Talk:San Marino

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I noticed some phrases taken directly from the CIA Factbook article on San Marino. Does their copyright / licence permit this?

See CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries about the content and structure of the article -- User:Docu
CIA Factbook is public domain. 72.150.229.55 21:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Summary

The History section states: According to legend, Marino... etc., but the article summary states it as a fact. As no contemporary reference exists, and the Republic is first mentioned several centuries later, would somebody mind if I changed it to "According to legend, it was founded in A.D. 301"? Sic? 15:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Monaco is a UN member and smaller than San Marino. Ybgursey 05:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War with Sweden

This sounds fascinating, but I can find no information by casually surfing the web. Does anybody know more? (This "fact" was added by anonymous user 212.235.107.70 - the only contribution from that IP address) — Hippietrail 09:36, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

San Marino was allied with nations at war with Sweden in the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648) and was officially at war with them at the time. For whatever reason, San Marino never signed the Treaty of Westphalia ending that war, and thus officially never ended hostilities with Sweden. When this was discovered, centuries later, the two nations issued a joint statement on television on May 4, 1996, announcing that Sweden and San Marino were no longer at war. John

According to Google Answers, this "war" is in fact just a myth. Interestingly enough, it lists this article as one of its sources. Who to believe? Aoi 10:48, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Good find. I doubted the story when I found it in this article so I looked for a decent source and figured Encarta would be OK as a reference. I guess more research is in order. --Beirne 12:42, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

I went to the Swedish government web page and wrote to their Foreign Ministry to ask them about this. Since they referred to this as a legend I think they replied that this isn't true, but they don't quite say it:

According to legend, the representative of the principality of San Marino (which formally sided with the Catholics) at the Peace of Westphalia had been waiting for his remuneration for a long time and in the end, tired of not having received it, simply got on his horse and rode home. The Treaty, therefore, was never signed by a representative of San Marino. Sweden has diplomatic relations with San Marino and, at present, Sweden's ambassador to Slovenia is concurrenly accredited to San Marino.

Regards,

Marlene Ärnborg Information Officer

So is it time to remove the story, or at least describe it as a legend? --Beirne 00:30, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Before unification of Italy

The article says that San Marino became surrounded by Italy when it was unified in the 19th century. So on which border(s) did it lie prior to this time? — Hippietrail 09:28, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Between Montefeltro and Rimini, on the border between Urbino and the Marches, thus by the 19th century between Umbria and the Papal States, now between Emilia-Romagna and the Marche.... I think. Wetman 09:49, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Before the Italian Unification, in the XIX century, San Marino was surrounded by the Papal State. For a while, during the napoleonic age, San Marino lied between the Cisalpine (later Italian) Republic and the Papal State, and then was surrounded by the "first" modern kingdom of Italy (Regno Italico. 1805 -1814). Ciao, Dedo. 16:37 14 DEC 2006.

[edit] St Marinus

These article states that Marinus was a stonemason but the article about St marinus states that he was a blacksmith! And now, who is right or wrong?

According to German, Italian, Spanish and Dutch Wikipedias, as well as a few Catholic online sites, he was a stonemason who came to work on construction of Rimini fortification walls a few years before having to hide on Mt. Titano. Croatian Wikipedia claims he was a blacksmith. I'll try to find some additional reference, and then edit the Saint page, if that's OK Sic? 14:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Head of State

Why is the Head of State not mentioned?

Zntrip

I don't think San Marino has a single head of state, does it? The executive branch is represented by two "Captains Regent". Perhaps they share the title together. Can anyone confirm? -- Hux 08:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed --194.183.86.147 21:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death penalty

Was San Marino the first country to abolish the death penalty? 212.18.232.108 12:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was one of the first, in 1865. Venezuela abolished it in 1863. user:Jsc1973

No, the first country in the world to abolish death penalty was Grand Duchy of Tuscany, on November 30th, 1786. Gspinoza 12:49 6 mar 2007 (CET)

[edit] Enclave?

San Marino is an enclave in Italy I don't think you can claim that. An enclave implies that there is a biggeer part of San Marion somewhere outside Italy Fornadan (t) 11:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is the definition of enclave from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enclave):
1. A country or part of a country lying wholly within the boundaries of another.
2. A distinctly bounded area enclosed within a larger unit: ethnic enclaves in a large city.
--Beirne 12:26, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Smallest?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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The Principality of Monaco or Monaco (French: Principauté de Monaco or Monaco; Monegasque: Munegu or Principatu de Munegu) is a city state and the second-smallest country in the world (after the Vatican City), wedged in between the Mediterranean Sea and France along the French Riviera or Côte d'Azur (The Blue Coast). Consisting mostly of just the old town of Monaco and later built-up areas, it is also the most densely populated independent country in the world1. It is one of the European microstates.
San Marino
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The Most Serene Republic of San Marino or San Marino (Italian: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marino or San Marino) is one of the smallest nations in the world. Located in southern Europe, it is landlocked by Italy, and is one of the European microstates.

---

Hmm? Which is smallest? Tomas De Aquino 07:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

ONE of the smallest. Not THE smallest.

    • Fixed Donald Goldberg 03:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

The following sentence troubles me:

  • Being completely surrounded by Italy, there is no significant difference between the population of San Marino and Italy and many Italians live in San Marino.

The word "population" is certainly wrong, as it suggests the population of Italy and the population of San Marino are roughly the same, clearly an absurd statement. I was going to simply change "population" to "demographics", but I now wonder if even that is correct. Just because it is completely surrounded by Italy and many Italians live there, does not mean that SM's demographics are similar to those of Italy. The population base of SM is far smaller than Italy's, so very different demographic outcomes are surely statistically likely. Who knows the real story? JackofOz 05:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps changing "population" to "populace" would fix this problem? Populace seems to imply a less demographic-based meaning of the word

With a population of <30,000, you'd think that there would be a great deal of intermarriage between Italians and San Marinoans. I am visiting Italy on a study abroad opportunity next summer but I do not know yet what region of the country I will be placed in. I'd be very much interested in visiting San Marino after reading this article. Tmorrisey 00:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC) (yeah yeah I know, "no original research" before anyone starts yelling.)

It doesn't state it in the article, but isn't San Marino the world's only extant nation which can say it took its independence from the Roman Empire? I'm pretty sure that it is.

[edit] Language

In the Emiliano-Romagnolo article it says that San Marinans speak Emiliano-Romagnolo, can anyone verify this?

I believe it is treated as a dialect of Italian, even though it is not one. The official language seems to be Italian. --A Sunshade Lust 03:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Obviously the official language is Italian, the "Romagnolo" is only a dialect --194.183.86.147 22:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. Emiliano-Romagnolo is not a dialect, it is a language of its own, and has not too much to do with Italian. Unfortunately, E-R will most likely become extinct, like other so-called "dialects" of Italian (which in fact they are not!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.205.56 (talk) 23:15, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

During the early phase of the Italian unification process of the 19th century, San Marino served as a haven of refuge for numerous persons who were persecuted because of their support for Italian unity. In memory of this support, the leader of the newly unified Italy accepted the wish of San Marino not to be incorporated into the new Italian state.

It would seem to me, if SM was a haven for those who supported Italian unity, then you would think, when Italy was finally formed, that SM would want to join Italy, being an implicit supporter of a unified Italy and all ... --Canuckguy 05:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The Italian Wikipedia states that Giuseppe Garibaldi and his last remaining troops were first denied asylum in San Marino. When he reapplied, request was granted after Garibaldi promised full independence for San Marino in return for safe haven for him and his troops. Seems quite plausible... Sic? 14:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

This article contradicts itself. in the top it says its the second smallest country in the world... but further down it says it is the third smallest in europe behind monaco and the vatican city. someone get the facts straight, with references :) --NightDragon 03:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

While it is the third smallest sovereign state in Europe, it is only the fifth smallest worldwide. Nauru and Tuvalu are smaller in area. --Polaron | Talk 04:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears to have been taken care of. I removed the tag. Grandmasterka 04:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a contradiction between the USA being the oldest constitutional republic, and San Marino being the oldest constitutional republic?

It has been brought up that San Marino adopted the constitution in the early 1900s. I don't know the history of San Marino well enough to comment. Perhaps this should be clarified? Clamshack 18:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)clamshack

[edit] Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section Location Maps for European countries had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the European continent, and for countries of the European Union exist in two versions. From November 16, 2006 till January 31, 2007, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since January 1, 2007 all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of February 4, 2007 the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old maps.
As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before February 5, 2007 a survey started that will be closed soon at February 20, 2007 23:59:59. It should establish two things: Please read the discussion (also in other sections α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η, θ) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the presentation of the currently open survey. You are invited to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option.
There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote for one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards. — SomeHuman 19 Feb 2007 00:37 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction of the article -- reaching for superlatives?

Some of the points currently in the introduction [1] seem odd to me; for example, "the smallest non-English speaking full member of the United Nations in terms of population." Might as well say "the smallest country beginning with S". We get the point: it's a small country -- we could come up with lots of things that San Marino is smallest at. The "Western European and Others Group" is hardly notable enough to mention in the introduction like that; nor is football competition. Also, "third smallest nation in Europe" is not as notable in my opinion as "fifth smallest nation in the world". But the term "nation" can be ambiguous; I think we really mean sovereign state. I would suggest rewording the introduction as follows:

The Most Serene Republic of San Marino (Italian: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marino) is a sovereign state in the Apennine Mountains, completely surrounded by Italy. One of the European microstates, San Marino is the fifth-smallest sovereign state in the world both by area and by population.[1] It is the least populous member of the Council of Europe.
According to tradition, San Marino is the oldest constitutional republic in the world still existing: it was founded in 301 C.E. by Marinus of Rab, a Christian stonemason fleeing the religious persecution of Roman Emperor Diocletian. San Marino has the oldest written constitution still in effect, dating back to 1600.[2]
  1. ^ Vatican City, Monaco, Nauru, and Tuvalu are smaller in area than San Marino; Vatican City, Tuvalu, Nauru, and Palau are less populous than San Marino. See List of sovereign states by area and List of countries by population.
  2. ^ Law Library of United States Congress. Guide to Law Online: San Marino. Retrieved on 2007-03-29.

Comments? --Mathew5000 08:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Head of Government

Does San Marino have a head of government. I thought that the Captains Regent were the heads of state and the infobox mentions the Secretary of State for Foreign and Political Affairs, but is he the true head of government, or are the Captains Regent both the head of government and the head of state? Therequiembellishere 21:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I wrote to the government of San Marino; these are the emails:
from therequiembellishere@gmail.com
to info.segristituzionale@pa.sm
date Jul 15, 2007 8:30 AM
subject Head of Government
To whomever may be kind enough to answer this,
I must first and foremost apologise for not being able to compose this letter in Italian, as the time is late and I cannot do it at this moment in time.
Of course, I am not e-mailing you to tell of my insomnia, but to ask a question as someone who is avidly into geopolitics and as a contributor to the internet encyclopedia, Wikipedia. There is a question among the community as to whether Secretary of State for Foreign and Political Affairs Fiorenzo Stolfi is the true Head of Government of the Most Serene Republic of San Marino, or if the Captains-Regent Alessandro Mancini and Alessandro Rossi are the Heads of State and Heads of Government. I do not mean this as, for example, Suriname, where their President is the Head of State and Head of Government, though their Vice President exercises a role similar to a Prime Minister.
I would greatly appreciate a quick response as I will not have internet access after two weeks and would like to resolve the problem among the Wikipedia Community as quickly as possible.
Many thanks,
Benjamin (last name omitted)


from antonella.giardi.segristituzionale@pa.sm
to therequiembellishere@gmail.com
date Jul 18, 2007 4:51 AM
subject Fw: Head of Government
Fiorenzo Stolfi is Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Captains Regent Alessandro Mancini and Alessandro Rossi are Heads of State.
The State Congress (Governement) is a "corporate body" composed of 10 Secretary of State and there is no Head of Governement because this specific role is not provided for by our constitution.
Antonella Giardi

Therequiembellishere 23:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Largest City

This page lists Serravalle as largest city, but Serravalle states 'Serravalle is a castello located in the small European republic of San Marino. With a population of 9,394 inhabitants (of that a scarce 2,000 are of foreign origin, conditions 2006) and a surface of 10.53 km², it is not only the most densely populated municipality in San Marino, but it also contains its largest city (Dogana)'. This page lists

[edit] Maps + Municipalities

Might i suggest that the subsection "Municipalities" in Geography be put into the politics section instead, with the municipalities map? Also the Geographic map of San Marino should be put in the Geography section. Bizzmag 14:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emiliano-Romagnolo dialect?

The article says: The language spoken is Italian, with the Emiliano-Romagnolo dialect, and Roman Catholicism is the predominant religion. As far as I am concerned, Emiliano-Romagnolo is not a dialect, but a separate language. It isn't even descended from Italian. --192.194.238.242 (talk) 13:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] oldest constituion?

I believe the US has the oldest?

The U.S. Constitution is the oldest constitution still in effect in the world. Test your knowledge of this important document.

(http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/constitution/quiz/)

The Constitution of the United States is the oldest Federal constitution in existence and was framed by a convention of delegates from twelve of the thirteen original states in Philadelphia in May 1787. The Constitution is the landmark legal document of the United States. (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/index.html)

Many people think of the United States as a young country. Yet it has the oldest written constitution among the major nations of the world. (http://student.britannica.com/comptons/article-9277514/United-States-Constitution)

The oldest federal constitution in existence was framed by a convention of delegates from twelve of the thirteen original states in Philadelphia in May 1787 (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101025.html)

The oldest written national constitution in use, (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9026012/Constitution-of-the-United-States-of-America)

It is the oldest written constitution for an independent state in effect in the world. (http://www.asksam.com/ebooks/us-constitution/) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.194.239.224 (talk) 03:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Music section

I think the current music section is of too much detail and of insufficient relevance for a top level country article. It currently contains:

"San Marino entered the Eurovision Song Contest for the first time, in 2008, with the band Miodio singing Complice. The group failed to make it to the Final from the first semi-final. They were one of only two countries - along with Ireland - to vote for the United Kingdom. The BBC subsequently published a magazine article on its website about San Marino, entitled "Britain's New Best Friend?" [2]."

Any opinions? Thanks/wangi (talk) 16:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)