Talk:Saraiki language
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Can people please sign their comments so we know who is talking, ~~~~ produces your name and time. Billlion 20:50, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Dispute about linguistic group
I moved the following that seemed to be a discussion from before teh beginning of the article.
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- Saraiki is defin initly not a Munda language. It is clearly an Indo-Aryan language as can be judged by the great amount of mutual intellingibility between Saraiki and Punjabi and Urdu and Hindi and Hindko and Sindhi.
Can someone provide some references to verify or contradict these claims? Billlion 21:44, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It was an old thesis of English linguists that SIRAIKI is an INDO_ ARYAN language ,but new research does not support it
Pakistani linguists claims that Urdu is not indo_aryan language ,but it belongs withit dravidian group. Dr Sohail Bukhri in his book "URDU KI ZUBAN" says that urdu is dravidian language . Ain-ul-Haq supports this thesis in his several writtings . A famous awarded articles is Wadi-isindh mein Drawari zabanoon ke baqiat
Asif khan says in his book "Punjabi da pichhokar" that Punjabi is not Indo-aryan language
When the language Urdu and punjabi languages are not Aryans then why Siraiki, the mother of these languages ,is Aryan language
Munda tribes were first inhabitants of INDUS VALLEY . Siraiki is language of this valley . There are several same words in Mudari and Siraiki language with same meanings ,also several name of villages are same with same traditions
Indeed it is not complete page .One should complete it.
Did some clean up of the article.
[edit] Origin of language
Siraiki is an old language of Indus valley ,now spoken in centeral Pakistan.It is presumed that this language is an Indo-iranian language related with Aryan languages family .It is idea of the English Linguists. I think it is not correct .Siraiki is oldest than Aryan languages .When Aryan reached in this area several Dravidian and Munda languages were being spoken here. When we study about vocabulary of Siraiki language ,we find sixty percent words of Dravidians and Munda languages in Siraiki language .Besides it phonetic system of Siraiki language is different form Aryan languages. Perhaps you know that now several linguists of Pakistan are admitting this idea like Ain-ul-Haq Faridkoti etc This Area (Centeral Pakistan) is the place of south Asia where history started its journy.When man reached here from East Africa,he was speaking the earliest language of human beings and it is the origin of Proto-Siraiki(PS) It is admitted fact that man started cultivation in this area on the bank of Sindhu,and till earliest words about cultivation are with same sounds in Siraiki language like Hala(Mandari) and Hal in Siraiki Several caste of Munda tribes like KHOL are living in Siraiki and Sindhi lands with the same name of Kehal First city of this area is JalilPur in district Khanewal. It is oldest city than Harappa and Moenjodaro. Therefore i may say that Siraiki language and civilization are the oldest language and civilization of the world ,and concept of Indo-Iranian about Siraiki is not correct. User:Rasoolpuri
- That's useful info, please feel free to incorporate this in the article, but please don't delete the stuff in curly brackets at the bottom this time, and also plese keep it encylocpedic, eg its not appropriate to write 'I think' in an encyclopedia article. Remember you can put in links to other articles where appropriate. Please have another go. Billlion 19:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Munda?
I'm sorry, I do not understand exactly how one edits on Wikipedia. I also am no expert on linguistics. But (forgive me if this sounds pretencious)as a Hindko Saraiki Punjabi Urdu speaker (my father is from Bahawalpur, my mother is from Abbotabad/Mansehra), Who grew up in Dhaka (World Bank brat) and is now studying Ottoman history in Paris (I also speak Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, Ottoman Turkish and English, French, Spanish and Chinese)
I have to say that if Saraiki and Urdu have Munda Dravidian heritage, then so do all North indian languages such as Bengali, Orissa, Gujarati. I have never heard any of these languages ever considered anything but Indo-Aryan languages.
I mean the link between our North Indian languages and Sanskrit is undeniable. Is Sanskrit a Munda language too? Maybe it is, I don't know, but I am very very suspicious of such a claim.
As a Pakistani I am only too familiar with our amateur historian/linguists who base many of their well intentioned theories on Victorian amateuer historans and their own intuition. While they are wonderful people who show a great love of learning these theories they come up with our usually just ridiculous twaddle. I fear that this is the case with the Saraiki Munda thesis.
Just because Saraiki has some munda words doesn't make it Dravidian. I mean Urdu is full of Arabic phrases, that doesn't mean its a Semetic language.
And finally to justify the unbelievably pretencious rant of my first paragraph, I say that as a speaker of languages in the Sino-Tibetan, Altaic, Semetic, and Indo-European language families I have a sense of whats related and what is not. And Urdu is closer to say Slovenian than Tamil. But this is just my own uneducated opinio
Mundari language
Before reaching Dravidians in indus valley( if they reached here from outside of this valley)there were living Austro_asiatic tribes .Once they had spread all over south asia .Munda tibes were of one of them .Munda tribes started a pre_dravidians civilization in this area.After birth of dravidians in this area as some writers say they devoloped famous indus civilization .Aryans reached here too late.There was strong tradion of culture,religion ,languages etc. They did not accept Aryan .There was a long fight between old habitants of indus valley and new commers as we may read in Rig Veda . Most tribes of Aryans were pushed to north India and with them some Munda tribes reached there .when Dravidians went to Balochistan and south India Several tribes mixed each other in indus valley .They were aryans ,dravidians,and munda tribes .They adopted the creeds ,traditions and languages of eachothers .Now it was a mixed language,and culture .It was not language of PIE.This was a language based on local languages of Indus valley.There were several different from PIE. There was different vocablary and there was different names of villages and diffenence tradtions from aryans . A grammar expert Panini was upset from this situation .He purify his language in the name of sanskrit . When we study of present languages of Pakistan like Siraiki .sindhi .and also Urdu and Punjabi .Its grammer is different from vedic language . These languages are based on that old languages which were being spoken in Indus valley .It is possible that one don't call these languages Munda language family ,but it is new theory that these languages are not Aryans.It is also being claimed that sanskrit itself is influenced with these languages
MUNDARI was main language language which was being spoken in indus valley during the period of Mundas .Therefore we may find several words of that Mundaris which are living now for from indus vally in th state of Jhar Khand .Although it is very different language from that proto_ mundari which was being spoken in the area of Indus valley .
Bengali etc are Aryian languages because Aryans were pushed in to that area. I don't say that some words change the origin of a language as you say like Arabic words in Urdu ,but there is different matter due to differet sounds ,grammer and old dictionary. This is not my thesis .It is a new thesis from Indian and Pakistani linguists--They say that this english thesis is based on some confusions or vested interests.If some one wants to say these languages as Aryan language.I have no objection
Aslam Rasoolpuri
[edit] The change in Spelling
There are currently two spellings for Seraiki on Wikipedia. There is consensus amongst Seraiki intellectuals on the official spellings as SERAIKI and not Siraiki. All Wikipedia entries should be modified accordingly. (Bloach 01:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC))
The article states that there are a mere 20000 speakers of the Seraiki language in India.
I encourage readers to analyze this statement.
At the time of partition of the country, when Hindus constituted between 40 and 60% of the population of the regions in Sindhi, Punjab and the Siaraiki region, the majority of the Hindus migrated to India, while a substantial population migrated to the UK and other countries.
How then can we say that there are only 20,000 Seraikis in India?
We are aware that in Delhi alone, there are about 2,500,000 Seraiki families, most of who identify themselves as Punjabis. Many of their children do not speak the language or have only heard it at home. Seraiki is getting assimilated or replaced by Punabi and Hindi, which of course is not an issue, neither social nor political for the Hindu Seraiki in India today. There are localities like Gujranwala town, Mianwali Nagar and others that are named after respective towns the "refugees" came from.
Apart from this group of the Seraiki diaspora, there are several cities and villages in the Indian Punjab, where the Seraikis settled. Rohtak for one, is virtually a resettlement of the Seraikis. Then there is a large population of Seraikis in Mumbai, Hyderabad, Bangalore and Madras/ Chennai and Indore, as also in several cities in Uttar Pradesh and Madya Pradhesh. Bangalore, my city, has at least 200 Multani families.
There might be 2 reasons for there being little information about the Seraiki Hindus.
1. Most Seraikis know themselves to be Multani, and not Seraiki, in India. They are unaware of the developments in Pakistan, both from the linguistic as well as the political spheres. Seraiki as a nomenclature was popularized much later, after partition. The word Seraiki was not very well known amont the migrants, who were largely uneducated or were exposed to newer education systems when they arrived in India. Although "Seraiki" used to identify the language in schools of the Seraiki system in pre-partition Pakistan, it was only known to those either the Seraiki elite or to those that attended Seraiki schools.
2. For various reasons, most Multanis in India identify themselves as Punjabi. Obviously our culture, customs and family names are common with the Punjabis, and Multanis may be considered a sub-group with the Punjabi nation, or perhaps the other way round (Multani as a language predates Punjabi and Sindhi,and may be considered the mother of the two).
The concept of Seraikistan would be welcome to most Multanis, who, like their Sindhi brothers, have no land to call their own. Although we have all the rights a citizen of India might have, we have no right on the land that speaks our language and culture. We are not allowed access to our cities and villages, have no right to buy property or live in our own country.
The idea of a Seraiki Nation is welcome and policy makers and people involved in the Seraiki movement must take cognizance of the large Seraiki diaspora in India and abroad to mobilize support and resources.
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