Talk:Samuel of Bulgaria

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[edit] Macedonists,face these facts

)Samuil proclaims himself king of Bulgaria and all the Bulgarians in the Samuilovo borderstone. 2)When Roman,son of king Peter flees from the Byzantine prison he is welcomed by Samuil and crowned in Vidin for king of Bulgaria. 3) After Preslav is plundered by Svetoslav the Bulgarian patriarch Damyan flees to Ohrid. 4) When Bulgarian king Roman is captured again in battle,Samuil does not proclaim himself king and remains Roman's general till Roman's death 10 years later 5) The man who defeats Samuil's army and blinds 14000 soldiers ,Basil the Second Macedon, is called for this cruelty "Bulgaroctonos" (Bulgarian-slayer) 6) After the fall of Samuil's kingdom in 1018,the area around his capital Ohrid is called theme Bulgaria 7) in 1040 Peter Deljan declares himself king of Bulgaria and starts uprising against Byzantines,claiming he is heir to the comitopuli dynasty 8) Samuil's father was governor of Sredec area,one of the biggest and the strongest in those days Bulgaria.He remained loyal to king Peter even when discontent Bulgarian bolyars tried to depose him. 9)All contemporaries describe Samuil's kingdom as Bulgaria and the predominant population there as Bulgarian.This includes Byzantine,Armenian,Arabic sources. 10)On all maps drawn in those years and later in the Middle Ages Samuil's kingdom is depicted as Bulgaria. 11) Bulgarian nation had nothing to do with the proto-bulgars.We have evidence that it was predominantly slavic even in the 9 century,when the Slavic language was accepted as official clergy language in Bulgaria. 12)Bulgarian nation had nothing to do with the protobulgars.It was created by the closely related Slavs in Misia,Thrace,Macedonia. 13) In a mission in 972 the envoys of Samuil say they come from the second Bulgaria,refering to the First Bulgaria,devasted by the Russians and the Greeks.Samuil was king of the second Bulgaria,because he restored the Bulgarian statehood. 14)Samuil's capital moved constantly because of the Byzantine aggression.At first it was probably Sredets,the seat of Samuil's father 15) Samuil is described as a Bulgarian ruler in the first "History of Bulgaria",written by the monk Paisii in 1762,long before we can talk about Bulgarian nationalism and Bulgarian aspirations towards Macedonia.Moreover,he was born in Bansko,Pirin Macedonia. 16)SAmuil always strived to re-conquer the lost Bulgarian capital Preslav and to control it. 17) All world scientists and historians agree that Samuil is Bulgarian king.All authorative encyclopedias state that he is Bulgarian 18)Check Samuil on all languages in Wikipedia that have article about Samuil: they say Samuil king of Bulgaria.The only exceptions are the Serbian and the Macedonian... 19) The theory about Samuil as a king of Slovenes(not of Macedonians) is made by Serbian chauvinists and used for political aims for dissolution of Bulgaria and detaching of some of its territory to Serbia.According to it the Bulgarians are extinct tatar tribe,so we do not rightfully use the name Bulgarians;we are Shopi,Dobruzanci,and so on Slavs.Yes,Samuil was king of Slovenes.Of these slovenes,living in Misia,Thrace and Macedonia, who were called Bulgarians,because they lived in the land of the Bulgars...as nowadays Macedonians have nothing to do with the antic ones and only have the common name due to the geographical area.The population of Bulgaria of Samuil was salvic so the arguement whether Samuil was king of Bulgarian Slavs or Bulgars is of no importance. 20)Even in Macedonian history books there is a picture where over the heads of the blinded soldiers is written simply "Boulgaroi" - Bulgarians —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitosha (talk • contribs) 21:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] notes

"Веднага след смърта на император Йоан(976)българите въстанали и били определени да ги управляват четиримата братя: Давид,Мойсей,Арон и Самуил,синове на един от велмощните комитопули у българите... ...Така Самуил станал самовластен господар на цяла България.Той бил войнствен човек,който НИКОГА не знаел ппокой.Пренесъл мощите на свети Ахил...и ги положил В Преспа,където били неговите дворци"

                       Йоан Скилица,"История"11 век.



Бугариja и Македониja нат всичко!!!

Shouldn't note 12 point to II,435-436 instead of 335-336?Baltaci

???

[edit] Date of Aron's Death

Aron was killed after the battle at the Trajan's Gates in which he took part on August 17, 986. Check: 1. the Bitola Inscription; 2.Zlatarski, Vol. I, part 1; 3. Pirivatrich

When exactly David and Moses were killed is unknown. For David there is a terminus post quem - 976, according to Skylitza, and a terminus ante quem - 992/993, given by the inscription from German. Dobrin 13:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"In any case, it is certain that Moses was killed in 986 and Aron in 987 or 988." In detail see: Adontz, Nikoghayos. Samuel l'Armenien, Roi des Bulgares. In: Etudes Armeno-Byzantines. Livraria Bertrand. Lisbonne, 1965, Pp. 347-407 (357). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karim Ali (talk • contribs) 05:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] If the truth is important!!!

About the truth - please look all the languages in Wikipedia,which have an article about Samuil - you will read - Samuil,king of Bulgaria.The only pages that maintain the Serbian theory that Samuil is macedonian king are the Serbian and the Macedonian.So,should we presume that the whole world is in delusion by the "Bulgarian propaganda" or that this theory just lacks proof? According to the Samuil's inscription,found in 2004 Samuil declares himself king of all Bulgarians.There is a theory that he did it in order to secure himself recognition by Rome(?).Well,many Bulgarain rulers proclaimed themselves "Tsar of all Bulgarians and Romeans" in order to gain greater recognition and power worldwide.So SAmuil had to proclaim himself king of all Macedonians and Bulgarians.He did not.As far as Serbian historical and scientific theories are concerned,I want to mention the theory that a Bulgarian nation does not exist.The Bulgars were a small tribe that vanished in the Slavic sea,leaving only its name.So Bulgaria is a name of a historical region,there is no Bulgarian nation(?) therefore and all the Slavs living there can be divided into Shopi,Dobrujanci,Thrakiici,Macedonci,so on. This is Serbian istoriography in the 19 century,used for political aims. The Bulgarain character of Samuel's kingdom is undisputable.He cannot be a leader of Macedonian state,such a priviledge falls to his greater enemy and destructor of his state,BasilII Macedon,who is called Bulgaroctonos,because he conquered Bulgaria,not Macedonia.The theory that Samuel's kingdom was different from Bulgaria,because it was situated in a different georegion is also ridiculous - in those days these lands were Bulgarain territories.But the biggest proof is that Samuel declares himself a king only after the death of the Bulgarian king Roman.He waits 20 years until the real king dies in Tsarigrad's prison.This annuls all the theories about Macedonian uprising.Uprising? Against whom? Probably against the Ucrainians and the Byzantinies who had conquered Eastern Bulgaria?About the lack of titles as boil and ichirguboil these titles appeared to vanish even of the time of king PeterI.Samuil's father Nikola was komitopul (governor)of Sredec,present day Sofia.Will the Bulgarian king assign to this positon a representative of the "macedonian" minority?A man whose sons after that will lead un uprising against the Bulgarian state ( which de-facto ceased to exist before Samuil)Or will he assign it to a dependable man,whose sons will strive after that ot save Bulgaria from Byzantium?Bulgaria was crushed by the invaders from the east - Ucrainians,who united with Byz.No proof about "macedonian uprising" no proof for macedonian nation till the beggining of the 20 century ( The IMRO manifesto of 1924,not signed by its greatest leaders as Todor Alexandrov and Dame Gruev)The character of the lands around the lake Ochrida in those days is shown clearly by the biggest enemies of the Bulgarian statehood.The Byzantines call this area simply Bulgaria.Why do the Croats and the Magyars say that they fought with a Bulgarian king? Why even in the Macedonian history books there is a picture of the soldiers,blinded after the battle of Klyuch and over their heads it is simply written Bougaroi (Bulgarains)


If the truth is important,I think that we can't accept the thesis of this article.It's no evidence that tzar Samuil is succesor of Bulgarian tzars(hans) before.Close to truth is the thesis that Samuil with his brothers led the uprising against bulgarian tzar,and crush the Bulgarian state.Himself afterwards take the crown of bulgar's tzar,but this is an political act,because slaves on Balkans never before haven't the state or crown,and the recognition from the pope is more than necessary for Samuil.So Samuil with this act like to use just benefits of bulgarian crown,like Gothic leadar Odoacer who crush Rome,and like to take the crown of Roman emperor.

But there are diferences on political an military organization of Samuil empire and previously Bulgarian empire(no more bulgarian titles "kavhan" and "boil".Also Samuil conquest the teritories,never before in Bulgarian empire,and makes conection with slavic princedoms of Rashka and Zeta,like no other bulgarian tzar before.Also the capital of empire was a city of Ohrid-about 1000km western from Preslav who was the capital of previously Bulgarian state.The same think with the seat of ortodox church-in Ohrid,not in Preslav. After the death of Samuil and crushing of his empire by Byzantines,it's appear a few uprisings against the Byzantines(for example:those leaded by Petar Delyan,and Constantin Bodin)and all those uprising is on teritory from Nis to Salon,hundreds miles western from Preslav who was the center of previously Bulgarian might.It's no uprising at this time with target to take Preslav from Byzantines,and restore the might and glory of previous Bulgarian empire. So for the glory of truth,I can't say that the acts of Samuil has been for favour of Bulgarians,and for favour of previously bulgarian dinasty.

With respect, Vasil Pandev

Let me guess - you're an ethnic Macedonian. What slaves are you talking about? And moreover what true? Yours? Who told you all these things? Or you just read them in the Internet. I'm glad though you did not try to write this stuff in the article first. --Laveol T 10:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
It turns out I was wrong - you did put it in the article --Laveol T 10:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

This you can find everywere,in every book.I found these data in bulgarian handbook who use foreign students for preparation for Bulgarian high education. The problem is interpretation of facts.If some of that was I write is wrong,then correct me.

"What slaves are you talking about?" I must say that Bulgarians have been nationaly awake in this time.But, in X century in Slaves on Balkans and elsevere no nations,and national feelings(not on that kind like today).They just know that are different from Bulgars(i think on Bulgars-tataric people). And I'm not ethnick Macedonian.

Why are you think that I'm Macedonian?

You are Macedonain my friend. It is obvious from your lack of knowledge about history.Calling Bulgars tataric people shows it clearly.Tatars were a mongoloid people,who came to the Balcans in the 13 century (actually inflicting a lot of destruction to the Bulgarians,living here and the Bulgars living on the Volga river)Bulgars were a Sarmatian people,they are depicted as a highly - statured white people,with own alphabet and culture.Second - Bulgarain nation did exist in those days,in difference to all other nations in Europe.And it was nation of the Slavs in Bulgaria.The official language was the Slavic one.Salvs accepted the Bulgars and created a styate with them in Moesia and Macedonia ( Asparuh and Kuber) With the years this state became predominantly slavic

Because You/they are the only once who call Bulgarians Tatars. I see there's no more to discuss with you. --Laveol T 15:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The only territories conquerred during the reign of Samuil which were not previously held by the earliers Emperors were the lands around Saraevo and western Monte Negro. It is natural for a ruler to extend borders as much as he can, even if they were not held by his state before: ) What were the relations with Rashka and Zeta??? The same as during Emperor Simeon or Khan Presian: he conquerred them and forced Prince Ivan Vladimir to become his official - exactly what did Simeon before. Both principalities were included into Bulgaria, these are not relations but conquest. It is natural to find a new capital as the previous one has been conquered... And the choice of Ohrid is close to everyone's mind: it has been a cultural and administrative centre of the western Bulgarian lands since the reign of Boris I, and it is far away from Constantinople, so it was a wise decision to establish his seat there (the second fall of Preslav in 1001 proved that). It is natural for countries to change their capital when needed; the same did Turkey which moved it to Ankara because Instanbul was dangerously close to the border; Russia has also changed the capital and many other states... The explanation for the Patriarch is the same: Silistra was also seized by the Byzantines and the Patrairch Damian fleed westwards where he was accepted by Samuil. Also when Samuil reconquered North-Eastern Bulgaria he executed the nobles who supported the Byzantines as traitors, why he should do that if he is conquiring these lands for a new Empire?! It is natural that the first rebellions would break out around the last political centres of the Bulgarian Empire. Belgrad was never held by any Serb state up to 1040 when the rebellion of Petar II Delyan broke out; it has always been a Bulgarian town, as were the lands around the Morava river and others. And his name was Delyan, why did he chose Petar?! And you know who Petar I was: the example for the "good Emperor" for the Medieval Bulgarians.
There are so many other things but I agree with Laveol: there is no point to discuss that with brainwashed people. It is awful what did the serbs to our nation; if the people of Macedonia tries to thing neutral away from the constant propagande released by their government, I hope that one day they will understand the truth. Regards, --Gligan 16:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous...and I'm not surprised.Maybe some day the bulgarians will prove that the first man on the moon was bulgarian. Every discussion with you people is redundant...i thought here can find people who like to think like scientists and neutral historians,but i found just a few people in the service of megalomanic bulgarian propaganda.

Well, this article is as neutral as it can get. Who are we to say what the ethnicity of Samuil was as scientists from all the world have already determined that for sure. I'm really sorry if you find this offensive. There is not always just one truth - but in this case there is only one. And your 20th century nation does not feature in it. --Laveol T 18:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the ethnicity of Samuil,but about his acts.And that "nation from 20 century" is not fall from the sky in this century.We are here for a long time.

Yup, it took a lot of hard work in the end of XIX and beginning of the XX century to achieve it. If you have any objections to the article, please, state them and back them up with reliable (non Yugo-macedonian) sources. --Laveol T 10:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

A note to my Macedonian colleague

I think we should talk seriously to square the differences between us. Accusing each other won't help, so I won't use words such as "brainwashed" or "megalomanic". I think there is some logic in your initial statement, but it's still wrong, because you lack the base to prove it. When you state that Samuil and his brothers led an uprising "against the Bulgarian tzar" you give an interpretation of the story which our source, Skylitza, has left us. I underline the word interpretation, because Skylitza's account of this event is too sketchy and doesn't allow any certain conclusions. One thing is certain - at the time of Samuil's emergence there was no tzar in Preslav, because Peter was dead and his sons were hostages in Constantinople. So could it be just a fight for power among aristocratic fractions during an interregnum? This theory has as much base in the sources and is as much unconvincing as the one that you are defending. But let's assume that you are right and Samuil's rise was in fact a secession from Bulgarian rule. How could you explain what happened about ten years later. In 978/979 Roman, the surviving son of Peter, became tzar, recognized by Samuil and Aron. I'm sure you will find an explanation that will suit your point, but I think this fact is a much telling proof of Roman's authority. Two more things: 1. To your question why Ohrid instead of Preslav: In 476 AD when Odoacer deposed the last Western Roman emperor, the latter's seat was Ravenna (not Rome which was sacked about 20 years earlier by the Vandals). 2. There were "kavhans" in the Samuil's state, there were for sure at the time of his heirs in 1015. The leader of the 1072 uprising, Georgi Voiteh, was a descendant of the kavhan family

Regards, Dobrin 21:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


It was a BULGARIAN Empire

Samuel NEVER said about "Macedonia or "Macedonians" who were their ENEMIES (Basil II the Bulgaroctonus of the Byzantine Macedonian dynasty)

SIMEON STATE'S MAP [1]

SAMUIL STATE'S MAP[2]

BULGARIA THEME IN SKOPJE AND OHRID [3] [4] [5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.0.219 (talk) 11:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] map

Is there a change of color from West to East or it's just my LCD screen? If yes, what does it mean?Baltaci 17:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is, but it's just a gradient to make it look better :) Todor→Bozhinov 19:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Failed

I've made some grammar/clarification edits. After those edits, I'm failing it for these issues, sorted by section of the WP:WIAGA:

1. Well written?

(a)Prose and grammar: Yes

  • The article is looking a lot better than when I first read it. Due to the other criticisms, give the article a thorough once through copyedit after dealing with the below.
  • I've placed some "huh" tags requesting clarification for some sentences or statements that I couldn't figure out by myself.
There's been confusion about these - for the Roman castrated one, say that he was taken captive by the Byzantine patrol; that he was in captivity and then got castrated comes from nowhere.
For the tag about the arm healing - 140 degrees with respect to what? His head? His trunk?--Meowist 18:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

(b)Complies with Wikipedia:Manual of Style: Mostly pass

  • The last paragraph of Disaster at Kleidon describes his legacy/aftermath and should be improved/grown and placed as a new "Aftermath" or "Legacy" section.

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?

  • Mostly yes, needs cites in some places. I've tagged the significant ones in the Others section. However, like one poster in the talk pages stated, this article needs more citations, not less. Particularly in sections "Advance of the Byzantines" and "Family".

3. Broad coverage? (a) Addresses major aspects: Yes, except for one "little" detail.

  • When was this guy born?! First sentences in Early Life section tell me about his parents and then say that in 970 he was co-ruling with 3 other guys. How old was Samuil then?
That is unknow; we can only guess; he was probably around his 20s by then (970). Analyses of his scull show that we was perhaps around 70 when he died. We don't have any information for his life before 970.--Gligan 17:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Then please insert that estimate and source (i.e. the source you used for the grave part) to give the reader some idea of his age at the time --Meowist 18:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

(b) Stays focused on topic:

  • This article seems to drift at times into unneccessary details. The reader is required to keep in mind a sizeable list of characters and places (Gavrail Radomir,various cities, Roman,Geva,etc.) in order to follow the story. I've tried to make this easier by putting in explanatory clauses like "Gavril Radomir, Samuil's eldest son and heir,...". But I'm currently at a loss for how to alleviate the overall problem. Compare with the structuring of the text of a GA article like, say, Suleiman the Magnificent, to maybe get some ideas for how to fix this.
Well, when you describe a Medieval ruler, you should describe what happenned in his country during his reign; these thing cannot be written somewhere else; after all this is not an article for the person Samuil but for the ruler Samuil; in fact the characters are not so many, there have to be even more: ) I strongly object against any removal of information from the article.--Gligan 17:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand that the article is about Samuil the ruler and what happened under his watch, but the reader is thoroughly inundated with details. What I'm saying is that detail alone and by itself makes for a disorienting read, you must give the details a context. I'll give you examples of where this happens:
  • "The major successes in the west raised justifiable fears in Constantinople, and after serious preparations, Basil II launched a campaign in the very centre of the Bulgarian Empire in order to distract Samuil from southern Greece."
  • "Between 1006 and 1013, neither side achieved any significant success and there was no change in the balance of power."
There are more examples, but these are the sort of sentences that make everything easier to follow. Also, there are places where detail given has nothing to do with the current section and historical time and belongs elsewhere, ex: the subsequent treason of Ashot and one of Samuil's daughters in mentioned in the Betrothal section and also in Further Byzantine Successes (where it belongs). --Meowist 18:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

4. Neutral: Yes, well done with the inclusion of the Other Theories section. But, it needs just one or two cites more.

5. Stable: Presumably, if people don't insist on edit warring over bizarre notions of extending national ownership into the Middle Ages.

6. Images ish: Heh. Medieval chroniclers really can't draw...

That about sums it up for now. I'd be glad to discuss these issues and how they could be amended. --Meowist 10:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the useful comments and the assessment! I hope that with some additional work the current shortcomings of the article can be eliminated and it would achieve GA level. As for the birth date, it is simple: as far as I know, it has not been specified in any contemporary source, so we couldn't possibly know it :) Todor→Bozhinov 15:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another map

I found this map on the German Wikipedia. We might be able to squeeze it somewhere - what do you think? --Laveol T 22:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that this map is well-sourced but I don't find it very helpful mainly for two reasons. First, it says "about year 1000". This period is very fateful for Samuil, Bulgaria, and Byzantium, and the imprecision of the date means much. We do not know if this is for the period before 1018, or after that, that is, if Bulgaria is the state ruled by Samuil, or the Byzantine thema Bulgaria, decreed by Basil II in 1018. Second, the scale is very small, and if this have to illustrate the activity of Samuil (battles, towns, etc.), it cannot do this. In short, I think we have to look for another map. Lantonov (talk) 08:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

A request has been made for this article to be copyedited by the League of Copyeditors. Please add the code:
}}{{LOCE|{{{s}}}|class=articletype|title=Samuel of Bulgaria|date=~~~~~
to the bottom of the requests page, replacing articletype by the classification of this article.

[edit] Latest edit by Ireland101

I'm going to remove this sentence - don't get me wrong I appreciate such a mention, but it is hardly encyclopedic - look at all the other sources for Samuil's rain - they're all from all established historians and the RoM government just does not fit in there. The article should stay clear and informative as it is not some stub or start class one and only reliable (reliable in this particular case means a reliable historian as this is a historical issue) sources should be accepted. And again I have nothing against the statement itself or the ROM government site, but you should look up a reliable source for this (a mention in a history book with a further analysis if possible. --Laveol T 17:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying and I think it would only be fair to remove the Bulgarian sources to the article as well as I am sure they are equally reliable. Because it is biased to only remove Macedonian sources. Ireland101 (talk) 03:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Do not remove sources written by reliable historians with hundreds of publications on the topic. I am going to revert your edit. Do not do this again. Lantonov (talk) 06:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Perusing the references again, however, I think that this one should be removed:

It is from the Bulgarian government web site, and seems to be a chapter of a book. This should go here only as a full citation of the book, with the author(s) and ISBN number. Lantonov (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nomenclature

The following paragraphs are not what Wikipedia does. We do not exist to refute arguments, however frivolous; we exist to describe them. If claims are held by a vanishingly small contingent, we ignore them, as we would do here if Ostrogorsky were not one of the scholars involved. (I will check what he actually said; this is unintelligible.)

In addition to the internationally established treatment of facts regarding Samuil's life and rule,<:ref>Hupchick, Dennis P (2004). The Balkans: From Constantinople to Communism. Palgrave MacMillan. ISBN 1-4039-6417-3. </ref> there also exists a minority theory. Initially it was popularized by political reasons in Kingdom of Serbia and then further developed in Yugoslavia by D. Anastasijević, G. Ostrogorrsky and others. In his book History of the Byzantine State<:ref>The history of the Byzantine State (selected chapters) by George Ostrogorsky — Medieval Greek images[6]</ref> Ostrogorsky wrote that all contemporaries and the people of Samuil's state believed it was a Bulgarian empire, but because of its different, westernmore placing it was another state. Anastasijević claimed that the state Samuil ruled was in fact a separate Slavic Empire.<:ref>Анастасиевић, Д. Н. Хипотеза о Западноj Бугарскоj, Гласник Скопског научног друштва, кн. III, Скопље, 1928.</ref> It was founded as a result of an anti-Bulgarian rebellion of the Comitopuli, as opposed to a continuation of the Bulgarian state. Today this theory is only popular in the Republic of Macedonia, also to a lesser extent in Serbia (with modern scholars such as S. Pirivatrić rejecting it).<:ref>Пириватрић, Самуилова држава: обим и карактер.</ref> In Republic of Macedonia it is often changed to refer to a "Macedonian Slavic" or even only "Macedonian" Empire.<:ref>An outline of Macedonian history from ancient times to 1991. Macedonian Embassy London. Retrieved on 2007-04-28.</ref> This is despite the different location of the geographic area of Macedonia in the Middle Ages and the anachronism.[1]
Authoritative modern encyclopedias such as Encyclopædia Britannica<:ref>Reign of Simeon I. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved on 2007-04-28.</ref> and Encarta<:ref>Bulgaria: The First Bulgarian Empire. Encarta. Retrieved on 2007-04-28.</ref> both consider Samuil a Bulgarian ruler, and the Columbia Encyclopedia clearly states that it was the Bulgarian Empire that crumbled under Byzantine attacks in 1018.<:ref>Bulgaria — Early History. Columbia Encyclopedia Sixth Edition (2000). Retrieved on 2007-04-28.</ref> Older issues such as the Great Soviet Encyclopedia also stated Samuil was Tsar of West Bulgaria.<:ref> "Самуил", Большая Советская Энциклопедия (in Russian). Rubrikon. Retrieved on 2007-05-25. </ref>

We do not go on about "authoritative encyclopedias"; we do not claim political motivation without an explicit source. If Ostrogorsky were still alive, this would be a WP:BLP violation. (And the only reason to cite the Great Soviet Encyclopedia is to quote it as an illustration of some assertion, sourced to some secondary source, of an official Soviet view; it is not a reliable source.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I have drafted a replacement, which makes, I think, the same points insofar as they are encyclopedic. I agree, as will be seen, on the substance; it is the tone that WP cannot include. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


  • "Samuel's empire had its heartlands west and southwest of those of the First Bulgarian Empire; Samuel also spoke Slavic, like the modern Bulgarians, but unlike the Turkic or Iranic language of the Old Bulgars. On these grounds, the White Russian-Yugoslav scholar George Ostrogorsky distinguished strongly between the two Bulgarian Empires."
  • Just a comment on that passage. The language which Samuil spoke was exactly the language that Simeon I or Peter I spoke. The Slav element in the Bulgarian language strengthened during the reign of Boris I (852-889). On that basis there can't be any distinction in Samuil's Bulgaria and Peter's Bulgaria. --Gligan (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The borders of Byzantine Province of Macedonia during the reign of Tsar Samuil
The borders of Byzantine Province of Macedonia during the reign of Tsar Samuil

There are three problems with this image.

  • The caption needs work in any case: John Tzimisces divided the Macedonian theme into two; so it did not exist in Tsar Samuel's reign.
  • Themes were not named for geography; they were named for the military units operating there during the seventh century crisis. The Thracesian theme is in Asia Minor, not in Thrace. So the argument that Macedonia cannot have meant Ochrid is weak.
  • In any case, I would read Ostrogorsky as using "Macedonia" in the conventional sense frequent until recently, and prevalent since 1878: the inlands of the Gulf of Salonica, so called as a classical reference. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boris II

The present text is less than clear. Treadgold and Ostrogorsky agree than the Byzantines were allied with Svyatoslav against the Bulgarians; and then turned on the Russians, capturing Boris II in the process. This does not leave much room for an alliance between Boris and John for the Cometopuli to rebel against.

  • What is the source for the Isker? It doesn't seem to be Ostrogorsky. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
    • It is Zlatarski p.596. Unfortunately this is in Bulgarian and I don't know where to find a translation. --Gligan (talk) 20:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
      • He does not appear to have been translated; but that page reference would be more useful with the year of the edition cited. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

There is no clear consensus for the move. But the guidelines suggest use English, and those suggesting a move point to reliable sources. The argument against moving is not that it is against common usage or Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), but that "I think that if this page is going to be renamed per Using English so should be all pages referring those rulers." This is not a justification based on Wikipeida policy or guidelines, as each page ought to be considered on its merrits. If some of those who had opposed had put forward other arguments instead of "per Giligan" I would have considered those arguments as well, but the only other one put forward is Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias but is a project and not a naming policy or guideline and anyway it does not apply to using English names for articles.

So on balance of the arguments presented I have decided to move this page to Samuel of Bulgaria --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 16:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

  • Support as nom. Using English names would significantly clarify the article. This is one of four brothers, named David, Moses, Aaron, Samuel. It would help if the ordinary reader could see that use of Old Testament names, without having to struggle through multiple transliterations. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the rulers of culturally linked to Bulgaria countries such as Russia and Serbia are written in that manner. I think that if this page is going to be renamed per Using English so should be all pages referring those rulers. Apart from the obvious good reason to clarify the meaning of the Biblical names, it has a major minus in that sense - it would cause a mess with the names of the Bulgarian rulers. Perhaps we should make a wilder discussion whether all rulers from these three countries should be renamed. --Gligan (talk) 19:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Gligan. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose because I don't see why we should start somewhere. And even if we were to decide that starting somewhere was a good idea, this is the wrong thing to be doing. Pointless anglicisation is so 1911. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Treadgold wrote in 1997; the ODB is from 2001. Which of these is 1911? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:UE guided by sources listed in nom. It is consistent with other similar figures such as Samuel's brother, Moses of Bulgaria. And pointless slavicisation is so 1991. — AjaxSmack 02:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Asoghik and Nicholas Adontz are using the name "Samuel". Karim Ali 04:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support The fact that Samuel is used within ODB is enough to convince me.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Gligan Чарльз - жопа (talk) 08:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Gligan, Angus McLellan, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. Another reason: 'Samuil' disambiguates this ruler so instead of Samuel of Bulgaria the article can become Samuil II. This is in line with the naming policy for monarchs. --Lantonov (talk) 09:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

A chuckle for AjaxSmack.

One reason I cite the ODB is that it takes an extreme anti-anglicization position, resulting in such forms as Doukas for English Ducas; we have followed them, possibly to excess. It only anglicizes in such cases as Constantine or here, where not doing so would be extremely artificial. Therefore English sources are not divided here; the two camps agree. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

AjaxSmack made a good point. But I suspect if there is a slightly disrespect for certain ethnics: I have no strong opinion in this issue, but it would be not totally balanced, if some Greek names are simply transliterated and some Bulgarian names are not. And I am not so much troubled with Samuil, either, so prefer to stay neutral. --Aphaia (talk) 22:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

In spite of the majority: 5 oppose to 4 support, this unfortunate ruler was renamed from Samuil to Samuel, and won't find this article if he googles for his name from heaven. So much for democracy. --Lantonov (talk) 09:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

In response to Lantonov: surely he will google bg:Самуил, rather than any Latin alphabet? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, he might want to know what his Roman enemies say about him :). Anyway, it was just a group opinion. No strong prejudice either way. --Lantonov (talk) 06:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aaron's death

I have copyedited this section; but I find its moralizing both non-neutral (just because it's moralizing) and weird. Aaron is condemned for wanting sole power; so Samuel executes him and his family, and ascends to sole power as a result, unremarked upon. If we are going to be judgmental, why are we using a double standard? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I amended Aaron's "kin" to his family, since kin would in English certainly include Samuel himself, Aaron's brother. Is this intended to mean his wife's family? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It was Aron who plotted against Samuil and the later had to defend himself. Above all in the course of the negotiations between Aron and Basil II, Aron agreed that he would accept the suzerainty of the Byzantine Emperor which was treason. Samuil did nothing of the two. --Gligan (talk) 08:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
This may show a deep misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is. I apologize to any to whom what follows is as obvious as it is unorginal:
We do not voice the judgment of posterity; we are not qualified to do so. We are a tertiary source; we collect what actually happened, as secondary sources tell us it was; those who wish to don judicial robes are welcome to use those facts. In particular, we do not judge the tenth century by the standards of the nation-states of the nineteenth; every age is immediate to God. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I will remove the tag. Aron is not judged. Here we can find only a description of his death because he was plotting with the enemy which is high treason. Nowhere is written that he was evil or something of the sort. --Gligan (talk) 13:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Transliteration of "ъ"

I saw your comment on the FA candidate page but as it was deleted I will answer here. As there is no common rule for transliteration of Bulgarian Cyrillic (there are several versions) both "a" and "u" (as well as sometimes "â") can be used. In my opinion the usage of "a" is more common and I use it (it is used in most Bulgarian-related topic in the English Wikipedia such as Tarnovo, Nessebar and so on). --Gligan (talk) 16:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. My comment has also disappeared, so let me express deep appreciation for the grunt work you have done. This is not mere arbitrary policy:
The principal use to the reader of a Latin transliteration would be searching library catalogs on-line, for which we need the same system the catalogs use. Please check a few, if you don't mind, and see which they do use. This is a low priority, but it is more important that our readers be able to find Zlatarski's book than that they pronounce it almost correctly. (But having his name in Roman script is more than half the battle, and our readers do now.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
done. I've included your comments. That should do. WorldCat appears to divide about evenly between a and u. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Post-FA comments

I just noticed that the FA had been closed. While all of my initial comments were addressed, there are more that should be addressed before the next FA nomination.

    • I've done an initial copyedit to improve the flow and tighten the prose, but there are still some POV-ish areas. Part of this is due to an overuse of adjectives - Samuil and those on his side are always given adjectives like "brave", "loyal", etc, which those on the opposing side tend to have more negative descriptions.
    • I've added two citation needed tags and see two more in the article.
    • This is out of date: "His mortal remains are currently kept in a secret location in Greece, but according to a recent agreement, they may be returned to Bulgaria and buried in the SS. Forty Martyrs Church in Veliko Tarnovo by April 2007, where they shall rest along with the remains of two other emperors, Kaloyan and Michael Shishman"
    • There's also a dubious tag on the information about his appearance
    • There is another in the first section. To not give undue weight to one theory over another, it might be wise to move the information in family section about his brothers and parentage to the first section. You can present both sides there.
    • This is not a reliable source: http://img53.exs.cx/img53/6537/ThemesintheByzantineEmpireunderBasilII.jpg
    • I am not sure whether these are reliable sources

Karanacs (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In addition my comments above and at FAC:

  • I cannot agree too strongly with what Karanacs says about adjectives. This is what WP:NPOV is most intended to prevent.
  • Please read and use the works of Fine, Treadgold, and Lang to be found in the references; also Runciman, of course. Some of them may be available on Google Books. All of the first three have learned from Zlatarski; they have also learned from the eighty years of scholarship since.
    • and (as a much less important point) the only reason to cite sources last name first is to alphabetize them. Since we're not, why? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The article does not appear to have been worked on seriously since the FAC closed. Please don't make more of non-promotion than it deserves; FA moves much faster than it used to, and all that means is that it's not promotable at that instant. It's not a permanent rejection.

I hope the objections will be resolved; I'm perfectly happy to help with English books if necessary when I have more time, and it should then be renominated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I will contact you before I renominate the article (which will happen when I find time). --Gligan (talk) 16:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency in spelling

I hit "random article" and came here. I have started some work on making spelling of names consistent, but I would like to direct a question to the primary writers here: Why 'Samuel' instead of 'Samuil'? 'Aaron' instead of 'Aron'? I note that in almost all of the linked articles (the ones for the other brothers and Cometopuli dynasty, 'Samuil' and 'Aron' spellings are used much more consistently. Ideally, all of these articles should match up with one consistent spelling. Risker (talk) 03:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm. It should be Samuil. There was a discussion on this matter and we did not reach a conclusion (the supports for Samuil were even with one more I think) but still someone redirected the page to Samuel, which I do not approve and do not consider as fair. In the Internet you will find much more matches to Samuil than to Samuel.
I am grateful for your corrections : ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gligan (talk • contribs)
Please go argue with the closing admin, Philip Baird Shearer; we are in fact being consistent with Wikipedia practice elsewhere, and with English usage here. If other articles are inconsistent, we can either leave them alone, or change them; but there's no rush. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)