Talk:Sanaag

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Mohamed ja,

I greatly believe you are one of those people who are in desperate attempt to efface the name of the owners of this region: Warsangeli. As much as i respect this site for its free publications, I won't suggest it lets the publication of false information on its site. You can google the fact.

This page must be edited to "the regions's main inhabitants are Warsangeli with members of dhulbahante and Isaaq present"

Omar Ali

Dear Wiki,

It is my pleasure to bring into your attention that the Sanaag article has faced several deletion and addition of its content, which prompted your legal action to protect the page from vandalism in order to preserve the credibility and reliability of this great website.

I would very much suggest that you leave it to the original content.

If you go to this site, which cited the original content of Sanaag article under GFDL licensed documentation. Visit the link.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/S/Sa/Sanaag.htm

Besides the region is part of Somalia but there are external forces, namely self-declared de facto states proclaiming this region and using every means to divert the world from facts of these regions' inhabitants.

Sanaagian.

That's a WP clone, those can never be used as references. Do you have a verifiable source you can cite to back up any of your claims? El_C 11:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


Of course, I have a document that purports the official districts of Somalia as of 1990, just after the collapse of Somalia’s government. There are five districts in Sanaag region that the document highlights at the Somali National Peace Conference. As you are aware of, the absence of Somali central government continues up to this date despite the establishment of a new Transitional government. http://www.statoids.com/yso.html . When you visit the above link, it directs you to another link, a report of Somalia’ s National Peace Conference. Scroll down until you see Annex V (Somali regions and Districts) 4. SANAAG (Ceerigabo, Ceelafyeyn, Badhan, Las Qorey, Dhahar) . As you can view them, four of the five districts (major towns) listed in this official documents are territories by Warsangeli clan. Innumerable villages and small towns accompany those districts under their municipal administration.

Moreover, There is no country that recognizes Somal-iland, a self-declared de facto tribal state. Their slick campaign for recognition beguiles unwary persons who are foreign to Somali politics unless you delve into the genuine situation of Somalia. The most recent background note of Somalia by the U.S Department of State states facts about Somali. I hope it sheds more light on your African history knowledge. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2863.htm


Sanaagian

While you guys are arguing that, can we please have a simple factual edit on which state is currently in de facto control of Sanaag and Sool? Is it Puntland or Somaliland? —the preceding comment is by 19:39, 27 February 2006 - 213.78.92.253: Please sign your posts!

If no country recognizes Somalia, then why is it that Somaliland's flag is the one flying high in Sanaag? Come on guys! You all know that the Darod came to Sanaag less than 60 years ago because the Isaq married your women. Before that, the Darod were not allowed to even sleep in the city at night! Besides, Shiekh Isaaq is buried in Sanaag, while Darood is buried where???

Walahi, I just went to Erigavo last year and the whole city was either Musa Ismail or Habr Jeclo. In all honesty, I saw only 3 Darod living in the city Walahi! And outside the city in Dallo, I kid you not when I say that only Isaaq are allowed to travel up the mountains. So I know you are busy filling non-Somalis with your lies, but amongst Somalis, we all know that Sanaag is the ancestral land of the Dir (Isaaq, Issa, and Gudabursi).{{subst:Uw-unsigned2|15:10, 26 February 2008|Jeff333}}

Some of your comments seem more about the subject itself rather than the actual improvement of this article (which is the purpose of this talk page). Also, please review Wikipedia's policy concerning verfiability and reliable sources (in particular, citing one's self). Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] External links cleanup

I have removed the following websites, as they are in the Somali language and not really helpful in the English Wikipedia. I would suggest linking to these from the Somali Wikipedia, of course being mindful of their own policies concerning the inclusiuon of external links. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture, links, categories, regions

I added a picture showing Sanaag in relation to other regions of Somaliland/Somalia. I think the image is helpful even if control of the region is disputed. Could I know the reason it is being removed? Also, links and categories are being removed. What is the reason for this? Finally, what is the reasoning behind the order of the districts? Would alphabetical be inappropriate? Gimmetrow 19:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate Gyrofrog's reversion but the anon's image is OK. Would be nice if it showed Sanaag more clearly, but it's better than a revert war. Gimmetrow 21:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree re: the reverts, but the replacement map highlights the location of Mogadishu, which isn't particularly relevant to the Sanaag article. As for the other issues, I believe the removal of categories, etc. is unintentional (for what that's worth). I also agree that the districts should be listed alphabetically. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war?

There seems to be an edit war going on regarding this region, especially of unsourced information and wild swings in claims of ethnic division of the region. If it does not calm down, we'll be forced to lock down the page. --Petercorless 11:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Until I can see someone quote a reliable, verifiable source on what % of the region is owned by what particular ethnic group, we will have to say the "eastern part" is Darod and "western part" is Isaaq. There's no clearer distinction to be drawn unless you can make verifiable claims. --Petercorless 11:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I am again seeing the disputed "two-thirds"/"one-third" claims without seeing any citation from a credible source. I will not get into an edit war here, but I really want to see better citations made to this article. --Petercorless 12:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Eastern and Western used instead of majority/minority. Other district related section was taken out since it will most certainly lead to another episode of edit wars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by L33ter (talk • contribs) 01:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
Pardon. I stomped on your edit. I added back in the "eastern" and "western" section but also the Districts of Sanaag. They can be better documented and referenced, but there's no reason to knock them off. --Petercorless 02:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
User:L33ter, why do you consistently remove the information about the 1991 district definitions of Somalia and leave only the present districts of Somaliland? --Petercorless 01:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Again I am refering you to the wikipedia page on Somali Districts. If you care to check the map on top of the page, try to locate the Sanaag region in the North Central part of the country and you will discover there are only three official districts in Sanaag; Erigavo (capital), El Afweyn and Badhan. I have given you a link to that page before so please stop vandlising the page. --XCalibre 15:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Here are the links: Somalia Districts page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Somalia .You can also check the map of Somali speaking lands,which by the way is viewable from this very article were discussing here about Sanaag. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Somali_land_2007_01_12.png --XCalibre 15:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. And you have my apologies. However, I wonder why the citation of the 5 districts by other sources? Were there 5 districts in 1991 or prior? --Petercorless 18:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
No need for apologies Petercorless, its all good =). To answer your question I dont know TBH, those districts might have been announced by one of the small time governments (e.g. Ali Mahdi, AbdiQasim...etc) but I've always known Sanaag to have had the three districts listed above. --XCalibre 20:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Alright. I have found citation of sources where the region was originally considered five districts. Let's not continue this edit war unless you can find firm counter-citations that prove this former division false. --Petercorless 19:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) The difference between the present three-district division of Sanaag as per Somaliland, and the former 5-district division of Sanaag (as per former and present transitional government of Somalia) has been made, cited, and noted. I would appreciate it if you did not consistently wipe out that section of the article without counter-citations or discussion. While your reservations have been noted, we have already taken to clearly distinguish the points you have asked to be taken into account. There is no reason to eliminate the content, thank you. --Petercorless 18:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I'm not sure that Image:Sanaag.png is a better choice for this article, particularly if we're trying to highlight its location within Somalia. I think Image:Somalia regions map Sanaag.svg is much more straightforward. But if we must use Image:Sanaag.png (and I really can't see why, since it really seems intended for another purpose) can someone at least highlight Sanaag on the map? Thanx, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Mrf. I'd agree. It's a muddier image. --Petercorless 18:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I did actually try and highlight the Sanaag region in that particular map but it seems a bit scabby and not straightforward. I chose Sanaag.png because it gave more detail as to the main districts of the region and what not, however I agree with you guys it wasnt the right choice after all. I'll put Image:Somalia regions map Sanaag.svg back because even if I highlight the map more it just has too much detail to it. --XCalibre 20:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] THE PROBLEM SOOL,SANAAG&BUHOODLE AND THIS MAP

this map must be basis the somali clan families map because that part of somalia unlike other parts of somalia every one must be carefull that is reason of the confilict and this intersection lines must be cover all harti area in sool,sanaag and cayn using tha map of somali clan families :

there are area excepted in this map the lines extended in the conflict area between puntland and somaliland {ceerigaabo(arigavo) district}Include :masagan,ceelaqoday,madare,ardaa,dhaxamo,biyoguduud,jiidali,fiqi fuleye,awrboogays,dhaabeeda,ceelqoxle ,xingalool,damalaxagare,yube,carmale,bir xamar,dabablehe look map of ceerigaabo:

  • [fallingrain] that mean that area is inhabitants by isaq clan or belong them but that is not true it is big mistake to refer area for one clan to other clan.reason of conflict is distribute of the tribes if you look map of somali clan families you see:

the puntland need to make darod state look map of puntland: [puntlandgovt ] include all area inhabitants by harti clan,

where somaliland need to make isaaq nation in the boundaries of the new republic are the same as those of "British Somaliland [somalilandgov] that is impossible because who inhabit the regions of Sool, Sanaag and Cayn (approximating over 40 percent of the geographical area of the so-called Somaliland), as members of major Somali clans.

the problem is the people of Sool and Sanaag, as members of major Somali clans, have recognized borders. It is a well defined border, with longitude and latitude; it is borders well recognized by Her Majesty, the British Kingdom; it is a border that recognizes where the Isaq sub-clans reside and where the Harti sub-clans are too. I'm telling the owner of this map don't disturb those borders and the peace. --Sanaaglander 14:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Somalia Districts

I'M surpring who said: there are only three official districts in Sanaag; and also those districts have been announced by one of the small time governments (e.g. Ali Mahdi, AbdiQasim...etc) where is the true is sanaag is five districts since 1982 who need information about provinces of somalia and their districts and how they changed over years he must look all of these official website before for every thing else

Yes, there are issues of the historical districts and the present districts. The issue seems to be that there used to be five districts before Somaliland pulled away, and now there are three districts (since 1991). This has gone back-and-forth as a form of edit war. I believe it might be best to simply quote both situations (the pre-1991 boundaries of five districts and the modern 3-district division). However, there is an editor who has continually removed mention of the five districts. --Petercorless 19:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] other issue

this map in using this website is not correct because was divided the privince tree district ceerigaabo,laasqoray,ceelafweyn and made most of badhan district part of ceerigaabo and also part of dhahar district. this map was made by Somali joint needs assessment(JNA) just to soft them their work but is not political map.you can see that if you see their website:

--Sanaaglander 15:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The links you made above do not work. Care to point to a valid source? --Petercorless 18:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Districts of Sanaag.

Why are you continuously altering the page for Sanaag and removing the list of districts and towns? I have trimmed the list to just the district names and the predominant clans of the districts, but I am unsure why you keep deleting the content. --Petercorless 10:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Its you who needs to answer why you continuosly keep putting unrefrenced material on the Sanaag page? Im all for that list given you provide an official source to your estimates. --XCalibre 21:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Read over the current version. Is that better? --Petercorless 23:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I have kept your edits of the three main districts of Sanaag. Im refering you to the map of all districts of the former Somalia here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Somalia

You will notice Sanaag has only three districts.

Edited as well was the list of the most important towns which seemed like a list of all sizable villiges whome many were of no importance. I have kept however the three most important towns for both the Isaaq and the Darod. --XCalibre 10:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Please explain in your edit summary why you are removing content from Sanaag; otherwise it will look like vandalism. -SpuriousQ (talk) 10:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that though presently there are but 3 districts in Sanaag in the past, it had been described as having 5 districts. --Petercorless 19:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Exactly! The fact on the ground is that Sanaag has only three districts at the moment. You can put all other information you have in another heading, something like History of districts or something. --XCalibre 21:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
It belongs under that category. Do not delete information simply because you personally object to its citation. Why are you consistently deleting it anyway? We already have noted the difference between the Somalia and Somaliland interpretations and the contention over the region. Your edits are not helping illuminate the topic for readers. --Petercorless 23:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? You have agreed that the region today is devided into three districts and three districts only, yet you still in denial of the fact that your edits to the article go against the realities on the ground. I have refered you time and time again to my sources along with maps clarifying what I say. I really do not understand nor see where you're coming from but, I assure you, your illogical editing to that article wont go unchallenged. --XCalibre 11:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I agreed the district is divided into three districts, and you will note that the division of the province thusly has been attributed to the Somaliland government. Then it was further cited how the region used to be divided into five districts as per the Siad Barre government, and how these boundaries were still referred to in the 2000 reconciliation conference and the present TFG government. We have made clear how there is a territorial dispute over Sanaag for this reason. I cited the references. How is that illogical? --Petercorless 18:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The region today is devided into three districts, we both agree on that. Why then do you keep coming back with the five districts talk? I agree, at some point the two villages of Dhahar and Las Qorey were named districts in Sanaag and that was in the period between 1982 and 1991, nine years in total. Which was all due to frictions between the majority of whats now Somaliland and the Siyad Barre Government. It was a period and now its over, thats history. Now I dont have any objections in adding that part as a wee historical note, because its good to learn about the past and it gives a more realistic look to the situation in Sanaag. But, and I stress on this, the region in all its modern history had only three districts apart from the nine year period leading to the fall off Barre regime. Do you understand my objections now? I'm also objecting to you putting almost every village in Sanaag in the list of most important towns. You'll need to either change the heading to A List of All Towns and Villages in Sanaag or cut it down to the most important ones only. --XCalibre 19:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Agreed: we need not list all the towns of the region to list the districts. You may note in the edit history I was the one that eventually trimmed those out. The main issue was that you snipped out more than just the list of towns. The article now lists only the districts of Sanaag, referencing both the Somaliland view, and to how these districts are still defined by the governments who also assert sovereignty over Sanaag: Puntland and the Transitional Federal Government of Somalia. While I understand this may be a very sensitive personal issue for you, I hope you understand that I am not partisan, but encyclopediac in mentioning these other claims to the territory, hence listing the historical precedence upon which territorial distinctions and boundaries stem. If you have suggestions to the alteration of the language, please make your suggestions known. I have been reasonable to accomodate your views, but we should not excise important information for this major and on-going issue. --Petercorless 21:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You are never reasonable particularly on the issues of the three districts. I have refered you time and time again to the map of Somalia Image:Somalia_districts.png in which if you look at the region of Sanaag you will clearly see it is indeed devided into three districts. Mind you, this is a map of Somalia and not Somaliland with every single region and every single district in Somalia. It was not made by the Govt. of Somaliland nor it does in any way affiliates with it. And while I agree that for a period of nine years (1982-1991) the region indeed had five districts, I find your ignorance of all the period before (1960-1982) and after (1991-present) very strange TBH. Im in no way against you putting information about that period in there, all Im against is you creating an area of confusion for the readers by claiming its only Somaliland thats deviding the region to three districts. You can add, as I have stated several times, the history of the region and nature of its structure and districts in the past but that must be undera new sub-heading of some sort, History of Sanaag perhaps?

You seem to have some personal agenda behind your reluntless efforts, I admire your consistencey but please, stop the vandlising. I've been meaning to ask you something, btw, how is www.banaadir.com a reliable source for Wikipedia?

I said it before and I repeat it again, uninformed, confusing enteries will not go unchallenged. --XCalibre 22:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright. I have done more research, and found that in fact I was wrong. So wrong that I missed a major document of the Somaliland government which shows the region divided into no less than ten (10) districts. I have cited both the district divisions, as well as a document which shows that the "D" class districts were not counted in the 2005 elections, at which 6 districts were used for determining parliamentary seats for Sanaag in the Somaliland parliament. All of this calls to question the actual source of the "three district" division. While I definitely have seen maps (such as those provided by FSAU) showing the three district divisions, what I am having a hard time finding is the historical time when this division came into effect, and while government actually made such division. So, having done more resarch, I welcome you to cite the source of the three district division. I have already cited sources for the pre-1991 division, and for the 2002 Somaliland division. I know, I have seen the three district division. That is not in contention. All I am asking is for proof of when it was adopted first, and by which authority. --Petercorless 10:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Once again, I will restore the cited information which shows the older boundaries in pre-1991 Somalia, as well as cite the districts as claimed by Somaliland. --Petercorless 11:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)