Talk:San Francisco, California/Archive 4

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Contents 1 Frisco 2 Changed population estimates 3 Proposed change to the naming conventions for US cities 4 TV Guide 5 Suggested improvements to this article 6 Media Section 7 Beaches and parks 8 Tourism section 9 Kearny Street 10 Sister Cities 11 San Fransisco Area Code 12 Religion 13 Art School 14 Map request 15 Demographic information? 16 Footnotes in lead? 17 Sexual orientation (gasp!) ought to be mentioned in lead 18 "Notes", "References", etc., all mixed up 19 Gay and Lesbian population in the lead 20 Requested move 20.1 Survey 20.2 Discussion

[edit] Frisco

Who first created the nickname of Frisco? Many Californians frown upon the nickname. 67.188.172.165 03:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't know. It has been despised for a long time, though:

Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco," which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars. - NORTON I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico, 1872

Everyone in San Francisco frowns on it; it's too easy to confuse with Frito. --Paul 22:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a misconception. It was in widespread use locally for a long time, is still used by some, and seems to be making a comeback. Even Herb Caen admitted it was OK. The original objections appear to be more about class than hometown. I'd gladly bring it back in exchange for the auditorily adominable neologism "San Fran."[1] Lagringa 09:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

"san fran" is a neologism?! i doubt that. Sparsefarce 19:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd be interested in knowing the answer to that, but it would be very hard to find. Maybe it's new to me because I wasn't exposed to non-natives until the '90s. I do think, however, that Herb Caen would have spoke out against it if it were in widespread use when he was alive. He did come out against the "San Fran-cisco" mispronunciation (as opposed to "San Frncisco"), which was obviously a precursor to the odious "San Fran." Lagringa 22:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

When I first migrated to San Francisco in the late 60’s, the nickname “frisco” was widely used by many of my piers. The reason most ceased to use the term was because of Herb Caen. As I recall he stated that to use the term frisco as a name for our beloved city was the equivalent of calling an African American the n-word. Now, most locals despise the name. Infogeek77 09:23, 8 December 2006

I'm 40, grew up in S.F. and have absolutely NO problem with Frisco. It always seemed to me like some strange issue that people who migrate here then seem to take up the issue in order to somehow prove that they're 'in the know' somehow about what it means to be a 'proper' local... are you listening, Yuppies? My dad was a longshoreman, and he tells me that it was always 'Frisco' to him and his workmates.

I may be only half your age but I'm every bit a native San Franciscan and I would never call it the f-word. 192.82.6.26 19:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changed population estimates

To see my reasoning for another article, please see Talk:San Diego, California#Repeated boosterism. The reasoning is the same although the numbers are different. Thank you. Ufwuct 22:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed change to the naming conventions for US cities

Once again there is a proposal to change the Wikipedia's long standing naming convention for US Cities.

There has been a small, but very vocal, and very persistent group of editors who have been trying, without much success, to overturn the "city, state" naming convention for US cities. First they tried at the naming convention level, but failed to achieve consensus for their views. They then changed tactics and tried to change the titles for several US cities, including three failed attempts to move Los Angeles, California, and one each for San Francisco, California and Anaheim, California. The only city that I know where they succeeded (after a couple of different surveys) was Chicago, but even that city has recently been moved back to Chicago, Illinois.

Now there is a revival of a fairly recent proposal to have the article titles for a small number of cities violate the very long-standing "city, state" naming convention. The discussion and voting are currently going on at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)#Associated Press. Since the past debates have ended up involving a large amount of time for California editors, I hope that they will weigh in on this latest proposal. ^BlankVerse 11:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you high? I looked at the archive at Talk:Chicago for when you posted this, and do you know what I found? The article was moved to Chicago from Chicago, Illinois, and there was no attempt to move it back. If you're going to make a claim about an article being moved, you have to remember that people can look to see if it was in fact moved. -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 04:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TV Guide

The Dayton page lists local TV & radio stations by call letters. I think that's a great idea, & should be done here (& on all U.S. city pages, in fact). Trekphiler 06:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested improvements to this article

Suggestions made at Wikipedia:WikiProject San Francisco Bay Area

(snip) I'll also note that even though the San Francisco article is at FA status, there are entire sections without proper citation. Peter G Werner 04:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

:"Geography" (intro part) and "Neighborhoods" – almost no citations; "Beaches and parks" – no citations, even for the statement that Baker Beach contains one of the only existing colonies of Hesperolinon congestum; "Government" – very few citations; "Performing arts" – no citations; "Roads and highways", "Public transportation", and "Seaports" – no citations. Considering Wikipedia's standards about citing sources, I'm surprised the San Francisco article made it to Feature Article status with those oversights. I haven't challenged FA-status for this article since I think with a little (well, maybe a lot) of reference-checking the article could be brought up to FA status, but I think it needs to be done. Peter G Werner 01:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

May be worth discussing how to address this criticism.--DaveOinSF 16:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Comments on these criticisms

Some legitimate complaints, but most of what you criticize as not being cited is a bit overkill.

• "Geography" section

• I think the fact that San Francisco is on the West Coast is common knowledge
• cite which defines the borders of the city limits.
• Cite for height of Mt. Davidson
• City for San Andreas responsibility for 1906 and 1989 quakes
• Cite for Treasure Island created from material dredged from the bay

• "Neighorhoods" section

• almost the entire section is common knowledge. I don't think a cite is necessary to clarify that The Castro is the center of gay life in the city.

• Beaches and Parks"

• cite about the plant, or remove it.
• cite for founding of Buena Vista Park as city's oldest
• rest is mostly common knowledge.

• Government

• Don't know what needs a cite, mostly common knowledge. Link to SF governmetn website maybe?

• "Roads and Highways"

• citation for freeway revolt of the 1950s?
• rest of the section is common knowledge. Is a cite needed to clarify that "Interstate 80 begins at the approach to the Bay Bridge and is the only direct automobile link to the East Bay."?

• Public transportation"

• I can't find anything.

• Seaports"

• cites needed for some of the history of the port.

--DaveOinSF 18:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, an encyclopedia should be informative, so including adequate information is not a problem. Besides, your claim about "common knowledge" might not be true to wikipedians from a foreign country. A "common knowledge" in the US might not be common knowledge in another country. However, your suggestion about improvement is still good as many statements in the article are missing citations. You can edit the article yourself, too. Any effort to improve wikipedia is appreciated. Chris 01:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

What is the city motto/slogan? Shouldn't that be in the stats box at the top? If there isn't one, Yelp had a little contest; my favorite was "10,000 Homeless Can't Be Wrong". MrRedwood 18:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There already is a city motto: Oro en Paz, Fierro en Guerra, which is Spanish for "Gold in Peace, Iron in War." —Kurykh 19:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Media Section

I added to the Media section but would b happy to discuss a new page called "History of San Francisco media" . 67.101.97.68 00:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I think spinning off detail at this level to another article would be entirely appropriate. Folks often complain about the size of the article as it is. --Paul 12:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beaches and parks

Should "San Francisco has the highest percent of its land devoted to parks of any large U.S. city.[2]" be included in the beaches and parks section; I didn't know because it says the section is mature. —Christopher Mann McKay 01:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable addition, but the reference provided doesn't mention where this information comes from. I think we need a better reference before adding it.--Paul 12:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tourism section

The mention of Tony Bennett (sp?) just doesn't sound right. Does anyone agree? DocRocks1 05:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. The sentence with Tony Bennett, the Birdman of Alcatraz, and Rice-a-Roni explains the prior sentence point about San Francisco being well known world wide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul.h (talk • contribs) 12:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Kearny Street

Is it pronounced Karney or Kurney? Thanks, --Vanka5 06:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"Kurney" is correct.--Paul 14:53, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sister Cities

Most City pages have Sister Cities listed, but this one doesn't. Can someone find them and add them. Thanks. RockRNC 00:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

They were removed to another page on purpose. —Kyриx 01:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The link is under "See Also"

• Sister cities of San Francisco, California --Paul 04:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] San Fransisco Area Code

Considering the fact that I have come into such a situation that has me searching for San Fransisco's area code, it's probable that others will, too. If anyone knows the area code, wold they please add it to the article? If it's already there, it would be nice if someone would kindly direct me to it.--Dark Green 21:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"The Jive four-one-five" ^_^ -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 04:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Why is there no information on this? Don't almost every article on a city has it? Manderiko 20:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Art School

I am confused why someone deletes my addition of CCA, California College of the Arts, to the art school section every time I add it?? maxbatt 2:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The CCA entry has been removed at least six times by multiple editors over the last nine months primarily because it is an Oakland based school, not a San Francisco based one. CCA is listed in the daughter article, and of course, the Oakland article. The SF article used to mention UC Berkeley and Stanford, but those were also removed multiple times for the same reasons. The daughter article was created during the Peer Review and FAC processes to cut down on the number of potentially unending lists. In deciding how to manage the summary style for colleges and universities, editors chose the criteria of based or founded in San Francisco. The sole exception is the Cordon Bleu program which was mentioned because of its notoriety in that segment. --Paul 15:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Paul, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but CCA is primarily a San Francisco based school. The undergraduate programs are roughly spread equally between the campuses, and all graduate departments are located in San Francisco. So if you are going to omit it, omit all the art schools; it is wrong to list the others and not CCA- CCA is the most esteemed art school in the Bay Area, with most students in SF. maxbatt 19:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

From the CCA website. The School of the California Guild of Arts and Crafts in Berkeley was founded in Berkeley in 1907, and moved to its campus at Broadway and College Avenue in Oakland in 1922. In 1936 it was renamed California College of Arts and Crafts. The Oakland campus was expanded and improved over the next sixty years, until it first put a facility in San Francisco in 1996 when "the college opened a new permanent San Francisco campus to house the architectural and design programs." I'll admit it isn't black and white, but it seems to be pushing things to call CCA primarily a San Francisco school. It's not that CCA isn't listed -- it's in the daughter article -- it just isn't in the main article, which can't list every school. --Paul 03:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Whatever Paul. I won't try to help out anymore since I guess you editors make your own arbitrary "calls." maxbatt 19:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map request

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in California may be able to help!

There is no good map showing the internal features of the county, such as the entities listed on Neighborhoods in San Francisco, California, nor the county boundaries and territory, including the outlying areas. [3] might be a helpful starting place. -- Beland 23:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's one possibility: http://coffeeratings.com/html/SF-neighborhood-map.shtml

The New Yorkers have one in a bit more detail. Anyone up to creating the SF vertion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manhattan_neighborhoods.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam415 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographic information?

Why was the standard demographic (and geographic) information deleted? There were some important facts there (proportion of men to women, age distribution, etc.) which are absent in the current version of this article. I wanted to restore it, but seeing that there was a large discussion page, I thought it better to ask here. Would it be a good idea to restore the missing information? --Smeira 13:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a reference as to when this information was deleted. The demographics section has been essentially unchanged for the last eight months. Any improvement or referenced addition is welcomed. --Paul 14:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes in lead?

A different article I've been working on recently underwent a featured article review, and it did not pass, with one of the frequent criticisms by reviewers that the lead section should not be heavily footnoted, but should provide a summary of topics that are cited with references in the body of the article. So, the San Francisco article has already passed featured article status. What's with the demand that we footnote undisputed facts (such as the fact that San Francisco is a popular international tourist destination)? That fact was already cited in the article. Can anyone reasonably argue otherwise? -- Sfmammamia 05:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual orientation (gasp!) ought to be mentioned in lead

A few minutes after I edited the mention at the end of the lead of S.F.'s role as a mecca/refuge for LGTers, someone removed it. I think something definitely deserves to be there in the lead. It's an undeniable fact of life in the City that affects everything from politics to economics; to not mention it would be as large and obvious omission as not mentioning the cable cars or that orange bridge up north. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree; ending with just landmarks is bland. But how are we going to word this? I find "non-heterosexual orientation," uh, kind of weird. —Kurykh 04:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Reworded a bit, but I don't think "demographic" is quite the right word. I still find "community" an apt description, but IL2BA objects. —Kurykh 04:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with "non-heterosexual"; it describes LGBT perfectly, and this is spozed to be an encyclopedia, after all, no? So nothing wrong with technical here. +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I never said it is wrong. I just said it is awkward. And when you say not to touch it while discussing, it goes for you too, so let's not have irony in our statements, please. —Kurykh 05:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

New York City doesn't mention that it has the highest percentage of Jews of any big city in the lead, Philadelphia doesn't mention its predominate Italian community. Why is it necessary for the LBGT community to be headlined in the lead of the San Francisco article? Group identity highlighting like this is a fad and non encyclopedic. In 30 years this won't be noteworthy, and hardly is now. --Paul 05:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Also spending all these words: ' non-heterosexual orientation (including gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered, collectively known as LGBT)' to define LBGT in the lead is completely out of proportion and much more out of step with the relative importance of the fact than the initial edit was. --Paul 05:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I can summarize that as "people identifying as LGBT." If only I was permitted. —Kurykh 05:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Point taken about New York and Jews; in defense, I'd say the difference here is that the perceived (and actual) character of San Francisco is more inextricably bound up with its larger-than-average share of gay, lesbian, etc., people. Probably true of Boston as well, but in SF's case, the city is seen as a "gay" city, much more so than, say, New York is known as a "Jewish" city (pace Jesse Jackson's unfortunate remarks). San Francisco does function to some extent as a refuge for LGBT folks, with protections codified into law and an implicit understanding that things like gay-bashing are not tolerated there, so perhaps it does merit mention in the lead. So far as the verbosity goes, I think I used too many words, but I'd still much rather have a more accurate description than some mushy, touchy-feely prose that uses that wretched word, "community". +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

How about stripping down your current version to my above example, and/or maybe expand the LGBT abbreviation whilst including the link? It doesn't have "community" in it. :) —Kurykh 06:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

How about this? I changed it to

It is also known as a haven for people of different sexual orientations, collectively known as LGBT.

Actually, I'd like to add a bit to that to make it more descriptive:

It is also known as a social and legal haven for people of different sexual orientations, collectively known as LGBT.

While it's well-known as a social refuge, it also provides real legal protections, not least of which is the support of city gov't, led by Gavin Newsom, for civil unions. What think you? +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe "different" should be "various" or "a variety of"? Also, "collectively known as" can be "often called the," but I'm not too worried about that. —Kurykh 06:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

"special protections codified into law...so perhaps it does merit mention in the lead." There is no mention in the article of special protections. Nor is there any mention of the city as a refuge. Both of these assertions would be hard to prove with high quality references, and both misrepresent both discrimination against LBGTs and their place in SF. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the body of the article, not an independent editorial. Putting this in the lead will just cause more vandalism to the article than there is now (which is already substantial). The statement is potentially inaccurate and certainly unwise to feature in the lead. --Paul 10:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Notes", "References", etc., all mixed up

Seems to me the reference material in the article is badly organized. First we have a "Notes" section (which in most articles here is called "References"), then a "References" section which redundantly lists only some of the works mentioned in "Notes", then a "Further reading" section.

First of all, I don't see why that "Reference" section is here at all; it seems put there to somehow buttress the "Notes", but that doesn't make any sense to me. Why not put all works actually referenced in the article (via <ref> ... </ref>) into a single section? Why have a separate section to describe books, when they should be already described in the page in the first place?

So there should really only be two sections:

• References, with items tagged as described above (this can include both web links and print publications)
• Bibliography, for books not referenced, or only mentioned in passing in the article.

I think this would make a whole lot more sense, regardless of what the MOS has to say about it. +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• The current appendix organization was adopted when the article was revamped for FAC. Editors followed the guidelines in WP:MOSHEAD, as they were encouraged to do during the FAC review. A review of the FAC process will show that the lack of a "References" section was an obstacle for receiving FAC support. It makes perfect sense to me. "Notes" are footnotes. "References" are the printed resources that the "Notes" were taken from, and "Further Reading" is a list of sources for further reading. If other articles have not followed the guidelines in WP:MOSHEAD, that's more to their detriment than an indictment of what was done in this article. I see nothing wrong with the WP:MOSHEAD recommendations and see no reason to change the current appendix organization.--Paul 07:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

That page to which you referred is by no means the end-all and be-all of how to format the reference material in an article. In fact, most of the articles I edit don't conform to their apparently suggested format:

• See also
• Notes
• References
• Further reading
• External links

So why don't we just forget about that guideline for the time being, and instead focus on what the best solution would be for this article, 'k? +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Paul h. on this one. WP:MOSHEAD and WP:CITE are clear; this article meets both guidelines. In my still somewhat short experience with Feature Article reviews, Wikipedia editors who conduct them can be quite demanding about what needs to be done to references to ensure the article meets WP standards. Clearly the organization of this article's end sections reflected consensus for this article before ILike2BeAnonymous changed it. Further, I don't see how the change improves the end sections. -- Sfmammamia 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, perhaps you could at least humor me by answering my question: what is the purpose of the current "References" section, which supposedly refers to items in "Notes"? Why not just put all references in the article in one place? I'd appreciate hearing your take on this. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gay and Lesbian population in the lead

The final paragraph in the lead does not need to have an overly technical representation of the gay and lesbian population of San Francisco. While the LGBT population of San Francisco is certainly one of its most internationally recognizable elements, it is one aspect of the many things that are recognizable about San Francisco and should probably be included in the lead, I would prefer that all the items listed there maintain a parallel structure.--71.6.12.114 02:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

So what, specifically, are you objecting to here? +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, this is an article about San Francisco. Defining LGBT is what wikilinks are for and doesn't need to be done here, and certainly not in the lead paragraph. Second of all, the sentence which I removed is not in parallel structure with the rest of the items which are listed. Including the LGBT population as one of the many recognizable elements of San Francisco - along with the fog, the architecture, etc - is by far the most neutral way of including it in this article.--71.6.12.114 02:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I much prefer the most recent version by 71.6.12.114. 1) it doesn't use "haven" which conjures up images of the Warsaw ghetto, 2) it isn't tacked on to the end of the paragraph as an afterthought, and 3) it doesn't have the definition. MUCH better.--Paul 02:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Dunno about the Warsaw Ghetto, but the inescapable fact is that SF is a haven for gay/lesbian, etc., folks, who are, let's not forget, still subject to measurable levels of discrimination, threats, intimidation, etc., elsewhere. Some mention of that fact would be warranted, even in the lead (provided it didn't upset the "parallel structure" of that section too much). +ILike2BeAnonymous 03:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

A light mentioning of the LGBT is good enough. This article is for SF, not directly about LGBT. Though I do think that SF is a haven for the gay population. Chris! _{my talk} 04:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's the thing; not only is it a haven for gays & lesbians, but that is one of the defining characteristics of the city. Not mentioning that up front is kind of like trying to describe Mecca with no mention of Islam. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, that might sounds a little pov as it might be different to everyone. But I do agree with you. Chris! _{my talk} 04:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No one will argue with the fact that SF is known for its large LBGT population. However, a great many people will argue with the statements that 1) SF is a "haven for LGBT," and that 2) this is a defining characteristic of the city. The first kind of statement arguably might belong in the lead of the SF article. The second set of statements, if they belong anywhere, would make most sense in an article on LBGT politics or sociology. Finally, the second set of statements is tarnished with POV and is almost impossible to back up with an unbiased verifiable source. It's best to leave the lead as it is now.--Paul 05:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's not really disputable whether that is a defining characteristic of San Francisco; pretty much everybody from Act Up! on the one hand and those bigots from Kansas who descend on the city periodically on the other hand would agree on that much. It's not really a tangential statement, like what kind of engines Muni buses use, or whatever. Of course, this doesn't prove that it should go in the lead, but I think it's a pretty compelling argument for some mention there. In fact, I object to the current state of things, with this "LGBT" thing stuck in there (how many people are going to know what that means?). We can and should do better.

So far as "defining characteristic of the city" goes, that could simply be implied by saying something like "... is known for ..." or similar. No need to introduce bias (aka "POV") into the article. But really, nobody can argue that it isn't a "haven". +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move