Talk:Sand Creek massacre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Colorado, an effort to create, expand, organize, and improve Colorado-related articles to a feature-quality standard.
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
This article is part of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, which collaborates on Native American, First Nations, Inuit, Métis and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet been rated on the assessment scale.
Suggested article edit guidelines:

Please rate this article and leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Contents

[edit] Ghost Dance

--- "line 29 The Cheyenne and Arapahoes danced the ghost dance which invoked the attack. "

I don't think Cheyenne and Arapahoes ever danced the ghost dance. Can we get source? ---

I deleted the Ghost Dance reference since the dates simply don't work.rewinn 21:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chivington

The distinction between the U.S. Army (of which the "U.S. Cavalry" was a branch) and the militias of the various states, Colorado in this case, was a real one--especially during the Indian Wars. U.S. Army troops and, more important, their officers, were drawn from the country as a whole, and their attitudes toward the Indians reflected a broad mix of feelings; militia troops and officers, on the other hand, were drawn from within the various states in which they normally served, and thus reflected more closely the prevailing local attitudes.

In the months preceding the tragedy at Sand Creek, Indians had killed settlers, including women and children; their bodies were displayed in Denver as proof that the Indians were indeed savages who could be dealt with only by force. Sand Creek was the almost inevitable outcome of the use of militia troops under Chivington, a member of the militia himself.

How the local militia came to be at Sand Creek on that fateful day is complicated and not part of this discussion. What happened after they got there, however, can be partially explained--in no case justified--by their local backgrounds.

For the above to be helpful in improving the article, it may be worth going into Chivington's troops & motivations; also those of Evan. According to Dee Brown, they seem to have based their political campaigns on fighting an Indian menace. rewinn 06:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


Another song about this is "Banner Year" by Five Iron Frenzy.

I removed the partial sentence at the end of the piece: "The actual location of the massacre was not definatively nailed until"... Mwanner 01:45, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

I removed some obscenities and other juvenile comments just now. tstockma 01:24, September 12, 2005

The deliberate killing and mutilation of non-combatant women and children was rightly condemned as an atrocity. However it must be borne in mind that these pratices, and worse, were routine amongst the hostile Indians (and not just against Whites) who apparently saw nothing atrocious or immoral about them, except when practised by Whites upon them. unsigned comment by 25 February 2007 on 194.125.117.90

And your evidence for this extremely broad and unsourced statement would be ... what?
There is no showing that Indians lacked as broad a range of feelings and practices as Europeans, whose history is full of both atrocities and the rejection of atrocities. In any event, it is difficult to see how the above comments would assist in improving the article. rewinn 19:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
You ask for sources; See below. I don't know if you agree, but I find it useful to read the alternative viewpoint rather than accept what "everyone knows". Even if one's opinion remains unchanged, it is at least a more considered opinion. As the Romans used to say: "Audi alteram partem" Hear the other side. Best wishes.
Battle At Sand Creek: The Military Perspective by Gregory F. Michno (Author)
unsigned comment at (19:41, 4 March 2007) at 213.202.159.169
Hello and welcome to wikipedia. Let me urge you
  • Get a logon. It's free & helps discussion by making it easier for people to recall who they're discussing with
  • Sign your Talk page contribs. Just put four tildas (~) at the end & wikimagic does the rest
  • I don't know how to respond substantively to your comment. There's no showing that I or any other editor accepts what everyone knows. What wikipedia needs is sources for comment. This particular discussion conflates two issues: whether Indians ever committed atrocities, and whether they "saw nothing atrocious or immoral about them, except when practised by Whites upon them". The former is an unremarkable proposition; it would be remarkable if Indians were one of the few people never to commit atrocities. As to the latter, I very much doubt that there is any factual support; history and biology tells us that all humans very much resent being the object of atrocities. Although it seems likely that Indian-on-Indian atrocitites may not have been complained of to a White court system that would exercise little jurisdiction. rewinn 04:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice, rwinn. You seem to misunderstand my comments. My point is about cultural values, not about individuals.

Chivington's actions were considered, by whites, to be an atrocity because they went beyond what was deemed civilised behaviour, even in the conduct of war. On the other hand, from an Indian point of view, the killing, rape, mutilation and torture of men women and children was a cultural norm, and not viewed as aberrant behaviour, it was simply the way war was waged. No doubt other Indian victims resented being attacked, but this does not mean they viewed these actions as atrocities. In fact, I know of no violence inflicted upon an enemy by Indians which would be considered by other Indians an atrocity. (I would be very interested if someone were to show me otherwise).

Joescallan 18:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

What evidence do you offer for the proposition that from an Indian point of view, killing, rape, mutilation and torture of men women and children was a cultural norm ... at least, any more that it is a norm among civilized societies as well? Please, cite a reliable source. The evidence that tribal societies are any more nasty, brutal and Hobbesian than more civilized societies is simply absent. To the contrary: read Henry V's speech before Harfleur and consider that Shakespeare's audience considered him a hero; ponder the conduct of civilized Japanese troops in China, civilized Amercan troops in Vietnam, civilized Russian troops in Chenchnya, et cetera; and consider that no savage society (unless perhaps the Mongols) conducted slaughter on so grand scale as the civilized societies with our invention of the strategic bomber, poisonous gas, and the death camp. It is to the glory and credit of the civilized world that we have the Geneva Conventions et cetera but they would not be necessary were our cultural norms as you suggest. rewinn 03:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anon editor said..

""the massacre in Little Big Man is also based on it." is a mistake as that movie featured an accurate recreation of the second attack on Black Kettle's Cheyennes on the banks of the Washita, 27 November 1868, where Black Kettle actually died at the hands of Custer's 7th."

So I removed the text ", and the massacre in Little Big Man is also based on it" If it is really correct please replace it. Rich Farmbrough 01:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"...encamped on the eastern plains." Looking at the map it sure looks as if Sand Creek is in the western plains!!!! Oh sure, there is the demarcation between what is known as the long grass and short grass prarie but the term "eastern" doesn't seem to fit the actual location of the massacre in any manner.68.13.191.153 12:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

In Colorado we are used to referring to anything east of Denver as the "eastern plains." Perhaps it would be better worded: "on the plains of eastern Colorado." Plazak 18:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dog Soldiers

I'm removing the link the the Dog Soldier (movie), it has nothing to do with Cheyenne Dog Soldiers... Ralph 9 Jan 2006

agreed. There really should be a wikipedia article about the historical Dog Soldiers but I lack sources. Anybody care to take it up? rewinn 19:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed another link to the Dog Soldiers movie for the same reason. - Shrivenzale; 15:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the whole mess of Dog Soldiers references. The one we want has been at Dog soldier; I moved to rename it to Dog Soldiers (has to go through admins to keep the edit history with the article), on top of renaming the film to Dog Soldiers (film), and creating a Dog Soldiers (disambiguation) article. I felt it was appropriate to have the article on the Cheyenne military society as the one called simply Dog Soldiers, as the other items of that name (a novel & the movie) are both ultimately references to this original. I've got at least some material on the Cheyenne Dog Soldiers which I will be adding to that article shortly. Meantime, we can now link to Dog Soldiers without ending up on a 2002 British werwolf flick. --Yksin 11:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

No, the Dog Soldiers were not part of the Sand Creek encampment; if they had, Chivington would have been routed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.163.39 (talk) 04:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Cruise

In the book The Last Samurai it states The Battle of Washita River. I'll look up the page number for eveyone so we can put this to rest.--Dm2ortiz 20:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I took out the following lines, since it seems there is some disagreement on them:

In the film The Last Samurai, Tom Cruise's character Captain Nathan Algren had nightmares from his participation at the massacre. stop adding this, that was the "The Battle of Washita River" not Sand Creek!

Does anyone have a reference they can cite one way or the other for this? If it is sand creek, it should go back in the article, but remain out if otherwise. Adagio 16:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

After thinking about it, I don't see how Algren could be having nightmares about Sand Creek. According to the The Last Samurai, it says he was a veteran of the Battle of Gettysburg. Gettysburg was July 1863. It seems unlikely that a soldier could or would be allowed to leave the Army of the Potomac to go to Colorado and join the 1st and 3rd Colorado Cavalry a year later during the civil war. Since the movie "takes place" in 1877, there is plenty of time for him to take part in some other massacre. Without evidence, I think it is best to keep it out. I think I will take it out of the The Last Samurai article too, and redirect any objections from there to here so we can sort it out. --ChristopherM 20:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I just watched the movie last night, pursuant to research for Battle of Washita River. It's Washita that the movie refers to, if not by name. Evidence: (1) Cruise's character Algren was a former captain in the 7th Cavalry, which was not present at Sand Creek, but certainly was at the Washita. (2) In one of the nightmare/flashback scenes, he was heard to protest to the Col. Blagley character (whose presence there as a colonel as though he had commanded the 7th in that attack instead of Lt. Col. Custer was rather confusing to me) just before they charged in for the attack something to the effect of, "But they weren't responsible for the raids!" -- an undoubted reference to the raids along the Solomon/Saline rivers that was one of the proximate justifications for Sheridan's winter campaign against the Cheyenne & Arapaho which led to the Washita attack. Not a very accurate depiction of Washita, of course, but that's to be expected I guess. --Yksin 11:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fort Wise Treaty

I added the name of the treaty signed by Black Kettle and others (Fort Wise Treaty of 1861) and changed it to say that only SOME of the chiefs signed it. My reference: Black Kettle: The Cheyenne Chief Who Sought Peace and Found War, by Thom Hatch (2004). This is my first time editing a wikipedia entry and I think I botched my signature; it seems to appear in the middle of the entry. --Dansato 22:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I found the names of all six of the signatories in one of Hoig's books, and added the ref. Hoig cites the standard reference on Indian treaties, Charles J. Kappler's Indian Affairs: Law and Treaties (4 vols.) Also completely rewrote the Treaty of Fort Wise article (which previously had been a unreferenced POV rant with tags complaining of such) based on rewrites I did of the Background section of this article. --Yksin 11:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American casualties and cause

I added the information from Dee Brown's book. I just returned it to the library, so I have to get the page numbers.Pejorative.majeure 00:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background section

The background section has been expanded and sourced, based mainly on Stan Hoig's book The Peace Chiefs of the Cheyennes, Jerome Greene's 2004 book on the Washita, and George Hyde's Life of George Bent Written from His Letters. This section was previously completely unsourced. I'm hoping that my edits clarify the account -- I focused particularly on the differences between the Treaty of Fort Laramie (1851) & the Treaty of Fort Wise, the anger of the Dog Soldiers and some other Cheyennes about the latter, & how the Dog Soldiers' refusal to feel obligated to abide by the Fort Wise treaty's stipulations helped lead to the escalating conflicts during 1864 that culminated in the Colorado War in general & the Sand Creek massacre in particular. About the only part of the background I didn't get to expanding/sourcing in this section was the stuff about how Black Kettle & company ended up at Sand Creek. Refs article-wide also cleaned up. --Yksin 11:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atrocities

Most articles about the massacre omit the grisly details. What is the source of the passage: "Many of the dead were mutilated, ... They also publicly displayed these battle trophies in the Apollo Theater and saloons in Denver"? ALu06 17:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This is mentioned in Dee Brown's book. Trophies were draped on weapons, clothing and were on public display in Denver. Pejorative.majeure 00:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Starting on page 57 in the "Condition of the Indian Tribes, Report of the joint Special Committee, Appendix" (1867), you will find alot of documented first hand testimony from Chivington's soldiers as to the grisly mutilations committed:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;rgn=full%20text;idno=ABB3022.0001.001;didno=ABB3022.0001.001;view=image;seq=0069 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.138.14.2 (talk) 02:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)