Talk:Santa Claus's reindeer

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Holidays, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Holiday-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can see a list of objectives or join the project.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents

[edit] Prancer note

So far, only Prancer has received his own widely theatrically released movie.

01:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)~Enda80

194.125.181.44 20:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The movie Prancer has a sequel to it too called Prancer's Return. Where are the articles for those movies? Just about all the other movies ever made have their own Wikipedia article. Why don't those two have one?
--200.44.7.69 19:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Donder Note

Many people read Donder's name wrong. It is widely thought that his name is Donner. Though upon reading the poem in most books it appears as Donner instead of Donder. I accidentally fixed the common mistake when I wasn't logged in so If anyone from Wikkipedia needs to get in touch with me I edited it.

10:05 PM 29 November 2008 (Eastern Standard Time) ~OhNo789

This is true, and makes sense due to the fact that Donder makes sense to be with Blitzen as blitzen is German for lightning and donder is German for thunder. Beside of the info already given, next to the reindeer's info, I added this info.

Sabishii_Kage 00:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reindeer pics?

why isn,t there any pics, at all??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.125.181.44 (talk) 20:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Descriptions

Where do the descriptions of the eight original reindeer come from? The original poem only mentions their name, not their gender or qualities?

Good question. Over Christmas break I'll try to source the unsourced material and remove anything with no good background. --Merond e 10:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup Removed

Cleanup notice removed as article seemed fine to me - and no one stated what needed changing. Davymast 20:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Hannah the red-nosed reindeer

Does anyone have information about this ?

I don't see this confirmed anywhere else. I do see other names that were considered before Rudolph but no Robert.

Could this be a hoax ?

85.168.249.43 01:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources and balance needed

I've removed the following for now, as uncited and probably unbalanced:

"In old European lore, St. Nicholas traveled with a horned creature that would not only bear the load for its master, but also punish naughty children. In many depictions this creature resembled a goat (which varied in form, sometimes being a very demonic looking goat, at other times the Devil, complete with pitchfork and tail). In Austria, this goat/demon creature is still known as Krampus. The transformation of Christmas to the New World (specifically the United States) was one in which numerous customs related to Christmas which had obvious pagan roots and/or involved various forms of debauchery were abandoned (and in some cases made illegal). Other customs were merely changed to something more acceptable to the puritan population. It is believed that the Reindeer as they appeared in the poem A Visit From St. Nicholas were a safer and more benign version of Krampus, the demonic goat which accompanied St. Nick in earlier traditions."

FT2 (Talk | email) 13:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apostrophe

Can someone change the redirections for this page? The possessive of Claus is Claus's, not Claus', so the main article should be Santa Claus's reindeer with the error entry leading to the correct entry, not vice versa as it is now. Alpheus 20:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Before I attempt to correct the alleged error, can you cite a source (on or off Wikipedia) that addresses this grammar issue? --Merond e 08:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Here, this site from Carnegie Mellon University shows how to form possessives. It should be Claus's. Being an English teacher, I was appalled at this as well. --Cyrus Andiron 17:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I second this. —simpatico talk 07:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree as well. And Wikipedia discusses the issue here. 91.107.161.216 (talk) 02:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I concur. As I learned it, "s'" is to be used for possessives of plurals, and possessives of singulars that end in s should use "s's" instead. - JMyrleFuller (talk) 14:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Y Done - Santa Claus' reindeer now redirects to Santa Claus's reindeer.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 04:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kevin? (and other reindeer that don't exist)

"Kevin, the reindeer they don't like to talk about"? Where exactly does this come from? I Just Kissed Al Pacino December 14 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.213.77 (talk) 02:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Probably just vandalism. Unless it has a legitimate source, it's probably fake. - JMyrleFuller (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article largely restructured, and some suggestions

Hello. I've done some extensive restructuring of this article per the tag at the top. This is just a starting point, but hopefully it reads better now. I also removed some tidbits that didn't seem to have a place.

I also have some suggestions:

  • The descriptions of the reindeer need some sources. Where does that information come from, since it wasn't in the original poem? I, for one, have never heard of the reindeer having personalities/powers, though I find that interesting.
  • The additional reindeer section should most likely only include the most notable/enduring new reindeer (if there are any besides Rudolph). Otherwise, I might change that section to reindeer in pop culture, or something similar.
  • There was one part I removed ("In some countries, such as Norway, Sweden and Finland, Santa's reindeer traditionally do not fly (but they are sometimes depicted flying).") that I was going to put in the Trivia section, but that felt like, well, trivializing other cultures. I think there needs to be a section on non-American reindeer lore that maybe details different countries' versions of Santa's transportation/animal companions.

I've also heard that much Christmas lore is based on pagan traditions. If anyone wants to do the research on whether Moore (or whoever authored the poem) drew from that and/or Christian tradition, I'd really like to read it, if there's any out there. :) I believe that would fill the article out quite a bit. —simpatico talk 07:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protection

This article has been semi-protected for a week due to changes (some in good faith) by IP Addresses to the names of the reindeer. Happy Holidays!   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 03:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The page is likely to be frequently consulted for just this information over the next few days and it is reasonable for us to maintain stability and accuracy. TerriersFan (talk) 03:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
You are correct, of course. I was just trying to explain. Anyone who feels compelled to change the names of the reindeer should really read the whole article first. Season's Greetings!   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 03:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
No problem, so was I. Merry Christmas! TerriersFan (talk) 04:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] L. Frank Baum

Should this article make mention of Baum's explination for reindeer in The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus? In Baum's story, reindeer are set apart from regular deer as they are the only ones the Knooks will allow to be used as any kind of pack animal. And then only Claus is allowed to use reindeer.

Also, it should be noted that before the creation of Rudolph as the ninth reindeer Baum had already written of more than eight reindeer pulling the sleigh. In fact while Baum had Claus starting with just a pair of deer named Glossie and Flossie, he raised the number to ten. In addition to Glossie and Flossie, they were Racer, Pacer, Fearless, Peerless, Reckless, Speckles, Ready, and Steady. It should be noted both by the rhyming of the names and by the fact that Baum's book was published in 1902 that it seems he clearly may not have felt he had to use any of the names Moore used in his poem. -- annonymous Dec. 25, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.4.114 (talk) 08:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that info. If you had enough additional info to fill out {{cite book}}, including page numbers, that would be great!   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 18:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, just came on to check and see if anyone had seen this yet and found your response, Jeff. I did provide most of the important info in the wee morning hours (it was after 3 AM EST when I posted the info) and I will try to give you a little more indepth as to what happened.

The book, as I already explained, is The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, which was orignally published in 1902. My copy is a Signet Classics publication, published 2005, so the page numbers I will be giving will be to that publication and I can't promise they will be the same over various publications. The book is divided into three parts, Childhood, Manhood, and old age, each part starts with a chapter 1.

The eighth chapter of the Manhood part, which is the fifteenth chapter of the book, is entitled The First Journey with the Reindeer, which begins on page 88, and introduces Glossie and Flossie. Their introduction is on pages 90 and 91 when Claus sees them walking on top of the snow and asks how they are able to do so for a few days before he'd sunk up to his armpits in it. Flossie's is the first name given, appearing as the third word in the second paragraph on page 91. Glossie's name is given in the fourth paragraph as the ninth word. In the third and fouth paragraphs the two deer explain that the snow is frozen and that is why they can walk on top of the snow. Claus and the deer discuss the fact that he must make a trip to deliver toys to the children, at this point his plan is to walk across the frozen snow which would still take him a number of days as he had a very long trip to make. The deer said he needed to wait until the spring as the snow would melt before he could get home, leaving him trapped. Claus laments that he's not as fast as they are and asks about riding on their backs. Flossie says that's not a good idea but maybe if he had a sledge they might be able to pull him and the toys. Claus sets out to build the sledge and a harness as the two deer go to ask the Knooks for permission. On page 92 the deer return sayin Will Knook has given them permission as long as they are in the forest by daybreak. The rest of the chapter is about that first trip with Glossie and Flossie, ending on page 98.

We don't hear much of Glossie and Flossie save a passing mention of deer until the tenth chapter (seventeenth overall), entitled Christmas Eve, which begins on page 102. Here we first learn it was a minute after daybreak that the deer managed to return to the forest and that Will Knook was going to punish them for their disobedience. On page 103 Claus went to see Ak, the Master Woodsman of the World, to interceed on the pair's behalf. On the same page, 103, Ak calls for a meeting with the Prince of the Knooks, the Prince of the Ryls, the Queen of the Faries, and the Queen of the Nymphs, whom we don't learn is present until page 104, to discuss the situation with the deer and Claus in general. On page 104 Ak tells the Prince of the Knooks that the deer could be of help to Claus. The Prince then has extra pressure placed on him by the other three, each of whom pledges something special for the deer if Claus is allowed to use them. The Queen of the Faries promises her people will protect the deer with Claus when they are out of the forest; the Prince of the Ryls pledges the deer that draw Claus's sledge can eat the casa plant for strength, the grawle plant for fleetness of foot, and the marbon plant for long life; the Queen of the Nymphs pledges to let the deer bathe in the Forest pool of Nares "which will give them sleek coats and wonderful beauty." The page ends with the Prince of the Knooks summoning Will Knook to testify on his reasons for the deer not to be used like pack animals.

Page 105 sees Will Knook explain that unlike horses, deer are supposed to be free animals who owe no services to mankind. Ak summoned Glossie and Flossie to testify as to how they felt about the trip. Their testimony, along with the pressure put on him by the other immortals present, appears to be what decided things for the Prince of the Knooks. On page 106 the Prince declares that Claus can use the deer to pull his sledge, but only on Christmas Eve. He also says on page 106 that Claus may select any number of deer, no more than ten, to pull the toy laden sledge. Because these deer are being used by Claus for the purpose of delivering toys, they are to then be known as reindeer to distinguish them from other deer. Page 108 to the end of the chapter on page 110 shows Claus's first Christmas Eve ride and the second trip with Glossie and Flossie as Claus has not yet choosen more deer.

Chapter 11, the eighteenth overall chapter, is entitled How the First Stockings Were Hung by the Chimney and begins page 111. One page 112 Claus realizes he's going to need a bigger sledge, making plans to get build one. This new sledge is too large for Glossie and Flossie to pull by themselves in one night according to what Glossie tells Claus on page 113. Claus wants to get a second pair but Flossie reminds Claus he can have up to ten deer. Flossie also claims that with ten deer they would be lightning fast and get to the highest roofs without any trouble. Claus likes this idea and at the bottom of page 113 sends Glossie and Flossie to select eight more deer to become reindeer for him.

Page 115 gives the names of the rest of Claus's reindeer. In the last paragraph on page 115 the other eight are introduced as Reckless, Speckless, Ready, Steady, Racer, Pacer, Fearless, and Peerless. In this paragraph Baum also says two things about the deer that are of great intrest. The first is an allusion of their age. After naming the deer on the team, Baum says "made up the ten who have traversed the world these hundreds of years with their generous master." Now actual age given, but we are told that as of the inital printing (and thus all subsequent printings) that the ten reindeer are hundreds of years old. The next thing Baum says about the deer is to describe them as being slender of limb, beautiful, nicely spread antlers, dark velvety eyes, and smooth fawn colored coats with with spots.

Page 116, in the second paragraph, reveals that Claus choose Glossie and Flossie as the lead deer of the team.

Now the rhyming of the names and Baum not using the number of deer and names Moore used is a little more conjuntion on my part. The rhyming is a little more obvious from looking at the names. Glossie and Flossie. Racer and Pacer. Baum clearly picked names that were largely spelled the same save for a letter or two, thus each of the names ryhmed with one other name. The conjuntion that Baum choose not to use the number and names of the raindeer Moore established comes more from the fact that Moore's poem had been around longer than Baum had been alive and the number and names Baum selected. The introduction on page XX reveals that the second printing used illustrations by W. W. Denslow, whom Baum had collaboratored with before (the first printing was illustrated by Mary Cowles Clark). Denslow did illustrations for Moore's poem the same year he illustrated the second printing of The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus. I assume Baum already knew of A Visit from Saint Nicholas when he wrote his book and choose not to use Moore's description on the size of the reindeer team and their names. - annonymous Dec. 25, 2007 (5:27 PM EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.4.114 (talk) 22:24, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buddy the Bluenose Reindeer

Buddy the Bluenose Reindeer is the creation of author Bruce Nunn, who is also known as "Mr. Nova Scotia Know-It-All". Buddy appears in two books published by Nimbus Publishing of Halifax, Nova Scotia. The first book, titled Buddy the Bluenose Reindeer, was published in 2005. Buddy the Bluenose Reindeer and the Boston Christmas Tree Adventure, the second book, was published in 2007. It builds on the true story of Nova Scotia sending Boston a beautiful, large Christmas tree each year as an ongoing "thank you" for Boston's overwhelming and gracious, quick response in providing help immediately following the Halifax explosion on December 6, 1917, when the city was leveled by the explosion of munitions ship in its harbour. The books can be found at www.nimbus.ns.ca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grinch13can (talk • contribs) 18:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia is lying.

You are lying Wikipedia. Santa Claus's reindeer do exist. They are not fiction, but they are real, and every December 25, they help lead the way for Santa Claus to get to every child's house, especially the leader of the pack, Rudolph. Atoms are fiction, Evolution is fiction, the Big Bang Theory is fiction, but not Santa Claus's reindeer. Look up in the sky on December 25, and you will see Santa Claus and his reindeer. They are real, not fiction. --Alexandergungnahov (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)