Talk:Sarah Brown (spouse)

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[edit] Name

  • Shouldn't this page be moved to "Sarah Brown", as the article itself states she changed her name to that after her marriage. The article also repeatedly refers to her as "Macaulay", which I don't think is right,, especially after her marriage. Jamandell (d69) 17:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
    • There's already is an article called Sarah Brown for an American actress and I can't think of a disambiguation in parentheses that doesn't sound sexist, as if her only role in life is being someone's wife. --Philip Stevens 18:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, after July 27 she could be Sarah Brown (Wife of Prime Minster)? Or perhaps the other Sarah Brown can be changed to Sarah Brown (actress) to allow this one to change to plain Sarah Brown. Jamandell (d69) 01:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Sarah Macaulay → Sarah Brown — Soon she will be the most notable Sarah Brown, as stated above, Macaulay is her maiden name and not what she's known as now. —Philip Stevens 19:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Oppose the current proposal. Sarah Brown (actress) is currently more notable and "soon will be the most notable" is not a reason to move the article now. Support a move to Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's wife) or any other acceptable title with disambiguator and creation of Sarah Brown as a disambiguation page. When the relative notability changes, the articles titles can change too (-- the beauty of Wikipedia). —  AjaxSmack  22:49, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support the proposal. Moving the article to Sarah Brown will be much simpler than having Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's wife) and as has been mentioned, is a lot less sexist/derogatory. Sarah Brown (actress) would be good for the current Sarah Brown article in order for this article to become the Sarah Brown article. Jamandell (d69) 20:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose taking over the disambiguation page. I see three possible uses (ignoring the redlinks and nonlinks, and I'll be watchlisting that page for tidying while I'm here), and I think it's very parochial (as well as crystal balling) to state that the spouse of a British Prime Minister is indisputably going to be the most notable SB at some point in the future (and not even for long if he doesn't win the next election). Whether or not it's a damning indictment of western culture's slavish attachment to the glass teat, a multi-Emmy winning cast member on the longest running soap in the USA is going to be notable, especially to our pop-culture biased readership. Support keeping the actress at Sarah Brown (actress), and moving Gordon's bird from current, outdated page name, but I think we still need a parenthetical disambiguator and a plain Sarah Brown dab page. --DeLarge 15:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:
"Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's wife)" sounds incredibly sexist to me. It sounds as if the only thing she has ever done in her entire life is get married. What would Germaine Greer say to that? When GB becomes PM, she'll become much more notable that a former General Hospital actress. --Philip Stevens 06:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
You said it. Despite the unsavoury politics of it, this Sarah Brown's sole current claim to encyclopedic notability is being the wife of the future PM. Likely she will gain her own notability once the handover occurs and this will be an argument for her being the primary topic in the future. As far as sexism goes, she does not deny being Brown's wife but if "Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's spouse)" would be more pleasing to the ears, that will do (after ca. 27 June 2007). —  AjaxSmack  08:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
"Sarah Macaulay Brown (PR professional)" would be it, wouldn't it? 132.205.44.134 22:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 17:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name (again)

We urgently need to move this page to Sarah Brown (something), as this article clearly states, "Sarah is always Sarah Brown - she dropped Macauley the day she got married to the then chancellor." So the current page title is contrary to naming conventions.

However, per the above discussion, perhaps we should come to a consensus on what the appropriate disambiguation should be. I can see as possiblities:

  • Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's wife)
  • Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's spouse)
  • Sarah Brown (neé Macaulay)
  • Sarah Macaulay Brown (PR professional)
  • Sarah Macaulay Brown (public relations executive)

Or a combination thereof. Any suggestions? I quite like Sarah Brown (neé Macaulay) myself. Cheers, DWaterson 11:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguators should be something that the person is known for. "Sarah Brown (neé Macaulay)" simply doesn't meet this. (It's also a bit POV in semi-reimposing the maiden name upon a woman who has chosen not to use it and who is not known for it.) Harsh as it may be, she is frankly only well known because she is Gordon Brown's wife and so the first two seem about the only options. But "Sarah Brown" must be the main title. Timrollpickering 13:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
  • What about Sarah Macaulay Brown? --Philip Stevens 13:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't appear to have any currency - only 7 Ghits and only one of them (in Spanish!) appears to actually use that combination. DWaterson 17:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
"Sarah Macaulay Brown" would be a mainly American construction that isn't common in the UK and again isn't a form she actually uses. The name used in the title (rather than in brackets) should be a name the subject themselves uses or are known by, not have middle and maiden names added in simply for disambiguation. I think Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's wife) is the best option. Timrollpickering 17:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Change this article to "Sarah Brown" and change the other Sarah Brown article to "Sarah Brown (actress)". In my opinion it's the only appropriate solution Jamandell (d69) 23:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I've been bold and moved the page to its current location so as to get her current surname into the title. I appreciate the disambiguation tag may not be the best but ongoing discussion has been keeping the article at a plainly wrong location for a while now. Timrollpickering 13:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What about Sarah (Macaulay) Brown? That would indicate that she does not use that form of the name. I don't believe that her article should ever go to Sarah Brown with no disambiguation, because "Sarah Brown (actress)" is famous in America, has been for years, and it is quite likely Gordon Brown's wife will never reach that level of fame in the US. Cherie Blair still isn't that famous in the US after her husband's 10 years in office. While "Sarah Brown (Prime Minister's wife)" does seem a bit odd, it is better than the use of Sarah Brown with no disambiguation. There is no reason Sarah Brown (PM's wife) should take precedence over that distinction when the actress has had an article on her own achievements for years, and this SB didn't have an article until her husband took office. (For those Brits who may not know, an Emmy is the highest honour a television actress can achieve in America, and she has won three of them.)--Gloriamarie 17:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The US doesnt get priority over the rest of the world. You write as if we are making a US encyclopedia whereas in fact this is an international encyclopedia, so whether she becomes well known in the US is no more relevant than if she becomes well known in China, SqueakBox 17:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying that the US gets priority over the rest of the world; in fact, I was saying that the UK doesn't gain priority over the rest of the world by way of its prime minister's wife gaining precedence over a Wikipedia subject known many years previously for her own accomplishments. The fact is that this is the English-speaking version of Wikipedia, and the US is a prominent example of an English-speaking country, so concerns over who is better known there are actually quite relevant for discussion.--Gloriamarie 22:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
That forms comes back to the problem that a) she is hardly known at all by her maiden name (certainly far far less than Cherie Blair/Booth and almost into the same realm of trying to use Johnson and/or Wagstaff for uniquely identifying Norma Major) when any disambiguation tag should be the thing for which she is known; b) it looks like a name form that just isn't used (other than women who keep their maiden name or combine it with their husbands as a double-barrelled name, British women generally completely replace their maiden name with their husband's and only use "neé [maiden name]" as a suffix when they need to identify themselves for whatever reason); and c) it does feel wrong to be adding a maiden name back to a woman who has not choosen to use it in married life. Timrollpickering 00:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
A slight improvement to the current name that occurred to me would be Sarah Brown (wife of Prime Minister) or Sarah Brown (spouse of Prime Minister) which gets rid of the possessive apostrophe that some people may have objections to. Cheers, DWaterson 09:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Any change will need to also be applied to Margaret MacDonald (Prime Minister's wife), although I think that page is very badly named. Margaret MacDonald died in 1911 and her husband didn't become Prime Minister until 1924. Timrollpickering 14:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I would agree with that change; it's an improvement-- (wife of Prime Minister).--Gloriamarie 22:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
How about Sarah Brown (spouse)? Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Officeholder

Can someone find a more appropriate infobox - or at least change the titling shown? 'Spouse of the PM' is not an office. If anything it's a coincidence resulting from one's spouse happening to go into politics. So it's wrong to describe someone as being 'incumbent' or 'assuming office'. I can tolerate 'incumbent' as I cannot think of a better term, but since there is no office to assume, I cannot see how Sarah (or Cherie, or Norma, or Dennis, etc) can have assumed office.

I do think that having an infobox is useful for the quick summary of data that it gives - but leaving the box as is gives a very confusing message to wikipedians who aren't eentirely up on the British constitution.

Many thanks

Grblundell 09:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

- much better. Many thanks Grblundell 12:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The current infobox still implies that "Spouse of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" is some sort of official state title, which (as that article makes clear) it isn't. 217.155.20.163 21:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Is that any improvement? Timrollpickering 21:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)