User talk:Saposcat/Archive 2

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[edit] User:Cool Cat/In many languages...

Thank you for the Turkish and Ottoman translation —Cat out 17:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Literature Addendum

Turkish literature is the collection of written and oral texts composed in the Turkish language, either in its Ottoman form or in less exclusively literary forms, such as that spoken in the Republic of Turkey today.

I think the main reason I destest it so is simply that although Turkish literature is the subject, Turkish language seems to almost usurp it with the larger, latter portion of the sentece describing technicalities of Turkish language--it seems (not a de facto run-on, but a sentence that is too long/trying to include too much) strage to me. Anyway, good luck.

PS Turkish literature is composted in the Turkish language ... the extra information is the definition of the Turkish languge, but seems to become the focus of the sentence by taking up over 50% (by word count) of it.

[edit] Help me

I do no have a script that I can come up with a single sentence, which I'm trying obviously. This War had a very different structure than the links that you have pasted on my page, or being bold "other independance wars", which have clear-cut opposition. I personally like the term "Birth of a nation", given the wide range of activities. The page also missing a huge campaign at the south. I wish I could have access to french documents. You have to help me if you want to come-up with a single sentence, that is not easy. —OttomanReference 14:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks Sapo for correcting the spelling on my userpage. Cheers. —Szvest 14:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™

[edit] The word ordu in Turkish or persian?

About the name of Ordubad. I have heard of you from Khoikhoi. For one of Wikipedia's articles (meaning of the name of Ordubad a city in Azerbaijan), I need the to find the origin of word "ordu".

I believe Ordubad is a Persian name. Because "bad" is a Persian suffix means town and nobody have no problem with it. The word "ordu" is used in Azeri and Persian Turkish but may have a Persian origin. In Turkish it means army and in Persian it also means camp or army. I could find this word in old Persian literature. I bring an example from an old Persian literature written by Khwaju Kermani (1280- ?), a Persian sufi and poet from south of Iran. The existence of it in old Iranian texts may indicate the Persian origin of this word and in my idea Azeris probably adopted it from Persian.

خوشا چشمي که بيند روي ترکان
خنک بادي که آرد بوي ترکان
مي نوشين و نوشا نوش مستان
در اردو هاياهوي ترکان
دل شيرافکنان افتاده در دام
ز روبه بازي آهوي ترکان

The rough translation of the second line is:

"Drink and enjoy drinking drunkenly, while beauties are chanting in the camp (ordu)."

Also there are other formats of this word in Persianlike orduzadan ("to camp"). What is your idea? Do Turks adopt this word from Persian? Or Persians from Turks?

Thanks, Behmod 04:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC).

Hi. Indeed, it’s interesting to know your opinion, but please also have a look at my talk, where I tried to explain the origins of the word. Regards, Grandmaster 12:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind, I checked your response to Behmod. I agree, it’s got to be a Turkic word, because the word орда (orda) in Russian language also derived from Turkic ordu, and it’s unlikely that Russians borrowed it from Persian, because historically they had more contact with Turks than Persians. Also, there’s a city called Ordu in Turkey, and many towns and cities with this name in Russia and Central Asia. Grandmaster 13:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I checked different sources. Ordu in Persian means “group of people” and probably is just a homophone with Turkish term ordu, means "army". This word is a Indo-Eruoean and does not have Altaic origin. It has the same origin with heorde in old English, herd in modern English, herde in German and Kheordu in P.Gmc and other terms in other Indo-European languages. Also, in Persian other than ordu words like “ordugah” and “orduzadan” are existed which are different formats of this word in Persian language. Ordu is not used as army and Persian has the term “lashkar” used for army. —Behmod 09:17, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your clarification. The reason that I did not answer you because I am still looking for etymology of this word and I wanted to come back after a complete research. I thought you are a linguist, that is why I asked you this question, but I appreciate your useful helps. By the way, do you know any Turkish linguist? —Behmod 14:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
ordu or urdu in ottoman writing and readig are same meanings. Also oranda(kalabalık aile) in türkish comes from or-du or-anda du dudu means abla bacıyan. ordubat, boyabat, akçaaabat. —3210 11:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
With regard to the etymology of the name of Ordubad please see encyclopedia Iranica. The article about Ordubad says:
The Turco-Persian name "army town" implies a foundation during the period of the Mongol invasions or the ensuing Il-Khanid one, especially as the Il-Khanids made Azerbaijan the center of their power. Certainly, Hamd-Allah Mostawfi (writing in the mid-14th century) describes it as a provincial town, one of the five towns making up the tuman of Nakhjavan, with fine gardens, and producing good grapes, corn and cotton. [1]
So it’s indeed of mixed Turko-Persian origin, as I was saying, Turkic ordu meaning army, and Persian bad meaning town. Grandmaster 12:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The word "Ordu" is a Turkic word, it fits the Turkic language system and has been used since ancient times. "Bad" is Persian, so Grandmaster is correct, its a Turkish word with a Persian addition.


--Johnstevens5 16:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The name ordubad mentioned in writen from 5th century which no turk was living in area on that time. how name can be turkish or any turkik root? link : http://www.world66.com/europe/azerbaijan/naxcivan/ordubad/history

--asheemak 12:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Hi Saposcat,

Do you think the Oghuz Turks page should be moved to Oğuz Turks? I know the former spelling is much more common, but thanks to development of the UTF charsets as the browser standard, the latter spelling is now possible. Just wanted your opinion, thanks. —Khoikhoi 17:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I suppose the current title is fine, also because of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Cheers. —Khoikhoi 21:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eyüp Sabri Kartal

Actually, the person is User:3210. And there is an article about them on the Turkish Wikipedia, but I guess they aren't that notable. —Khoikhoi 20:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for my late reply. I think he's starting to get mad at us! Yes, I highly recommend that you AfD the article, and see what others have to say. Personally, I don't get why this guy wants the article kept so bad, I'm glad that he supports Wikipedia however. Kolay gelsin. —Khoikhoi 04:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
No problem! —Khoikhoi 00:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't metter for afd. I think every managers bios should be in WP.Kaymakams defenetly shold be in WP for local historian sake.--85.98.233.99 11:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Afd error

hello. I just deleted your submission to afd because it was formatted wrong, and only came up as a red link. Did you follow all the steps that are required to submit it to the afd page? Ask me if you have any questions. Thetruthbelow Image:Wikipedia minilogo.gif(talk) 06:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure. If it still doesn't work, I can take a whack at it. Cheers! Thetruthbelow Image:Wikipedia minilogo.gif(talk) 06:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IP: 85.165.4.79

Hi! User:85.165.4.79, also known as User:Johnstevens5 who is messing up the Fuzuli article, was also trying to falsefy the Babur article and Alisher Navoi article. We should have an eye on his contributions: [2] Tajik 18:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thx for your reply. It seems to me that right now most of the article is "stolen" from the following web-site: [3] We should make sure that there are no copy-right issues. Besides that, I have reverted my own mistake that "Jami was Nava'i's teacher". The two were good friends and - in fact - Nava'i has dedicated one of his works to Jami.
I also think that it is totally wrong wrong to present Nava'i as some kind of "anti-Persian, Turkic hero" because Nava'is defence of Turkish literature was not ment to defame or fight Persian. Nava'i himself composed the work "Tarikh Muluk-e Ajam", "History of the Persian people", in which he shows much respect for the Persian culture he considered himself a part of.
Nava'i's defence of his mother-tongue was a plea to other Turkic-speaking authors not only to wrinte in Persian or Arabic, but also in their own mother-tongue, and he wanted them to not forget where they came from: from the stepps of Central-Asia.
Only the fact that Nava'i also wrote poems in Arabic and Hindi totally disproves the pan-turkist claims that he was a "Turkish nationalist", because nationalism did not have any meaning to Nava'i or any other one 500 years ago. Tajik 14:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kaymakam Article

Sory to be late.It doesn't metter for afd. I think every managers bios should be in WP. Kaymakams defenetly shold be in WP for local historian sake. Thank you for Template:User osm-3 for me. İt is really very nice.Thanks again. —3210 16:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

thank you so much for kaymakam article edition. clearer explanation with examples are nice. I am sory I have forgotten some level of my English. It may not be propor words in my editions. Thanks God you do right my wrongs. —3210 16:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More problems with User:Johnstevens5

Hello Saposcat. This user is VERY OBVIOUSLY pushing for an extrem anti-Persian propaganda. After vandalizing various articles regarding Alisher Navoi and Babur, he has now taken on the Ulugh Beg article. He has even changed the quote from Britannica in order to make his pan-turkic version look "right": [4] While the original text of the Britannica 1911 says "Persian scientist" [5], he has changed the word "Persian" into "Turkish" and claims that his change was based on the info available in Britannica.

Tajik 22:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Dear Sir, would you help me to create a wikipedia which in ottoman language? Because turkish wikipedia is going to madness in AFD . You can fallow my strong critisizm in Turkish wikipedia in tr:WP:SAM I think we need a new and defferent way for free ansiklopedia in Turkey.Would you please help me to do it. Best regards —3210 22:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding this edit

You just couldn't help yourself, could you? :p —Khoikhoi 04:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I know exactly what you're talking about! —Khoikhoi 05:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LOL!

Some people just can't take a joke, Jesus Christ. Can you translate my comment here for my new friend? —Khoikhoi 14:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that guy was an Avar, one of the worst people to joke about Stalin with, because Stalin deported all of them to Kazakhstan during WWII. —Khoikhoi 14:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
He replied in Turkish - can you translate this? —Khoikhoi 04:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, I'm going to go with this rule and ignore the guy, then revert about a week later. Then I can show off my evil Stalinist tricks. :D —Khoikhoi 06:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
As for me being Azeri, I guess that's cool. His tone of voice definately contradicts Johnstevens' preaching of "Azeris are the same people as Turks of Turkey!". —Khoikhoi 06:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I just saw your comment to me in my archive page. That's similar to the case of Leyla Zana, I'm sure you've heard of her. And then again there's also Orhan Pamuk, the list goes on and on! —Khoikhoi 17:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fuzuli

I don't know if you are familiar with these sources, but some of them are very interesting: [6] [7] [8] [9] Grandmaster 11:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where is your source of your claims?

The text you claim is source Foundation of Ottoman Empire needs verification that it is a source text. I guess, you know that you have to prove that claim, as I have seen that text couple years ago, which its English was very old English. The first three paragraphs were added by me, after I found the text under Osman I. I do not know the rest, but it does not read as "History of Ottoman Turks". I believe there was some work done on it. It can not be qualified as a source if you can not prove it is word by word same. Good luck! --OttomanReference 12:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poetry

Thanks for edits, and certainly dig deeper if you feel like it. It looks like you're involved in the Turkish wikipedia as well - I'd love to see the Poetry article reflect more on Turkish poetry as well. Sam 22:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, the article on poetic feet is a good next project. Somewhere on the horizon I want to do some work on the History of Poetry, which is even more pitiful, but I think after this current little episode I won't be ready for a project that large for a while. I'm going to be gone a couple days, and we'll see what additional feedback comes back on Poetry. Sam 13:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting article

Hey Saposcat,

Have you seen the article Yunus Emre, by any chance? Perhaps you could clean it up. —Khoikhoi 06:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I know exactly what you're talking about. Remember TuzsuzDeliBekir? When he first came here he was ranting about how he was a proud nationalist and all, and it's pretty obvious based on the folklore stuff on his userpage. Anyways, he used a sockpuppet to vote at an AfD, which was how I found out about Yunus Emre.
This is also similar to the music of Edvard Grieg—most of it was based off of Norwegian folk music, and of course he was also a strong nationalist. Well, anyways, good luck on the article. Adios. —Khoikhoi 03:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Another question, is the anon correct here? —Khoikhoi 00:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I get it. Thanks. —Khoikhoi 05:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] article is sick

ben sizin çalışmalara şapka çıkarıyorum bir sürü uyuzun arasında helal olsun ... harita mevzuu falan çok komik mesela osmanlı devleti günümüzdeki somali-eritre-etiyopya bölgesinde bir beylerbeyilik bile kurmuştur ama adamlar onu bile kabul etmiyorlar ... canımı sıktılar ingilizcemde rezalet olduğu için onu yazma isteği duydum oraya ...

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[edit] Re: Noble Eightfold Path

Thanks for fixing this! JD79 01:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Central Asia

WikiProject Central Asia has finally been created! If you're interested, please consider joining us. Aelfthrytha 21:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gelmek

Oy![10]

[edit] Armenian Tactfulness Day

Hey there. If I remember correctly, I was letting Raul know about it (as he's responsible for scheduling front-page FAs) - we'd had someone write complaining about it and I hadn't spoken to him at the time we got the letters. There were about three or four of them, if I recall rightly - enough to be unusual, we don't normally get letters about the front-page article selection - and it seemed best to let him know there'd been complaints.

I didn't find it insensitive myself, but I can see where they're coming from; it's the (percieved) "celebrating Turkey" aspects rather than the article itself. It did highlight an interesting problem, though - if we do have timing-related sensitivities, we need to be alert to the fact that people will see it on the days either side (because they look whilst it's a different day local time).

It's a good article, by the way - well done. Shimgray | talk | 12:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ottoman Wiki!

Hello, Saposcat!

I have seen that you speak Ottoman quite well. I want to ask you if you can log onto Metawiki and add you support to my proposal for an Ottoman Wikipedia here. I want users to add support for this Wiki, and I hope that if it becomes reality, Ottoman learners like you will help in it's development. Please add your support soon!--Fox Mccloud 15:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Arabic)#poll for standard transliteration. I noticed that you previously contributed to the discussions on Arabic. thanks. Cuñado - Talk

[edit] Request

Hey Saposcat,

How have you been? I noticed in the Subdivisions of the Ottoman Empire article there's a section called "Eyalets in 1609", in addition to similar lists down the article. They show the Ottoman Turkish Name for the eyalets, but in the Latin script. I personally think they should include both: the name in the Ottoman Turkish script and then the transliteration. I was wondering if you could add them—you don't have to do it for all the sections, perhaps just the first list. Thanks in advance.

P.S. Missing from the list is Kurdistan Province, Ottoman Empire, I'm not where it should be worked into the text.

—Khoikhoi 19:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem! Whenever you have the time. What song is that by the way? :) —Khoikhoi 03:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Heh, I forgot all about that. Thanks anyways! —Khoikhoi 05:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ALA-LC

I must say I have some problems with the ALA-LC transcription method, although it has the advantage that conformance with modern Turkish spelling is more or less retained. In analogy with other Turkic languages such as Azerbaijani and with the current transcription system of Persian, I would prefer transcribing ﻕ as q rather than ḳ (a letter I could not find in Unicode). Another transcription I am not too fond of, is ñ for ﯓ; if a special character is to to be used, that might as well be ŋ.

Whatever transcription method is used, I think it should be mentioned and linked to on every article where it is applied. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 10:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Obviously I was poorly informed about the Ottoman script. Could you recommend an Ottoman grammar?
I wonder, if both ق and ك are velar plosives in Ottoman Turkish, how is it that hakikat is pronounced like haqıykat in modern Turkish, rather than hakʲîkat? (See Lewis' Turkish grammar, first chapter, if I remember correctly.) Also note the difference between kar and kâr.
By the way, my suggestion for Ottoman transcription would be to apply that only to the introduction, and not throughout the article, where modern Turkish transcription should in my opinion should be used. I find the transcription `Abdu'lḥamîd useful, but not very attractive.

As I've argued before, there should be separate guidelines for transcribing Ottoman Turkish, apart from Arabic, I think we agree on this. Where should that be proposed? On Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Arabic)?--Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 11:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English

'Stress' is not an acceptable replacement for 'suffering'. Please do not change it again. If English is not your first language please do not make this sort of edit in general. I am aware that many scholars have suggested other words for 'suffering', but 'suffering' is the orthodox translation. Rentwa 15:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the point of the brackets? Why have you failed to discuss this either on your talk page, my talk page or the article talk page? If you keep messing with the article you leave me no alternative but to ask an administrator to protect the page. Do you understand what 'no original research' means? Wikipedia:No Original Research Rentwa 06:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Then remove the Thanissaro quotation since it contains a non orthodox translation. I'm sure we can find one that uses 'suffering' to express the meaning. Rentwa 06:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Here is one that uses 'dukkha' which we may translate ourselves, in the orthodox manner, as 'suffering'. Quoting original research/unorthodox views is tantamount to original research and your protestations are insincere in my view. Furthermore I was an academic until recently, please do not lecture me on academic standards :) . Rentwa 06:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate your suggestion, but I disagree! The article is 'the eightfold path', an unorthodox translation is a distraction. If the only sources that exist are derived from Thanissaro (I'm in the Zen/Mahayana tradition, so I'm not familiar with Theravada) then we should remove the quotation.
If you think the meaning of the quotation sheds light on the article (which I happen to think it does) then I suggest we include a looser translation in the body of the text and disregard the author and unorthodox translation. I would be surprised, however, if no translation of this sutta, or its Mahayana equivalent (if there is one) can be found which corresponds to the normal vocabulary. Rentwa 07:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome. The brackets are fine, then at the moment. I will prepare a looser translation and replace the quote sometime in the next few days. If you don't like it (I'm sure you'll find fault with it - you're a linguist and I'm a mathematician after all :) ) please revert to the -sq bracket- suffering -sq bracket- form and we'll discuss it again :) . Rentwa 07:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I have made the changes essentially as I proposed, in three sequential edits so you can see how I've done it. Basically I removed a few words prior to the quote, altered the punctuation of the quote and removed the brackets. The ref to Tanissaro remains - it perhaps requires a note (at the end with the refernce so as not to distract from the text, I would suggest). Let me know what you think. Rentwa 20:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opinions

Your opinions are very well thought out and highly informed! Do you have any you'd like to share at the Wikipedia:Zen Collaboration of the Month page? If you do I'd be most grateful! :) Rentwa 16:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mindfulness / Memory

Can we discuss the mindfulness / memory issue too? I think 'sometimes translated as memory' would not be out of place, although I haven't found a source for this as yet. Rentwa 22:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to start an edit war, and I appreciate your sentiment that we should work together on this, but I do feel that you're being incredibly strict in your approach!

I'll keep searching for a reliable source (hopefully up to your standards!) Rentwa 22:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

My bad on that, sorry. I didn't check the current version. I don't like the cognitive psych. stuff (I take it we're in agreement on that). My opinion is that the whole article is a bit of a mess, and has become something of a battleground. I think we could remove the cognitive psych. stuff to a new article, which may quieten things down, but I'll check the talk page before wading in again. Ignore what I said about strictness too, I don't blame you in view of all the nonsense this page has been attracting. Rentwa 10:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moving of Ottoman sultans

Hey, would you mind fixing the double redirects for all the pages you moved? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 15:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, it's quite easy actually. Once you move a page (i.e. ‘Abdu’l-Hamid II --> `Abdu’l-ḥamîd-i sânî), you go to the "what links here" button found on the left side of every page. Then look for links that say "redirect page" next to them. Click on one of them (i.e. Abdul-Hamid II). Then edit the page, and replace the old title of the page with the new one. Hope that helped! —Khoikhoi 06:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ta :)

Thanks for the offer :) . You couldn't help correcting the template placement, could you? :D Thanks though, I'll put it in the proper place. Good luck with the house move. Rentwa 06:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fuzûlî

Hi,

The problem with "va" and "o" in persian is that both are spelled in the same way!

I am a native persian speaker, and I tell you that more often than not, in poems the persian word for "and" is pronounced "o". Do you have any source on why in this case, it is "rend va zahed" and not "rend o zahed"?

best wishes Arash the Bowman 08:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another request

Hi Saposcat,

When you have the time, can you please add Sinan's full name ("Koca Mimar Sinan Agha") in Ottoman Turkish? Also perhaps the transliteration needs to be corrected. Thanks! —Khoikhoi 00:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, it looks great now. :) I like the idea of an Ottoman Turkish Wikipedia—I hope it grows. —Khoikhoi 05:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ta :)

Nice edit on Ten Bulls, it was a bit messy the way I had it. I'm back from holiday and have a little work to do over the weekend and maybe into next week, but I'll get started on the 'Buddhism and Psychology' article asap.

My reasoning for trying to seperate the detailed commentary on the Eightfold Path is that if we can get an introduction which is as basic and uncontroversial (and therefore definitive) as possible it should prevent the back and forth of nuances of translation and doctrine. The subsequent detailed commentary section could then accomodate each and every shade of interpretation quite happily (assuming they conformed to encyclopedic standards). In the present format, the conflict seems to arise from the rival claims as to what is the 'definitive' meaning of each of the eight steps.

Hope all is going smoothly with the move (I visited Istanbul about 20 years ago and liked it very much - I had chilli, eggs and tomatoes in the Pudding shop). Rentwa 10:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gutei

As long as there's a redirect from 'Gutei' (the name I'm familiar with) I don't have any personal feelings on the name of the main article.

However, Nat Krause mentioned that 'Gutei' was wrong. I suggested moving it but Nat thought it was better leaving it where it was for the time being. I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that this is in anticipation of some attempt at a standard policy / style guide on Asian names. I have absolutely no knowledge in this area, so I can't really suggest anything, except to stay with the move and raise the matter with Nat. From a layman's perspective it doesn't seem to be too complicated to write a simple style guide for Chinese names into roman alphabet, or at least initiate some kind of discussion, especially if it conformed to one of the existing schemes.

On the matter of which name I would think that for a person who has taken a new name after joining a religious sect, it's proper henceforth to address them by the new name. In the case of Gutei this is slightly problematic, since I gathered from the research that his 'religous name' was taken from the area where his hermitage was and perhaps not conferred ceremonially.

As to the appelation (is this the term I want?) 'one fingered', this is again problematic. We call the Dalai Lama by his title, but this is official. We call Bodhidharma 'Bodhidharma', but was he formally given this name, or is it a respectful / affectionate nickname?

My opinion would be that we can justify 'one fingered' on traditional usage and acceptance of the name by generations of Zen students.

Hope this helps. Aren't you impressed by globetrotting credentials? :) Rentwa 12:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nice job!

Nice job tracking that down! Rentwa 14:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Literature (Ottoman section, question about Ottoman Folk Literature and Ottoman fiction

Hi the Ottoman Divan Literature section is very well written. However, also of high importance in Ottoman literature was Ottoman folk Literature which had become very developed with its own unique styles aswell, the "arzu" poetic metre is mentioned (“fâ’ilâtün fâ’ilâtün…”) for "Divan" style but there was also the hesab-ı benân (hece ölçüsü) for "Halk" style in the Ottoman era and many famous Divan writters also used this style.

This site has information on many famous, Ottoman folk literature writters, I thought I'd share it with you aswell.

http://www.osmanlimedeniyeti.com/Bilgi/Osmanlı%20Dönemi%20Halk%20Edebiyatı

Also on the article it says there are no examples of "fiction" writting, however, there are many fiction stories from the Ottoman era, they typically began like this with an over the top introduction.

İNCİLİ YORGAN

Eflatun Cem Güney


Evvel zaman içinde

Kalbur saman içinde

Cinler cirit oynarken

Eski hamam içinde

Bir serçe kanadım

Kırk katıra yüklettim

Ne az gittim, ne uz gittim

Kaf dağına ilettim

Bir nefeste erittim

O dağların karını

Dikilmedik ağacın

Orda yedim narını

Eğrilmedik iplikle

Ne çulhalar dokudum

Elif dedim be dedim

Dağı, taşı okudum

Bir sinek bir kartalı

Sallayıp vurdu yere

Yalan değil, gerçektir

Yer yarıldı birdenbire

Kerpiç koydum kazana

Poyraz ile kaynattım

Nedir diye sorana

Şu masalı anlattım.

Regards

--Johnstevens5 16:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)