Talk:San Sebastián

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below and our naming convention on common names. It seems to be agreed that San Sebastián is the most common name in English language sources. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Donostia → San Sebastián — Per WP:NC, which states "In the absence of a common English name, the current local name of the city should be used." I would contend that, although Donostia is official within the Basque Region, its common English name is San Sebastián. As evidence, I present a fact and an assertion. The fact is that searching with Google for English-only results, we get 1.3 million for "San Sebastian" (admittedly not all in Spain) and 363,000 for "Donostia". My assertion is that insofar as the town is famous outside Spain, it is for the festival, which is known by its Spanish name, and for featuring in Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises, where he also uses the Spanish name. —Biruitorul 21:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight.

• Support a move to San Sebastián per nomination (except for the Google test). Donostia-San Sebastián, the official name, is a possibility albeit a hideous one. —  AjaxSmack  05:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. I actually don't see any significant problem in having the article at the entity's official name, Donostia-San Sebastián. It's the Real World solution which no doubt has been adopted to circumvent precisely this naming dispute. I would support moving to the official name.--cjllw ʘ TALK 12:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - yes, that could work, but San Sebastián, without Donostia, is the common name in English. Biruitorul 16:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support Preferably without the accent/diacritical, which is not normally used in English. This is a well-known town as San Sebastian - I had never heard of Donostia. I also remember in the protracted discussions at Guernica some time ago, strong supporters of Gernika-Lumo saying that of course they would never dream of using the local version for well-known places like San Sebastian! Johnbod 15:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - well, I don't think the accent is such a big deal. For instance most English speakers probably refer to "Orleans", but they readily grasp it's the same thing as Orléans. There's no way to tell from the words themselves that Donostia and San Sebastián are the same, but San Sebastián and San Sebastian are basically the same, plus the former is correct in Spanish. However, I wouldn't strongly object to its omission. Biruitorul 16:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Donostia is also widely used. I would support moving to Donostia-San Sebastián though (a name not unlike Vitoria-Gasteiz). If moved, the diacritic must by all means be placed on "San Sebastián, for the sake of primordial encyclopedic accuracy.--Húsönd 01:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - ah, but where is it also widely used? Not in the Anglophone world, as far as I know. At least not as widely as San Sebastián. Biruitorul 06:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support move to Donostia–San Sebastián I agree that San Sebastián is more common in English. But people who are careful about geographical names seem to use Donostia–San Sebastián. This is the official name, as ugly as it is, and when you're treading on eggshells, it's best to stick to that. I found this in a text [1] of the UNGEGN (UN Group of Experts on Geographical Names). It's in French (although ideally it would have been nice to have it in English), and uses Donostia–San Sebastián despite the fact that the French name Saint-Sébastien (which is only a few miles from France after all) is much more common in French than San Sebastian or San Sebastián is in English: Du 12 au 16 juin dernier, s’est déroulé à Donostia−San Sebastián, au Pays Basque espagnol, un stage de formation en toponymie. So if that's what toponymists write, it's good enough for me. I also agree that the accent should be used. Note: though the name should be spelt with an en-dash in the body of the article, if the title is hyphenated it should be with a hyphen-minus. Joeldl 18:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

That's fine, if you're happy to ignore WP policy completely! Johnbod 18:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, we can say that the hyphenated form is the form used by toponymists at the UNGEGN. Since we're supposed to give more weight to what the experts do, it makes sense to look at them. More generally, it makes sense to look at what people do when they are very well informed and are making an effort to be perceived as neutral. It seems plausible that in those cases Donostia–San Sebastián is most common. You can do a search for +UNGEGN +"San Sebastian" and +UNGEGN +Donostia. There's an example in Estonian too. As has been mentioned previously, it's the official name. Even in Spanish you'll see Donostia–San Sebastián. This official list of mayors in Spain [2] (written in Spanish) says, "See Donostia–San Sebastián," at the entry for "San Sebastián". Joeldl 19:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NCGN says "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." That's all we need to know. Johnbod 22:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. No offense, Joeld, but when I saw reference to UNGEGN, my eyes began to glaze over. What concerns us here is common English usage. Biruitorul 06:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Support Most common English names should be used. And I would go for San Sebastian, since the tilde is a Spanish spelling, not needed in the English version of the name. David 20:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Donostia-San Sebastián is the official name of the city in both Spanish and Basque, whereas "San Sebastián" is the old, unofficial Spanish-only name. I think people are only calling the city San Sebastián because traditionally the Spanish name was predominant. I don't think its particularly correct to enforce this in Wikipedia, considering that "Donostia-San Sebastián" is not only more neutral and inclusive but also the official name in both languages of the city. I would thus support a move to Donostia-San Sebastián. Ronline ✉ 06:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Based on our Odorheiu Secuiesc discussion, perhaps I should support this, but the difference is that while nearly no one in the English-speaking world knows about Odorheiu Secuiesc in any of its variants, so it has no common name in English, English speakers do know about this town, and they know it as San Sebastián. Biruitorul 06:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I had never I think heard of Odorheiu Secuiesc under any name though I know both Romania & Hungary a lot better than most English-speakers. I notice the official town tourism website uses "San Sebastian", only, and without the accent, in the English version. "Saint Sébatien-Donostia" in the French, etc. [3] Johnbod 07:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Note to closing admin: if the eventual outcome is to move the article, then there's a prior cut and paste move which should probably be repaired, in or before doing so. It appears that this article was formerly at San Sebastián, until some anon nearly two years ago cut and paste the contents to this present title, Donostia (see cut, paste). Both have non-trivial edit histories. In fact, even were the article to remain where it is, this cut'n'paste should be fixed up.--cjllw ʘ TALK 01:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.