, but maybe something like,
- Tensions around the historical genesis of the practice have led some revisionist scholars to deny Hindu historical ties to the practice, to tie it to waves of invaders, or to challenge modern accounts of alleged incidents of sati.
- My thinking is that the last sentence, if worded correctly, could help stave off efforts to add this material to the article in a non-neutral way, by acknowledging the substance of the issues in a neutral way.
- Thoughts on any of these sentences, or the older material? --Lquilter (talk) 02:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
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- Thank you for your work on this article LQuilter. As you have probably noticed, my own PoV must have crept into much of the current article. My comments on your detailed suggestions;
- . On the Barrington Moore quote, that I removed; I think that first, it contributes little to the article. Second, as another condemning view from a westerner, it is both superfluous and is the sort of thing that provokes edit wars from the likes of user Maleabroad. As I said before, there are numerous condemnatory Indian views that have not been quoted. Regarding his statement that it was a factor in the Indian rebellion of 1857, there are many primary sources in British histories of the rebellion suggesting this. This claim of it being a cause of the rebellion should be taken with a large dose of salt; the rebellion took place in areas of northern India where sati was little known, the rebellion was part led by the Muslim, and to a lesser extent the Hindu ruling classes of those regions, and the rebellion did not extend into areas where sati was most prevalent.
- On the section starting The view of sati as a core practice of Hinduism, including the idea that it was compulsory,..., yes I think that should be reinstated in some form. Your suggestions seem fine to me.
- Imc (talk) 09:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC).
- Thank you for your work on this article LQuilter. As you have probably noticed, my own PoV must have crept into much of the current article. My comments on your detailed suggestions;
- Hi Imc -- You've been doing great work, and I have no criticisms of it. I have no disagreement on the Barrington Moore quote; I liked it, but thought your comment was completely reasonable. I put it here for transparency -- there's been so much vandalism (that you have been primarily responsible for reverting over the past couple of years) that I'm sure it's been very hard to keep everything straight. It was just an orphaned reference, so I wanted to make sure we noted why we were taking it out. On the second material about "The view of sati as a core practice of Hinduism...", glad to hear that works for you; let's let it sit for a couple of days & see if any other regular contributor/policers have opinions (although you've been the main one). Cheers, Lquilter (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
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- I'd like to point out that Barrington Moore was one of the leading lights of political science, and the book in question is one of the most heavily cited in political science academia. I don't think that there's a good enough reason to remove it. Relata refero (talk) 12:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Unless I see a good reason why not here in a bit, I'll restore it. Relata refero (talk) 12:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] The origin of sati
Why develop a custom that forces widowed women to either commit suicide or live the rest of their lives as outcast, begging nuns!? You can’t just blame myths or religious texts! According to Steven Pinker culture is a mean to get a better life. Consequently, this tradition must originally have served a function. The Ancient Greek explanation is probably mere guesswork as most of their “scientific” writings. Anyone who have an idea?
2008-02-16 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.19.152 (talk) 11:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] On SR Bakshi
It's been brought to my attention that SR Bakshi is a professional historian and was formerly associated with the ICHR. There is no indication that he was a fellow there - in fact the implication is that he worked there - and ICHR is in any case a political rather than scholarly organisation as has been well documented. That being said, I've had a look at the appropriate paragraph in the book, which clearly attributes purdah to Muslim kidnapping, child marriage to Muslim rape, and Sati to Muslim liberties with widows. I think its fairly representative of a certain sort of ahistorical view of these events (even up to the bit that claims the shastras were rewritten in the 13th century to retrospectively legitimise child marriage because of Muslim savagery) and so, as long as the passage quoting it is appropriately written, suppose there' no harm in including it. Relata refero (talk) 12:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- not only Sati, child marriage & purdah, the Muslims also brought non-vegetarian food (in particular, Pulao, Kabab & Kofta!), drinking and gambling to the Hindus.(p. 7) A 1500 page advanced history, with nary a reference in sight, makes for interesting reading. Doldrums (talk) 13:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
