Talk:Sam Brownback

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sam Brownback article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the United States presidential elections WikiProject. This project provides a central approach to United States presidential elections-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
This page is about an active politician who is running for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy.

Because of this, this article is at risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism.
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Endorsement of John McCain

Something should be put in that he is now endorsing McCain in the GOP primaries71.167.81.190 18:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, following the endorsement, he was made co-chair of the McCain Campaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.91.241.33 (talk) 18:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

It's a B when it's not vandalized.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 17:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

He wasn't raised as a "Satanist" as the present biography states. According to the reference (footnote 10), he was raised as a "Methodist." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.162.0.44 (talk) 14:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Propaganda Wars

A quick look at the edits history for this page shows that people are clearly modifying the content to suit the needs of their particular political ideology. The point of Wikipedia is to provide a complete picture of a subject, and accuracy should be what we all strive for. Putting in additional and unfounded politial attacks simply because of your personal distaste of a person's positions poisons Wikipedia, as does removing factually accurate but potentially negative material or modifying wording to show a person in a more positive or popular light. Wikipedia does not exist for propaganga, and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Msingerman 14:13, 12 December 2005

Sam Brownback is apparently on a list for possible Republican 2008 presidential canidates, at the very least a Republican to watch for promotion. (http://blogs.ljworld.com/kansas_congress/2004/aug/31/president_brownback/, http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1459&dept_id=155743&newsid=13342055&PAG=461&rfi=9) Geoffduman 01:35, 12 November 2004

Is it apropos to add something along the lines of "Sam Brownback is concerned to be a Republican presidential hopeful in 2008"? I'm new to the pedia. Thanks!

  • I would probably word differently, like: "Sam Brownback is considered by some to be a Republican party presidential hopeful in 2008". Unless I'm missing the term "concerned", this sounds less POV. --Toddbloom7 18:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

There were two external links that were removed, both of which pointed to sites disagreeing with Brownback. The sites that remained were positve. I re-added the links that were removed. External links should show both sides.--71.28.89.88 22:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

before his 2002 conversion to Satanism

Corrected back to Catholicism. LwSiX 22:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removed sentence

I removed the references to the Rolling Stone article about Sen. Brownback's religion, because there were several indications of political bias. For instance, it claims he campagned as a moderate, but became an arch-conservative before even taking office. Besides being a purely subjective claim made without support, he campaigned against an incumbent Republican considered by his supporters to be too moderate. Also, it describes a Christian network, The Family, as if it were a clandestine Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, although members include many liberals, including Hillary Clinton. Most significantly, the assertion that Brownback switched from mainline Christianity to evangelicalism. while possibly too subjective to be downright falsifiable when published, is now simply untrue; Brownback became a Catholic years ago.

I removed a sentence saying that Brownback hates pornography. The only definite information about his stance that can be discerned from the provided link is that he is concerned about porn, and that could be assumed when you look at his other views. There's no need to list every policy position he has.--DDerby-(talk) 03:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I removed a sentence that said that Brownback supporting capital punishment and not embryonic stemcell research was a glaring contradiction. While, I do kind of agree with the sentence it seemed too biased to me. --FurciferRNB 18:19, 12 December 2005

[edit] bad wording

and is extremely pro-life

I removed "extremely". Someone is either pro-life or not.--Hbutterfly 05:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes from POV in Views

Concerning stem cell research, I deleted the millions oppose comment because millions support it as well. Not only does Brownback oppose tax-payer funding but the research as a whole based upon his claimed moral principles.

Concerning his anti-abortion stance, I have changed the phrase to say anti-abortion instead of pro-life because the same paragraph mentions his stance on the death penalty. This is the phrase preferred by the Associated Press. I left the link to "Pro-life" as the contributor desired, but I am up for changing that as well. Please discuss here before reverting. Kimathi 05:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Does the phrase '"concerned" about pornography' sound POV to anyone else, or is it just the way I'm reading it? I think it would be better stated as: "He is averse to same-sex marriage, pornography [1],..." --Inaxdaze 10:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Even if it isn't POV, it seems like poor wording. I like your way better so I'll change it, and if anyone is opposed to the change I'm open to discussion. Kimathi 20:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

This "reverted POV" stuff to insert POV is silly. The tax-payer funding comment by AmeriCan is ridiculously POV, and should be defended - thank you to all who have done so. Kimathi 15:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loaded/biased phrases

The goal of all people editing Wikipedia entries should be to maintain neutrality while presenting facts in the most objective light possible. Certain phrases are being regularly added and removed from this entry, such as that involves the cloning and destruction of human embryos, research that millions of American tax payers believe is morally wrong from the views section. Yes, millions of Americans *do* view stem-cell research as morally wrong, but what relevance does that have to do with an entry about a single man? Absolutely none. What does it have to do with attempting to push forward a certain political agenda? A whole lot. If you look at the user profiles of some of the people editing to include these phrases, you quickly see a pattern forming.

Likewise, if you wish to include something like Because of the latter belief, he condemned the Supreme Court's decision in Lawrence v. Texas and believes that sodomy laws are "legitimate tools" and favors prison sentences for homosexuals, please reference or otherwise provide source materials. Otherwise, you are just pushing through that much more propaganda.

Neutrality, objectivity, factuality. Come on, people. 71.252.108.85 12:33, 8 April 2006

[edit] Controversy

I hve questions about this text, included in the "Controversy" section:

  • Brownback actually started his political career while attending Kansas State University, where he served as student body president. He secured election by promising a parking garage to the student body. Kansas State does not have a parking garage to this day, and the parking situation continues to be a problem.

First off, "He secured election by promising..." is making an unverifiable assumption. He may have made the promise but it is impossible to know if that is what won the election. Second, a quick check of Google indicates that there are two parking garages on campus. Lastly, where is the controversy over this supposedly-broken campaign promise? Is there an uproar in the local newspapers? -Will Beback 23:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC) I have lived in Manhattan, KS for the last eight years and have attended and graduated from Kansas State University. I can tell you without a doubt that there are zero parking garages on campus and zero in the vicinity of campus. Senator Brownback's student body president campaign promise of a parking garage has been repeated by virtually every individual campaigning since.Ksoze03 16:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Views and Controversy

Disclosure: Based on the recent controversy with House press secretaries taking advantage of the Wikipedia community, I want to make sure everyone understands up front that I work for Senator Brownback. And while I’d very much like to change much about this article, I have limited my suggestions and edits to what can be sourced externally.

(Thank you to whoever removed my edits within seconds before I had a chance to post my reasons. I appreciate your objectivity.)

Also, I am endeavoring in every way to be respectful to the rules of the site and do things the right way. If I am not, apologies and please understand any mistakes are not intentional.

Views:

Intelligent Design: Brownback does not “favor” intelligent design. The most he has said (1) is that he is open to more than one theory being taught in schools, and a preference for facts being separated from theory. It would be accurate to say that Brownback “favors multiple theories being taught in schools.” I have removed to avoid ambiguity in the list of issues in a serious run-on sentence.

Controversy:

Brownback did not accept $42,000 from Jack Abramoff. (2) $42,000 was contributed to Brownback’s political action committee from three Native American tribes, which were Abramoff clients. (3) Brownback donated these funds to Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence, Kansas.

I removed the quote from Chief Bearskin as it’s quite biased. (4) (5). Chief Bearskin, from Oklahoma, has been trying to build a casino on top of a tribal burial ground in Kansas for years, against the wishes of the Kansas Wyondot tribe. This dispute between the Wyondot’s of Kansas and the Wyandotte’s of Oklahoma is his motivation for criticizing Brownback. If restored, please include both sides.

Rolling Stone writer Jeff Sharlet did not accuse the Senator of using the term 'fruits' to demean homosexuals. He made it clear in his (6) blog that the joke was his and that Brownback’s Biblical reference was clearly understood in context and was not referring to sexual orientation.

Articles below truncated to relevant sections.

(1) Copyright 2005 Associated Press December 23, 2005, Friday, BC cycle LOAD-DATE: December 24, 2005 SECTION: State and Regional LENGTH: 621 words HEADLINE: Summary of Brownback's comments on various issues DATELINE: TOPEKA, Kan. BODY: A summary of Sen. Sam Brownback's comments Friday on a variety of issues:

Intelligent Design

Brownback declined to say how he feels about a federal judge's ruling in Pennsylvania that said intelligent design couldn't be required by the Dover school district.

"You're obviously seeing the issue of the teaching on evolution coming in and being discussed in many places in the United States, and here was a place it was discussed," he said. "Facts should be taught as facts and theory should be taught as theory. I think that's the way to go."

(2) Copyright 2005 Associated Press December 21, 2005, Wednesday, BC cycle LOAD-DATE: December 22, 2005 SECTION: State and Regional LENGTH: 949 words HEADLINE: Fear on Capitol Hill: Will Republican lobbyist become prosecution witness? BYLINE: By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer DATELINE: WASHINGTON BODY:

Brownback's now-defunct Restore America Political Action Committee received $42,000 from four Indian tribes represented by Abramoff in 2002, according to Federal Election Commission records, and now he is giving it away.

(3) http://www.tray.com/ April 11, 2006

(4) http://www.bleedingkansas.org/Wyandotte_County.html

(5) http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=2228

(6) The truth is that Brownback did not mean to make a joke, nor did he mean to use “fruits” as a slur. I didn’t think he did, nor did I mean to imply that. But I was laughing at the senator. Just once, in a 7,100 word, rather earnest story. The moment was classic “Beavis and Butthead: “Dude. Did he just say fruits?” http://www.therevealer.org/archives/timely_002408.php

156.33.31.207 20:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)156.33.31.207

Thank you for posting your reasons for editing this page, and also your disclosure of the fact that you work for the Senator. However, sentences like this

(Thank you to whoever removed my edits within seconds before I had a chance to post my reasons. I appreciate your objectivity.)

Do not exactly engender goodwill towards you. Attacks on other people's objectivity carry far less weight on Wiki than they do on cable news channels. As for your edits, let's discuss these one at a time.

  • No attack intended. Just hoping for sourced objectivity.

Senator Brownback wants evolution to be taught as a "theory", not as fact, something which he has declined to expound on, and wants intelligent design - something that is more a political tool than a theory - to be taught alongside it. If you'd like, the article can be corrected to reflect your employer's belief that evolution does not exist.

  • Removing this again unless someone can cite Brownback as favoring intelligent design being taught or that evolution doesn't exist. Neither is the case.

Your edit to Sen. Brownback's relations with Jack Abromoff do leave the fact that he did accept money that was tainted by Abromoff, but remove the very heart of the issue - namely, the hurt and distrust created by taking the money. Feel free to reinsert the quote about the Senator donating the money to an Indian university; however, please provide a source that can be cited.

  • Brownback did not personally accept money from Jack Abramoff, the two met only once in passing long before the contributions. The contributions came directly from his Native American clients to the senator’s political action committee. I am not attempting to white wash the abuses of Abramoff or that Brownback was connected to these funds, but as written, this gives an impression that is incorrect. Including the PAC and the university donation was in hopes to add more information. If I goof up citing it in the article, here is the FEC report that includes the contribution, see page 41. [1]
  • Wikipedia’s last notation under the Wyandot article makes it clear that the Wyondot’s of Kansas and the Wyondotte’s of Oklahoma are at odds over a burial ground in Kansas. Senator Brownback supports the Kansas tribe, who are his constituents. It is incomplete to express the Oklahoma chief’s views without making it clear he is politically motivated in hopes to build a casino in a state other than where his tribe resides against the wishes of the tribe in the area. The chief says himself, cited above, that he has threatened to build a casino on the cemetery if the State of Kansas doesn’t put land the tribe bought in trust for use as a casino. Chief Bearskin is not so much hurt as he is taking a shot when it suits his aims of rolling bones on sacred bones. If there is hope to convey hurt, please cite an objective source. Reverted.

The issue with the Rolling Stones article was that many gays found the Senator's joke at their expense demeaning.

  • The author of the article himself said Brownback wasn’t making a joke. The author’s comments on this subject are sourced above and have long been externally linked on this page. Brownback issued a statement, widely reported, that he meant no offense whatsoever. Reverted.

[edit] Intelligent Design

There appear to have been a number of occasions in which Brownback spoke in favor of teaching ID, including support for Santorum's Sense of the Senate motion[2], and a special meeting in the Capitol Building.[3] -Will Beback 23:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Pornography Claim

Given that the claim that Brownback is anti-porn was disputed earlier in this talk page, and that the claim is based on a now-broken link, perhaps should that claim be removed from the article? StaticElectric 01:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious interpretation of Brownback's use of the word 'holocaust'

Quoting the given source: "And he says the youngest voters, ages 18 to 25, are the most pro-life cohort. They were born, he says, when abortion rates were highest, so "many of them feel they're the survivors of a holocaust: one in four of their compatriots are not here.'"

There's quite a difference of phrasing, claiming abortion equals The Holocaust in monstrosity and likening it to a holocaust (i.e. mass killing, massacre). The former is, as it stands in the article, a lengthening and quite unrestrained elucidation, if you will, of what Brownback actually said. Shoplifter 21:36, 19 May 2006

No answer and thusly I've NPOV'ed the sentence. Shoplifter 21:36, 19 May 2006

[edit] Controversy

Apparently, some users (mainly Getaway (aka BballJones)) question the accuracy of some facts presented and substantiated under the controversy's section. It is important to remember that while these users may not wish to acknowledge such information as relevant, they are pertinent to Sen. Brownback's biography. It is highly doubtful that both CNN and The New York Sun would have reported such information if it was false. 208.107.62.159 03:55, 31 July 2006 User talk:208.107.62.159

The stem cell topic has already been covered in an earlier section of the Brownback article. No need to refer to it twice. Also, it was written in a format which expressed the opinion of the Wikipedian, therefore, non-NPOV. --Getaway 13:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Once again, there is no controversy. Treating Brownback work on the floor as if there is a controversy violates two Wikipedia policies: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. There has NOT been one citation given that states that there is a controversy on the stem cell bill. That is the opinion of a few Wikipedians only. --Getaway 00:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
If one needs verification that the current and, indeed, past stem cell bills have been considered controversial by the public one may reference [4] and the links provided within.

As the lack of controversy seems to be the only limitation user Getaway has cited to move the aforementioned information I have moved it back under controversies with citations proving that the stem cell bill is indeed controversial. ~Checkmate15

You made an inappropriate edit and I fixed it. Cheers. --Getaway 02:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei

It's unbelievable that there's no reference to Brownback's membership in Opus Dei in this article. Thomas Frank's book "What's the Matter With Kansas" provides ample evidence of this fact. I've added a sentence about it that I hope is neutral in language. StudierMalMarburg 16:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

An independant confirmation of this membership claim should be provided, otherwise Frank's claim might be simple an attempt slander, especially as his book seems to be quite controversial. Don't forgetWikipedia:Biographies of living_persons#Critics. But, even more important, is there any statement (concerning membership) by Brownback himself available? --Túrelio 12:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This reference in the article was pointed out in an article in the Wichita Eagle (Partisanship skulks into Wikipedia) today. I added in that it was disputed by his staff and a link to the newspaper. Also, I clarified info on Bush bringing in the three children to the While House. If there are some citations that they also appeared with Brownback, that could be added, but I couldn't find anything that said that. BCorr|Брайен 12:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Brian! Well, I've clarified even more to the point of well making it nearly unreadable. So here's the chronology:
  • Wikipedia for the longest time (middle July) has "Brownback brought three small children to the senate floor" [5]
  • Gets corrected to Senate but basically stays
  • Wichita Eagle piece comes out [6], where staffer "knows his boss never brought children onto the Senate floor during last month's stem cell debate" [7].
  • Brian Corr changes to White House instead Senate and includes AP reference. [8]
  • The article doesn't specifically say White House though it is very likely so. But I've instead quoted directly from the article which had:
Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., appeared with three children adopted from in vitro fertilization clinics in an effort to humanize the argument that frozen embryos could have a future other than being subjects of stem cell research.
  • I've revised and left in the press secretary comments in parens, but it's really messy now since it's not clear if the press secretary is disputing the location (Senate floor vs. White House vs. somewhere else) or if he is disputing that Brownback "brought" any children anywhere or if he questions the existence of these children altogther.
-- Fuzheado | Talk 16:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Andrew -- I appreciate your cleaning up the mess. It seems to be changing moment to moment.... Peace, BCorr|Брайен 16:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Why would it be slander to say that Brownback is a member of Opus Dei? I have no evidence one way or another, nor any knowledge or opinion about how reliable What's the Matter with Kansas may be, but simply saying that someone is a member of the organization -- as long as one doesn't simultaneously repeat slanders about Opus Dei itself -- would not necessarily be slander even if it were false. --Jim Henry 15:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, this seems way off topic, but let me point out to you the elements of slander and libel. Your statement, "would not necessarily be slander even if it were false" is a correct statment, but not the for the reasons that you believe it to be. It would not be slander because this is Wikipedia and everything is written down, not spoken, so a basic element of slander is not present. But it could be libel. The question becomes has something been (1) written in Wikipedia that (2) is harmful to the reputation and (3) broadcast to a large audience. So, yes, something could be libel on Wikipedia if a reasonable jury were to decide that, for example, being a member of Opus Dei is such a horrible organization that even being identified as a member can hurt one's reputation. At any rate, until someone other than Franks provides evidence that Brownback is a member then I don't think we should include it. It is just Frank's opinion, he does not provide any proof. I know of people that have written down that Hillary Clinton is a lesbian, does that mean that Wikipedia should repeat that?? I don't think so.--Getaway 16:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It is not slander. Opus Dei is a legitimate Catholic sect (no matter what The DaVinci Code says), even if they are extremely conservative. If Brownback was indeed Baptized by an Opus Dei priest, putting that into this article is perfectly legitimate, as long as it is cited. Even if Brownback is not currently a member and is embarassed by the affiliation, it is fair to put the information in the article. I will check later to see if I can find citations for this claim and if I do I will put it into the article. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a forum for political candidates or their devotees to make themselves look good. It's a "warts and all" kind of site. There is one user who continually goes through this article and takes out anything that might be remotely embarassing to the subject. That is not NPOV and should not be tolerated.nut-meg 22:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, of course it is not "slander" because for it to be slander then it would have to be spoken. The real question is whether it is "libel". And of course it is not libel because being a member of Opus Dei is not harmful to the reputation. I'm glad that you found a source on his Baptism. However, until a reliable source emerges (and Franks is not one) we can't state that Brownback is a member of Opus Dei.--Getaway 14:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not right to put in a reference to Opus Dei just because people widely believe it. It should be a known fact that can be verified by official sources or admittance. Since there is not proof of this, and the book "What is wrong with Kansas" is so off base and untrue (try reading it) then it cannot be taken seriously. Mere coincidence does not constitute truth!--livin4dios 00:10 09 January 2007

I put into the article that he was baptized in an Opus Dei chapel, but that he is not a member. If both Brownback AND Opus Dei deny he is a member, none of us can truthfully say that he is.nut-meg 03:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Unless Brownback is lying, he is not a member of Opus Dei. He did, however, convert to Catholicism through a very prominent Opus Dei priest, Fr. John McCloskey, at an Opus Dei chapel on K Street. His religious views, on record, are generally sympathetic to those of Opus Dei, but Opus Dei representatives at the K Street Chapel deny that Brownback is a member. I'm making these statements based on my interviews with Brownback and Opus Dei representatives. -- Jeff Sharlet
  • I added a {{cn}} to the "he is not a member of Opus Dei" statement. If you can, please provide a citation that Opus Dei or Brownback confirm or deny his membership. Jerimee 19:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dead Citation

Hi, as some of you seem to be close to or familiar with Sen. Brownback, could you find another reference for the claim He opposes same-sex marriage, and pornography. (ref. 1; section Views), as the current one (http://www.family.org/cforum/fnif/news/a0038523.cfm) is dead already for quite some time. --Túrelio 18:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laurie Kellmen's Associated Press Article on Stem Cell bill

If you read the article, she is not clear where Brownback supposedly "appeared." It seems like she is trying to imply that it is on the floor of the Senate because she vaguely mentions the Senate earlier in the article. But her writing is just weak. I don't know if she is being deliberately obtuse or she just can't write, but there are other glaring problems with her writing. In our article we quote her as saying, "Brownback appeared with three children adopted from in vitro fertilization clinics(.)" I ask, once again, "appeared" where? But also, she states in this quote the three children were "adopted from in vitro fertilization clinics(.)" I would like to know where there exists an in vitro fertilization clinic that also handles adoptions. The wording is sloppy. She is obviously attempting, in her clumsy way, to say, "with three children who were conceived from embryoes adopted from in vitro fertilization clinics(.)" I don't think we should use her quote. It is wrong in two very important ways and it leads to confusion. I think that Wikipedians are getting charged with misusing Wikipedia to write negative items about Brownback (and, yes, some of the earlier edits were attempts to blast Brownback), but I think a lot of this misinformation is an outgrowth of reading sloppy writing from Laurie Kellman, an Associated Press reporter. We should just strike her comments unless we can find a clearly written article on what Brownback did to promote the Stem Cell bill.--Getaway 14:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is not really your job to determine the validity of an already vetted article. All a responsible user of wikipedia should do when using such an article is to report the piece using the reasonable person standard. Yes, there may be different takes on what specific words or phrases mean, however, the general intention of the article is clear. The rewording of the stem cell section seems to take certain liberties with the article in question. The current wording suggests that “snowflake babies” wouldn’t exist if stem cell research was sponsored; this characterization is not supported by the article nor is it supported by the bill in question. Instead it would be more accurate to say that such snowflake babies wouldn’t be affected by stem cell research as only those embryos already destined for destruction would be used for research. This is supported in the article itself, “that would otherwise be discarded.” It cannot be any clearer. Just because you do not like what is said in the article you go after the author and characterize their writing as intelligible. Surely, as a community we should strive for accuracy rather than manipulation of potential readers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.107.62.159 (talk • contribs) 05:36, 25. Aug 2006~Checkmate15
Thank you for your rant. I did not hear any specifics in your rant, just a rant. I do not believe that Kellman did a good job explaining where Brownback was specifically when he was supposedly with these three children. Also, she is just flat out wrong to suggest that the children were adopted from an in vitro fertilization clinic. Now, that may not be important to you, but yes as editors of Wikipedia we are supposed to verify whether inforamtion meets bare minimum criteria to be included in the encyclopedia. Please review the rules of Wikipedia again for your education. See Wikipedia:Verifiability. Thank you and have a good day.--Getaway 12:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Snowflake Children

The term "Snowflake" children is a term used exclusively by the religious right. It is by no means a universally accepted term or concept, yet it is being presented in this article as if it were. Any attempts at clarification are immediately erased by a clearly partisan advocate who claims to be erasing POV, when in reality by eliminating any references to who does and does not advocate this belief, the erasures represent sharply partisan POV. StudierMalMarburg 20:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

POV pushing will not be allowed. Sorry. There a comment added on the end which was clearly not NPOV. At the end the presentation stated: "News footage of the event didn't reveal any minority families present." This sentence is clearly not NPOV. Who is looking at the "news footage." A wikipedian? If yes, then it is original research." Who is the voice of this comment? A Wikipedian. Not acceptable. Put it in if you want to BUT you must present it for what it is: a satire by a fake news organization. It was presented as a legitimate argument from a legitimate source. Do you have a legitimite source making these arguments other than a blog like Kos?? Or a fake news organization like the Daily Show??? If this was a real debate then we would be able to pull out comments from the Democratic politicians, Republican politician, Planned Parenthood, Right-to-Life, but these arguments aren't there. All you have is a parody, which was presented as hard news, and one opinion from a Daily KOS nutjob. Not much to go on. Wikipedia does not allow the use of blogs because then you or I could just blog some horse hockey and then cite this horse hockey as legitimate horse hockey. Seriously, all you have is a some crazed Daily KOS blogger and a John Stewart parody, that really isn't much is it?? How do I know that the guy who keeps pushing this POV is not the nutjob that is blogging for Daily KOS??? I don't. I just going to assume that these folks are one and the same, unless someone can prove to me otherwise. A blogger's opinion is not going in this article or the Sam Brownback article either.--Getaway 20:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
There was no reference at all to Daily Kos. You have a strange way of defending yourself. All this is about is a simple clarification that the terminology "snowflake children" is used exclusively by the religious right. No one else at all uses or accepts that term. Thus, by erasing any and all references to the fact that this is a term used by the religious right to push forward a political agenda, you are advancing a partisan POV. StudierMalMarburg 21:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
You have not responded to what I wrote. Do you have a source to back up your OPINION? What is that source? Where do I find that source? I don't really care about your OPINION. I care about the opinions of reliable sources. So, once again, where is the source to back up your opinion and is that source a reputable one? So far all that you have offered is Daily Kos and a parody from John Stewart's Daily Show. Not much to work with there. So, once again, I encourage you to provide a reliable source to back up your OPINION, if not then your personal opinion's will stay out of the article.--Getaway 21:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the burden to provide support for your POV edit falls on your shoulders, not mine. Just attacking my arguments without provide solid, concrete citations for your OPINION will not work to get your edit through the Wikipedia rules.--Getaway 22:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not me who is forcing an opinion on everyone else. It is you, my friend. I'm not the one erasing entries. It is you. I'm not the one pushing forward a biased opinion as universal truth, it is you. Therefore, if you want to put forward the idea of "snowflake children" as a fact accepted by any group beyond the Christian Right, then the burden of proof is yours, not mine. StudierMalMarburg 12:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
That argument is so yesterday. Don't you have something better to do?--Getaway 15:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's civility policies are not optional, so please do not make personal attacks on other editors. --Kuzaar-T-C- 20:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NOV tag

I removed the NPOV tag because there was no dicusssion going on concerning the article. Also, one editor makes the argument that the NPOV tag should stay as long as he/she wants it to stay. That isn't how it works.--Getaway 20:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There's no discussion because all you want to do is shout others down. StudierMalMarburg 13:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV Check

This article needs to be checked for its neutrality by a senior Wikipedia administrator. StudierMalMarburg 13:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you list some of the issues that you think are under dispute? -- Fuzheado | Talk 20:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Primarily the insistence of some editors to assert that Brownback's support of "Snowflake Children" is a universally accepted tenant. The term "snowflake children" itself is a highly charged term used by a very specific group of people: i.e., the Christian Right. As long as one editor continues to delete all references to who does and does not accept this term, then the article is not neutral. StudierMalMarburg 14:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The term is used by hundreds and hundreds of people. There is a Wikipedian article on the term. The rules of Wikipedia does not allow one Wikipedian to decide that the term must removed from this article just because that Wikipedian does not agree with the term and does not want to see the term in the article. That is non NPOV. That is called jamming one's point of view on the article.--Getaway 15:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with the term. It's a matter of being honest about the fact that only the Christian Right uses this term. In your own words, deleting references to this fact is non NPOV and "is called jamming one's point of view on the article." StudierMalMarburg 16:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I have tagged the above-discussed assertion's source as dubious for the reasons provided by editor StudierMalMarburg. Additionally, a reliable source for the assertion must be found if the sweeping statement it implies is to be asserted by the article. Getaway has contacted me on my talk page and informed me that he thought this was a "drive-by tagging", when in reality I was merely doing what SMM would have done, had he been a little more experienced with the source template tags Wikipedia provides. --Kuzaar-T-C-
Unfortunately, you are not supposed to comment on me personally, but the article itself. You comments about me are not welcome or acceptable. Please refrain from personal attacks and stick to the article. Now, as to the article. Neither you or Marburg has given a reason to censor valid, sourced information from the Wikipedia article. Please provide your reasons and don't comment on me and engage in personal attacks. Please review the appropriate policy that you have blantantly violated: Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Kuzaar this is you first warning.--Getaway 01:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Note that in no way have I created a personal attack in the above statement, merely called attention to the fact that it was your alert on my talk page that brought me here. With regards to the civility policy, please be aware that it is considered improper to warn policy to a user outside of their talk page. I am not going to warn you, but keep this in mind in the future. In particular, you have warned me for creating a "drive by tagging" on my talk page when I, as I said above, was merely acting on Marburg's behalf to put into the article the standard dispute tags as pertains to Wikipedia policy. Unfounded accusations of attacks, as you said, are neither welcome nor acceptable under the civility guidelines; again, please refrain from this in the future. --Kuzaar-T-C- 04:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Whoops! You did exactly what you have asked me not to do: warn me on this talk page. You have one set of standards for you and another for me. Now, let's talk about the article, shall we?? You have not focused your attention on the actual article. I have not heard from you why you believe that the article should be censored by you and Marburg. There are organizations that refer to these children as "snowflake children." Now, you and Marburg might not like that fact, but it is true and it will be in this article and in the "snowflake children" article. Don't engage in personal attacks. Please review the policy. --Getaway 13:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not attempting to engage in censorship, I am attempting to make a veiled attempt at obfuscating the prevalence of a term adhere to NPOV by attributing it to a reliable source, which you have done nothing to assuage. Nor have I engaged in personal attacks- you misread my earlier comment, as evidenced by your comment on my talk page. When I was talking about an inexperienced editor, I was referring to how I acted on Marburg's behalf to flag a questionable assertion appropriately to aid discussion on the talk page. I was not calling you an inexperienced editor, as you seem to have implied on your comment at my talk page. Please be careful not to construe one comment for something unintended. Lastly, it might be important for you yourself to review the NPOV policy and realize that in order to maintain NPOV in the article, controversial statements MUST be attributed to a reliable source so as not to attempt to assert POV in the article. --Kuzaar-T-C- 14:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I have provided a link to a source. The organization that visited the White House. Marburg came along and changed the sentence to read that it is a term of, in Marburg's words (and opinion), the "Christian Right." It is NOT up to Marburg to decide if only the so-called "Chritian Right" use this term. I, for example, am NOT in any way a member of the so-called "Christian Right" but I use the term. Now, I'm not going to get into an edit war with Marburg. Now, I appreciate your input. That is why that I called it a drive-by. You are very familiar with the Wikipedia rules and I did not, and don't accept, the notion that you can just go around and tag things without attempting to work out the situation. You know that Marburg just can't to unilaterally decide to state that the term is MERELY a term of art created by and for the so-called "Christian Right." That is the way that Marburg wrote it, not me. What Marburg is attempting to do is impose his OPINION on the article. He is stating clearly with this edit that only "Christians" are concerning the about the use of these embryos, which is NOT true. Also, he is further limiting the number universe of concerned people, not only to just "Christians" but only so-called members of the "Christian Right." This is a blantant violation of the pricipals of NPOV. Now, you are assisting Marburg because you are simply coming in and slapping on the tag and let taking your hands off attitude, giving the impression that Marburg edit is appropriate that I, Getaway, have the burden of proof of why Marburg's edit is not NPOV. That is NOT the way that this is going to work. I choose the words, "some people" because I find that to be neutral terminology. If Marburg does not like that particular phrasing then he needs to come up with an alternative and the term "Christian Right" is NOT acceptable for the reasons that I have just given. He needs to provide an alternative and you need to assist because you have interjected yourself into this discussion and you have only worked to give Marburg the impression that he does a good job explaining himself. Where is his explanation??? Please show me. I would like to read it. I'm sticking with "some people" until a neutral alternative presents itself. I'm not going to keep providing new ones and Marburg just sits back and says that not acceptable show me something else. That is bogus. The problem is you. You are assisting him in this strategy of merely just saying no, and not engaging a discussion or providing alternatives (and "Chrisitan Right" is not acceptable, for the reasons that I have already given).--Getaway 12:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV Check, Part II

I removed the POV Check template because Marburg was improperly using the POV Check template to gain leverage in a dispute with me and Kuzaar did not remove the improper POV Check template. Marburg is attempting to impose his opinion on the article and that violates NPOV. The Wikipedia rules are very, very clear on the proper use of that template and it is clear that Marburg is attempting to bend the rules to simply jam his opinion on the article. The rules state: The POV check template is not for disputes. It is intended for:

  • Articles which you have edited to be neutral, but may have overlooked something
  • Articles which you suspect are not neutral, but are unsure how to proceed

For situations where you or other editors disagree on NPOV status, or need to reach consensus on neutrality, instead use the neutrality dispute template, {{POV}}, and explain the reasons on the talk page. The POV Check template has been removed because Marburg was improperly using it to gain leverage in a dispute. It is gone never to return. Now, the regular POV template will be removed if Marburg and Kuzaar refuse to participate in a real discussion of the wording.--Getaway 12:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, Getaway. I think I've come up with a neutrally-worded phrasing for the assertion. Please let me know if the new version comes off as NPOV to you. --Kuzaar-T-C- 12:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Just for clarification purposes, I have not tried to impose my POV on anyone, nor have I used the POV tag to try to gain leverage against anyone else. All I ever asked for was clarification of a very dubious term. All anyone has to do is look at the record of additions and deletions to see that it was not me trying to impose anything on anyone. If simply asking for clarification is considered imposing one's non-NPOV here at Wikipedia, then so be it. StudierMalMarburg 14:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
You even stated that you put the POV Check tag on the document and you intended to keep it there until you, and only you, decided that it was to be removed. That is not the way that it works. It is based upon concensus, not your view of the world.--Getaway 14:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There you go again, imposing your interpretation of an event on others. At no time did I ever make the statement you claim. Anyone can go check the record of additions and deletions to verify the truth of it. What I said was that YOU could not make a unilateral decision to remove it until the dispute was resolved. It is indeed based upon consensus, maybe you should try it sometime. StudierMalMarburg 15:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Of course, you did. It is in the edit history. I will quote it directly: (cur) (last) 20:09, 3 September 2006 StudierMalMarburg (Talk | contribs) m (POV tag restored. So long as one editor is policing this article to his own POV, the tag must remain.) Those are your words that you deny you stated. Let's end this discussion. If you put in the article again your POV by stating that only members of "Christian Right" use this term then I will remove it, over and over again. Got, it?--Getaway 17:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I can only express my concern at the continuing of this dispute. In my opinion, the use of the term "snowflake children" is, in one way or another, an attempt to use a politically loaded term, and it may well be worth saying that it is often used as such. I have attempted to put this in NPOV terms by attributing the term to the source that said it- a fairly obviously far-right political website, but if the article in any way advocates its use, that is a violation of neutral POV and must be removed, keeping in mind that Wikipedia's role is to portray disputes, not re-enact or advocate them. --Kuzaar-T-C- 13:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's go over this one more time. If you believe that there is something in the article that advocates, then point it out and we will discuss it. But you are talking in generalities. You have not given one specific example of that. We have attributed it to the source that stated it. Also, we will go over the fallacies of the desciption of the term, when Marburg, with your assistance, attempted to impose the viewpoint on the article that the term, "snowflake children" is only used by the so-called, using Marburg's term, "Christian Right." This incorrect commentary and opinion of Marburg is wrong is so many ways, but let me just focus on two glaring examples. In the opinion of Marburg, who is a Wikipedian, not a recognized expert in the area, that the term is only used by (1) "Christians" and (2) people with a right-wing political philosophy. That is commentary by a Wikipedian and as such it violates the rules of Wikipedia. How? Well, Marburg's commentary states that only Christians use the term and that eliminates all orthodox Jews who use the term and Marburg's commentary states that only people of right-wing perspective use the term and that eliminates all people with a leftward tilt in their politics, such as Catholic priests. It is commentary and opinion of a Wikipedian and Marburg attempted to jam it into the article. Now, if you have a specific suggestion then you should point it out instead of general complaints. Otherwise, you are merely using the talk page for your political commentary about the term. What is the specific problem with the way the article currently stands???--Getaway 13:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
There, I've added a sourced sentence in the middle of the controversial paragraph that both gives the term per Getaway and explains its origins, per Marburg, and is sourced, per WP:RS. I hope everyone can settle on this, since it fulfills all the criteria and objections brought up so far. Either way, all I'm trying to do here is find a consensus version that both parties will find acceptable, which seems very difficult in politically charged debates. --Kuzaar-T-C- 13:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
No, that does not work. Use of a commentary by Margaret Carlson to describe the term snowflake children is inherently POV. Margaret Carlson's article is a political commenatary and Wikipedia specifically points out that Wikipedia should not use of the so-called facts in a political commenatary as a the source for facts. Once again, the attempts to characterize the word as a word of the so-called right-wing and it eliminates the Catholic priests from the universe of people that use the term, an attempt to minimize and limit the influence of the term. You are quoting a partisan, left-wing person (she is NOT just a reporter, but a left-wing commentator) making negative comments on the term as your source for the CLAIM that only "right-wing" people use the term. That is inherently bias. It like I quoted Pat Buchanan to give a non-biased evaluation of Planned Parenthood!!!! No. It does not work.--Getaway 14:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The key difference in the two ideas (between this and the example you gave) is that Pat Buchanan would be a reliable source for a view opposing Planned Parenthood. In fact, I would be shocked if he weren't already quoted in the Criticism section of the Planned Parenthood page. According to WP:NPOV and WP:RS, political commentaries are not only useful in politically oriented pages, but vital for perspective, and are perfectly acceptable as long as they are characterized and attributed and the statement is not borne by the narrative voice of the article, and if it is from a Reliable, reviewed and professionally edited source. I would also like to remind you that it was originally you who added[9] the reference to Bloomberg News, which is a reliable and respected reporting organization. I find nothing objectionable in the article's current revision. --Kuzaar-T-C- 14:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
No. I did not add Carlson. It was neither I or Marburg, but another Wikipeidan. However, at the top of Carlson's work it specifically states: "who was a columnist and deputy Washington bureau chief for Time magazine, is a columnist for Bloomberg News. The opinions expressed are her own." There is a disclaimer because it is commentary.--Getaway 14:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
As I've said above, according to the NPOV and RS guidelines, commentary articles like this one are acceptable for citation as long as they are properly sourced and attributed to their writer. --Kuzaar-T-C- 14:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
(This comment originally was at the talk page of snowflake children): But it does work for a characterization of the source to be given, appropriately attributed, to a writer doing an opinion piece for a mainstream reporting organization such as Bloomberg. As I've said on the debate on the Sam Brownback talk page, political commentary sources are not only acceptable but necessary for explaining the debate over a political subject. For example, a quote criticizing Planned Parenthood would be appropriate in the "criticism" section of that article, as long as it was attributed to a correct, reliable source. --Kuzaar-T-C- 14:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
You miss the point. I do not object to using Carlson's article as an expression of point of view critical of the term snowflake children. I have never questioned that use of her article. What I question is the use of her article as evidence that ONLY right-wing people use the term. That is misinformation. She is the probably the most respectable source in the article critical of the term, but that does not make her an expert on whether the term is ONLY used by the so-called right-wing. That is inherently biased. It goes again common sense for a Wikipedia article to state that only the right-wing uses the term when we know that there are Catholic groups that use the term and those Catholic groups have both left-wing and right-wing people in them. Why is there this need to make the biased statement that ONLY right-wing people use the term? It is not based in reality and it is biased and it violates the policy of NPOV. I have been working on this article a long time. I got involved when I was reading it and originally this particular event was put in the so-called "Controversy" section of the article. And it was full of inacuracies. What is it that you want to express? If you want to express that the term is only used by the right-wing then I would have to disagree, but common sense dictates that not every single person that uses the term is a so-called "right-winger."--Getaway 15:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I have not used "right-winger" as a pejorative term, nor do I intend for it to be used in any such manner in the article. I think another way to include criticism as portrayed by the article would be to say that the author characterized it as "generally being used as a 'rallying...'", etc. I certainly have no objections to saying that people outside of what has heretofore been demonstrated use the term, but I haven't seen any evidence that this is the case. Again, if you can find an attributable source that characterizes its use in liberal politics, I would have no objections about including that either. All I'm trying to get across here is that it's dangerous to bring up politically loaded terms in an article without sourcing comments carefully and regarding it objectively. --Kuzaar-T-C- 15:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Getaway, I just reverted a change you made to the article. You do a lot of work rooting out Wikipedian commentary, so please understand that it's not appropriate for Wikipedians to put their own commentary into articles, the policies of which I'm sure you are familiar with. If you want to find a source and show reasons that people advocate the use of the term, that's fine, but don't try to discredit people by suggesting their commentary is unreliable when it came from a reliable source. --Kuzaar-T-C- 15:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction on the article. I was trying to accurately describe her background, and was working from a cursory glance at Google results for her name. --Kuzaar-T-C- 15:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Kuzaar, your repeated warnings are getting tiresome. I was not engaging in POV pushing. Don't make that comment again. My edit was an appropriate edit. I did not state anything that is not true. She is "left-wing". I find your warning to be reaching because you just defending using Carlson's word "Right" but you would not allow me to use the word "left". That is a double standard. Now, you stated that she was a reporter for Newsweek. She never worked for Newsweek. I was wrong. I confused her with that other left-wing hack, Eleanor Cliff. Also, she no longer works for Time. She was fired. She works for Bloomberg, which is obviously a large step down in her career. Now, I am going to put in the article that she is leftward in her political viewpoint because she IS leftward and she is expressing a left opinion and you and Marburg have insisted that the snowflake children term be described as a term of the "Right." Fair is fair. And don't even warn me again. If you remove it then you are engaging in POV pushing.--Getaway 15:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
It is POV to say "X is left wing". It is not POV to say "According to Y, X is left wing", because that's sourcing a possibly biased statement, which must be attributed to maintain NPOV. Please understand the critical distinction between the two. In the name of being civility, though, and because the current revision is a fair enough approximation of NPOV, I'm not going to remove the description from the current revision. It's still technically asserting POV, but not in a disruptive or inflammatory way. --Kuzaar-T-C- 13:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
No. That is not true. There are examples all over Wikipedia of where liberals like to describe the point of view of whatever conservative speaker. But the liberals do not like it when a conservative describes the point of view of a liberal as a liberal. You are dead wrong. You are changing it because I am right. If you thought in any way that you could change it and I would not howl then you would.--Getaway 14:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
No, I am not changing it because WP:CIVIL is not an optional policy. I am opposed to so easily classifying any person as a right-wing or left-wing person, because it is politically divisive, unhelpful, and creates a climate of opposition instead of one of cooperation. If you feel strongly about it then go take issue with people being labelled in any way. For whatever reason you seem to insist on baiting me out whenever I bring up an issue I find with this article, and that is unhelpful to the creative environment at the Wikipedia project. I am not interested in politics, only in making sure that Wikipedia is not used as a tool to advance agendas, as a soapbox, or ANYTHING other than an encyclopedia. Editors that have a vested interest in some of these things often take this interest as a personal attack on them, which couldn't be farther from the truth. To me the encyclopedia comes first, and I will not stand down if other editors try to bring foreign interests, loaded words, and advocacy into it. --Kuzaar-T-C- 15:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, the key point of what I said above is: If you feel that the encyclopedia labels opinionists conservative or unfairly tries to discount their opinion, either do what I do and root out the interests trying to assert themselves or show me where it's happening. I've done some work trying to mediate disputes at Protest Warrior (a politically conservative group) where an editor with outside interests has come in and tried to post information to make the subject look extremist, etc. I won't stand for either side of the political spectrum coming in and trying to characterize anything as what it is not. --Kuzaar-T-C- 15:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] teacher?

Does anyone know where Brownback is supposed to have taught? And for what time period? I called both his Topeka and his DC office, and neither had any knowledge of his ever teaching. Jerimee 23:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

One staffer tells me that perhaps he taught agriculture? Jerimee 19:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Still no info on this. After researching it for two weeks, nobody in Brownback's press office has been able to substantiate the claim. See for yourself: 202.228.3107 Jerimee 20:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I have only found one reference to it on his official senate bio [10], and it is only in passing. His 2008 campaign website bio [11] is exactly the same, so it's no help. I also found this [12] on Washington Post's, and many similar websites that mention his previous occupation as being a teacher. However, they all seem to just parrot his senate bio, and I have failed to find an independent source verifying this claim. Jhawk1024 19:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I have talked with five different staffers, and emailed the deputy press secretary. Nobody knows the information, and this combined with the inability of Brownback's office to provide it makes me wonder if the teaching claim isn't a little trumped up. I bet when he himself was a grad student he also taught courses, like the majority of grad students. Now I want to verify the broadcaster claim as well. Jerimee 19:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Brownback's press office pretty much refuses to comment on the teaching claim, so I talked a political reporter at the Kansas City Star. He said that he has never heard any details about Brownback's teaching career, that he doubts that it is notable, and the Brownback is a, in his words, "career politician." Given that no wikipedian has been able to substantiate the claim, that Brownback's office itself is unable to substantiate the claim, and that it now seems that the broadcaster claim also is specious, I am removing it from the page. Jerimee 15:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] broadcaster?

The citation provided for Sen. Brownback's career as a broadcaster indicated that Brownback worked in a radio station for a year at most. This is at the age of 22, inbetween exiting Kansas State in 1978, and enrolling at the University of Kansas in 1979. The citation itself is a fluff piece, originally published in the avowedly conservative Weekly Standard, and written by that publication's editor. The citation is hosted on Brownback campaign website.

This is not to say that it isn't a good citation, but rather to the contrary it is a reliable indication that Brownback's career as a broadcaster is insignificant. If a six month summer job at a radio station at the age of 22 is the best the campaign and its allied media can do to promote Brownback as a broadcaster, it seems clear that this is not a notable part of his professional resume. Jerimee 15:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Jerimee: It sounds like you want to use the talk page to espouse your view. See What Wikipedia is Not.--Getaway 20:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The purpose of my above comment is to indicate that Sen. Brownback is not, and has not been to any significant degree, a broadcaster, and to give other users a chance to comment before removing the broadcaster claim. Jerimee 17:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Brownback's official campaign site indicates that his experience in broadcasting is limited to a summer job when the Senator was 22 years old. This is not significant to merit listing him as a "broadcaster." See [13] Jerimee 17:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a link to the New York Times and Congressional Quarterly, where these organizations together refer to Brownback as a former "broadcaster." It is not a Wikipedian's job to decide that you just don't agree with what Brownback calls himself (and the NY Times and Congressional Quarterly) and then just unilaterally remove it. Wikipedia, for example, calls people that have edited Wikipedia for a full five minutes Wikipedians. It is not an issue. I'm going with the Times, CQ and Brownback on this one.--Getaway 17:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The New York Times does not have a reporter on staff named Rachel Kapochunas, and apparently this article was never actually printed. It is a CQ article. See Senator Brownback's own website. Wikipedia's purpose is to document the world as an encyclopedia, not to serve as an echo chamber for newspapers, politicians, or pundits. Jerimee 18:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC) I confirmed it, the New York Times never published this article: Brownback, Set to Launch GOP White House Bid, Will Fight from the Right By Rachel Kapochunas. Call the New York Times at 212.556.1234 to see for yourself. Jerimee 18:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are right about one thing. Rachel Kapochunas does not write for the NY Times, she writes for CQPolitics.com. You can review here bio for CQ here: Rachel Kapochunas' Bio at CQ Politics.com. However being right one issue does not settle the discussion. The New York Times reprinted Kapochunas' work concerning Brownback on their website. You can review that fact here: New York Times reprint of Rachel Kapochunas' work on Brownback. But all of this is irrelevant. The Congressional Quarterly, obviously a respected, well-regarded source, has stated that Brownback was a "broadcaster" at one point in his career. You requested a respected, well-regard source for the claim and there is one. I'm leaving it in. Have a good day!--Getaway 00:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Something being posted on a website, even printed in a paper, does not make it true. See Dewey Defeats Truman. The previous source, which I assume you looked at, makes it clear that Brownback does not have broadcaster credentials. Being that it is posted on Brownback's own website, and has details, it trumps Rachel Kapochunas work. You should get in touch with Kapochunas and see if you can find out where she got her info from. Jerimee 17:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I called Kapochunas. According to her, Brownback "did a radio show" while president of the Future Farmers of America. She cited a Congressional Quarterly resource edited by her collegue, Kim Hallock. I was unable to get Hallock on the phone. The only other info Kapochunas was able to provide was that this was Brownback's first job, and that he was perhaps younger than 22 when he took it. This combined with his educational biography should confirm any doubts that Brownback did not work as a "broadcaster" for either a substantial period of time, or in an involved capacity. I welcome any new information. Jerimee 17:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Getaway that the broadcaster information should stay. It comes from several different sources, from different views, and even from his own website. This information does not in anyway have a POV, and does not hurt anybody. Instead, it is the information that is known as fact. I would encourage maybe an addition to the paragraph indicating the years and time spent as a broadcaster. Maybe this will help end the dispute. Nerdland 02:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

That's fine, it's just seems a little silly. Jerimee 03:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so as it stands now, Senator Brownback's summer internship at the age of 22 holds the following distinctions:

  • It is the second paragraph in the article
  • It is the 7th longest paragraph (out of 21)
  • It is more detailed than the Senator's presidential ambitions
  • It is more detailed than any of the Senator's issue positions

One way to fix this would be to remove the fluff quote, however, doing this would return us to the conclusion that the internship is of no significance. At least it goes to show that even the most successful amoung us pad their resumes. Jerimee 03:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

After looking into the issue further, I find that I would encourage a removal of the quote from this paragraph. I agree with Jerimee that the quote is too long, and does not add to the pages importance. If it is too remain NPOV, then it should be balanced with more information that explains WHY this quote is important in Brownback's history. Nerdland 17:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

That's funny. On my talk page, you told me you agreed with the quote, but you told me to stop acting "cocky". Anyway, the quote is sourced and appropriate. It is highly inappropriate for anyone to push there POV that "Brownback is padding his resume." That is a POV statement that is being pushed on the article and that violates Wikipedia.--Getaway 18:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, you state that it is "sourced and appropriate" but give no verification. I'll put this in simple terms: just tell us why it is important. All information on the page should add to the importance of it, so tell me why this quote from his time as a broadcaster is important to the issues/history/biography/experience/etc. Nerdland 20:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for "Brownback pads his resume." for inclusion in the article. Instead, I think that the broadcaster claim can be removed from the article, because it is not significant, based on the facts. Also, saying "POV" over and over again doesn't make you right. I don't think anyone whould consider Getaway to be a neutral contributor. Articles should strive for neutralitity in presenting the facts. Jerimee 16:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Jerimee's comment about whether I am a neutral editor is not relevant to the discussion. I don't find Jerimee to be a neutral editor either, but my opinion about whether Jerimee is a neutral editor is not relevant. Now, what is relevant is whether a particular edit violates WP:NPOV or not. And I have stated and I will state again that Jerimee has repeatedly written that he/she believes that "Brownback pads his resume" and that Jerimee is attempting to impose that POV on the article--he/she has stated repeatedly that he/she will be running a campaign to take out as many of Brownback's claims as possible, based upon Jerimee's belief that Brownback pads his resume. Brownback claims to be a broadcaster and several well-qualified sources accept Brownback's claim. There has not been provided by Jerimee a third-party independent reliable source that has stated that they do not accept Brownback's claim. The only support that Jerimee has provided for the attempt to remove the sourced, important information is his/her personal opinion that he/she believes that it should not be in the article because: (1) it is "not significant" and (2) Brownback is just padding his resume. Well, as I have stated before, Jerimee is just a mere Wikipedian and his/her opinion about whether he/she believes that Brownback pads his resume is irrelevant and non-notable. There must an independent third party reliable source provided to support that claim. Jerimee has not provided one. Jerimee refuses to provide a source that does not violate WP:RS Also, as to the question whether it is "significant" or not, well, once again, Brownback makes the claim that he was once a broadcaster (and a source for that claim has been provided) and independent third-party reliable sources have been provided to support Brownback's claim (for example, CQPolitics.com has referred to his work as broadcaster and that article has been reprinted by the New York Times). Now, Jerimee might just have a point, but until he/she provides something, anything, other than his/her personal Wikipedian opinion that: (1) Brownback pads his resume or (2) Brownback's work as a broadcaster is "not significant" (whatever that means) then the broadcaster claim by Brownback will stay in the article. Have a good day! And I look forward to seeing that third-party independent reliable source to back up the Jerimee's claims.--Getaway 17:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm just surprized you think it is important. If one of the top twenty most important things about the Senator is his summer break internship at the radio station, don't let me to stand in the way. Jerimee 01:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Kim Hallock, of CQPolitcs.com, said of that she has no info on Brownback having credentials as a broadcaster, and that she suspects that this will be retracted from their Senate bio publication this coming spring. Hallock is who Rachel Kapochunas said she got her info from. Jerimee 20:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The vanity quote from the broadcaster paragraph should be removed because it is not encyclopedic, it is not central to Sam Brownback biography. Additionally:

  • It is POV.
  • It is NOT relevant to the Brownback's notability.
  • It is unduly self-serving.

Jerimee 20:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Once again, you want to remove the fact that Brownback was a broadcaster. You have stated that you are going to rid the article of items that you believe to be resume padding information. You have stated this over and over again. Now, what is standing in your way? Well, the fact that Brownback has stated that he was a broadcaster and two reliable sources (CQ and repeated by the New York Times) that he was a broadcaster. Now, the quote of Brownback is notable because it backs up his claim that he worked as a broadcaster. Now, it is not up to you whether he really worked as a broadcaster or not. Either we have evidence that he did or we have evidence that he didn't. We have a quote directly from him that states that he was a broadcaster. It is in the article. You have not explained how the quote is "POV". You just keep stating that it is "POV". That is a conclusionary statement. What is the substance behind your claim??? You have not provided any. Brownback's notability was never in question so that comment is irrelevant and off point. You have not provided any information on why the quotation is "unduly self-serving". Once again, you have provided a conclusionary statement. You have not provided any reasoning or evidence to back up you conclusion, you just simply state: its "unduly self-serving". Well, I have asked for reasons, not just conclusionary statements. So far, I have not received anything other than you opinion. Your opinion is not a valid reason or evidence to make decisions on for Wikipedia. Brownback claims that he was a broadcaster, the quote backs up the statement. You have not provided any information to contradict that statement other than you repetitive statement that it is "POV" and "self-serving"--simple conclusionary statements based upon your own personal opinion nothing more.--Getaway 20:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You can do these calls yourself. CQPolitics admits that they do not have anything to substantiate that broadcasting was a significant part of Brownback's career, and the New York Times linking to CQPolitic's, now retracted, claim, does not make it a second, or valid, source. But this isn't really what we are talking about, what we are talking about now, is whether the fact that Senator Brownback interned at a radio station for six months merits a full quote. I say that this manufactured platitude is not relevant to Brownback's notability. As for your other edits, you must admit they are POV, as you have trespassed against previous compromises you argued for (the Opus Dei stuff). Jerimee 14:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. I don't care about the Opus Dei stuff. I don't care if it is in or if it is not, as long as it is presented in a NPOV manner. I have not attempted to edit Opus Dei stuff. If I did take it out, it was merely by accident. And IF I did that then I apologize. I have attempted to be careful in specifically NOT removing that Opus Dei info because you have expressed a belief that it should be there. That position is totally consistent with my belief that we put in more and let the reader decide if it is important. There is another editor who seems not to want it in and you are assuming that it is I. It isn't. Now, back to the bigger picture. You don't want certain information in the article. I say put it all in, even the statistics about him missing half of the votes in for one month in January 2007, even though it may not meet the requirements of notability because of the very, very, very short time period covered. It is you that is attempting to remove large sections of information just based upon your own personal opinion that it should not be there. Let the reader decide, not you. If a reader does not believe Brownback when he states that he was once a broadcaster then give him/her that option. Don't make that decision for the reader. I'm putting the quote back in because it is sourced and it is relevant and it is notable because he has made a claim that he once was a broadcaster. It is NOT up to you to decide that he wasn't--unless you can provide sourced, third-party reliable sources to back up your opinion. Your personal opinion is not relevant. It is just POV pushing.--Getaway 15:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
You should read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. In particular, "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia." Jerimee 17:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei POV commentary

I edited the following sentence: However, he says he is not a member of Opus Dei.[1]. I edited it to state: However he is not a member of Opus Dei. The second version is not POV. The first version is similar to stating: "Hillary Clinton says she's not a lesbian."--Getaway 15:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting, however, even saying "he is not a member" can be POV. For example, saying "Senator Brownback is not a terrorist" would probably be POV. Jerimee 17:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
True, and the deleted line is something that is relevant to the subject. Brownback himself makes a big issue of his religious beliefs. So as long as he wants to be president, or in any public office, it is valid.
You should check citations before deleting things willy nilly. You don't get to use wiki to make your candidate look good (though I fail to see how his making this statement truly hurts him). Statements he or his office gave to the Washington Post are prefectly valid. Your Hilary Clinton smear is not relevant, comperable, or even logical.nut-meg
That Clinton example is of course not really comparable, but there is a valid point in it. By writing "He says he is not..." you are creating an implicit feeling of the form "Hey, he says he is not, but we all know he is lying". What is wrong in puting the sentence simpler ("He is not", with a reference to his own statement) and including the doubts about the fact only when there is some realiable source of them? Irwing 10:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, you noted that his mind could not be read by wikipedians. This is absurd. The man made a statement to the Washington Post. Where is the mind reading in that? I went to some trouble to find a reliable citation that could be attributed to him or his office, rather than some wacky unverifiable blog. If you have a problem with him denying membership in Opus Dei, perhaps you should give him a call. nut-meg 08:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear nut-meg: Where do I begin to unravel all of the misstatements and misunderstandings that you just laid upon me and other Wikipedians??? Your commentary really went way over the top and as such I need to respond in a like manner. First of all let me state that Irwing's edit fixed the valid problem that I saw. Problem fixed. Unfortunately, I have to now spend time unraveling the personal attacks and smears that you have unleashed. First of all, I did not remove your whole edit. Some other Wikipedian did, not me, check the edit history. I merely removed the phase, "he claims. . ." Someone else came along later and removed the whole thing. I only know this because I checked the edit history before I started this response. In other words, I engaged in a little due diligence before I spouted off my mouth, which you obviously did not. Second, Brownback is NOT my candidate. I'm not particularly wowed by him. I tend to like John McCain and/or Rudy Giuliani, but that you did not know, well, because you don't know me. You have never met me. You know nothing about me. But wait! Wikipedia is not about me. Wikipedia is not about you!!! My opinion of who the next U.S. President should be is, well, irrelevant. And, well, your opinion about me is irrelevant. You have choosen to spout off your mouth on an irrelevant subject--even though you don't know anything about it. Now, we know a lot about you. You are willing to comment on my irrelevant political beliefs even though you don't know me or anything about me. This says a lot about your hubris. You obviously have a lot of it. Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you focus on the article and not me?? How about it, huh? Because if you did then you wouldn't make the glaringly incorrect comments like you did about the irrelevant topic of my political beliefs. Now, let's talk about Hillary Clinton. She claims not to be a lesbian, but can we be sure? Can we even be sure of anything? Well, yes. We can be sure how you got your Wikipedia moniker.--Getaway 12:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
What personal attack? Unless my belief that your edits are politically motivated really hurts your feelings, there was none. No smears, nothing (which is more than I can say for you). I've gone through the history and seen you regularly removing anything that might be remotely unfavorable. You have regularly deleted any reference to Opus Dei on this page. Can you see why that makes you look like a vigilante? What he said to the Post is a valid thing to put in the article. If Hilary Clinton told the Post that she was not a lesbian, you'd be justified in running over to her page and quoting it. Im still wondering where the personal attack was. But hey, whatever set you off Im sure you'll survive. nut-meg 03:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a waste of time, but I will not let you repeat one of your lies. I have never removed a reference to Opus Dei. That is a lie on your part. Have a good day!--Getaway 21:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The Opus Dei comment is fine as it is. Why are people still worked up about it? Jerimee 01:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Somebody removed the Opus Dei compromise. I'm restoring it. Jerimee 20:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Given that the article has subjected to what are essentially revert wars for over two months, with little progress toward compromise, I think it is only fair to add the neutrality disputed tag. You can see this talk page for a listing of disputes, those that currently come to my mind are the vanity quote in bio section, the regular removal of the Opus Dei compromise that was agreed to back in January, and the deletion of info about Brownback's vote attendence. Jerimee 15:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop removing valid, sourced quote of Brownback concerning his broadcast radio days. I know that you want to remove all items that you believe to be examples of Brownback padding his resume, you have made that comment before, but without proof that: (1) he did not make the comment and (2) that is it simply untrue then the comment must stay in the article. It is notable in that it provides proof of his radio broadcaster days, which you want to deny even though the facts are not on your side, and it provides an understanding of his rural upbringing. You have not provided any reason for its removal other than you simply want it removed and that you consider it "vanity" (whatever that means!). Please stop reversing everyone that you don't agree with and attempt to work on the article in a productive manner. The article does not belong to you or anyone else for that matter and provide substantive reasons why you are making certain changes. I know, for one, that you reasons for reverting the Brownback quote [After college, Brownback spent a year working as a broadcaster; he hosted a weekly half-hour show. He has commented on the experience: "I'd grown up listening to farm broadcasters. Conversation stopped around our table when the broadcaster read the markets. . . .It stirred my interest in international affairs, since what was going on in the Soviet Union or Brazil or Australia affected our markets for wheat and soybeans."[2][3]] are not based upon anything, so far, other than you want to rid the article of anything that you personally believe to be resume padding by Brownback. Now, I have stated before and I will repeat again. That opinion of yours is your OPINION and in Wikipedia it is not allow to push your personal opinion on the article. Yes, there are POV edits going on and you are engaging in that process. Your constant and unrelenting reversal of sourced, valid, on-point quotes, directly from Brownback (and not some person you may or may not have talked to on the telephone) is an example of a POV being pushed on the article. Please stop. Please find a substantive reason why the quote should not be in the article other than your own personal opinion.--Getaway 16:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Neutrality tag is warrnted. Partisans regualrly remove relevant stuff here to the point where I doubt this aricle will ever be NPOV. nut-meg 17:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] adopted children

If the info about Brownback's adopted children is to remain on the page, it should be part of a short general narrative about Brownback's family. The way it is currently written, "The couple are the parents of five children (three daughters and two sons; two of the children are adopted).", seems to me to imply that adopted children are somehow different from non-adopted children. If their status as adopted is notable, this should be included in the article. Jerimee 16:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The children are only different in that they're adopted. Personally, I find it interesting when candidates for office have adopted children because it gives them a special insight on some issues that they otherwise might not have. I think it's relevant information that should be included, especially in the format you quote, because it does not single out certain children as being adopted. Adopted children are different from biological children in only one way: they are adopted.--Gloriamarie 18:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Brownbeck?

So i've noticed several of the news networks refer to this man as 'brownbeck' . Are they afraid of the connotations of 'brownback' ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.3.244.210 (talk) 20:27, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jerimee's comment on the edit history about 3RR

Dear Jerimee: You left this note in the most recent edit history: (cur) (last) 17:50, 22 February 2007 Jerimee (Talk | contribs) (see what wikipedia is not, or discussion, or 3R rule, or general decency) All I can say is: What gall!!! You violated 3RR first. Now, if you want I will contact an admin right now and I will agree to be blocked for my edits, but of course this will mean that you will get blocked also. Keep in mind that 3RR applies to both you and me. It is not a one-way street where it applies to everyone on Wikipedia, except Jerimee. Look, I know that you want to censor info from the Sam Brownback. But you have to compromise. I have left in a series of your edits, but you have been unwilling to compromise--especially on the Brownback quote as it concerns his work as a broadcaster. We both know why you want that quote out of the article. Once it is out then you will remove Brownback's claim that he was once a broadcaster all together. In the edit history and on the talk for the article there are several comments by you where you have stated that believe that Brownback pads his resume. That is your opinion and you are attempting to push that opinion onto the article, POV pushing. Please stop.--Getaway 18:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Please carefully examine the quoted sources as a basis for deciding regarding the disputed material. Fred Bauder 21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Sockpuppets!

Hey Getaway, great job on ferreting out and reverting the edit from that sockpuppet! [14] Nobody likes it when somebody on Wikipedia pretends to be something they’re not, especially when they're just trying to push their own POV, right? [15] Anyway, have a good day! 138.162.5.7 15:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Immigration Bill

Get2djnow - "On June 28, 2007 Mr. Brownback, in a craven attempt to save his dead presidential run, switched his vote from being in favor ("Aye") of the Kennedy-Kyl Immigration Reform bill to a vote against the bill ("Nay"). The move should be seen as an attempt to curry favor with the conservatives of the Republican party."

Please, does this sound neutral at all?

[edit] Birthplace Discrepancy

The infobox says that he was born in Garnett, but the article says that he was born in Parker. Which is right? StaticElectric 20:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

His campaign website's biography says Parker, so I'm going to go ahead and change the article to that. [16] StaticElectric 20:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with decision. I believe that he was born in Parker, but his family's home, at the time of his birth, was in Garnett.--Getaway 17:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say that is correct. Parker is a very small town. It is doubtful he was actually born there. I don't think it has a hospital. Born in Garnett, raised in Parker is probably accurate. Probably raised near Parker would be more accurate, since his family farmed. I don't think they lived in town. Kslogic 13:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attack on Character

I removed the word "Homophobe" from the very first sentence under Biography. It previously read "Homophobe Sam Brownback..." I believe the addition of that word was an attempt to vandalize this page and promote a view of Mr. Brownback that is judgemental in nature. 68.211.84.26 15:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there have been a number of similar vandalisms to active politicians lately - I wish the vandals would just give up already. --Tim4christ17 talk 13:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions? Ask them through Wikinews

Hello,

I'm Nick Moreau, an accredited reporter for Wikinews. I'm co-ordinating our 2008 US Presidential election interviews. We will be interviewing as many candidates as possible, from the Democrats, Republicans, and other parties/independents.

I'll be sending out requests for interviews to the major candidates very soon, but I want your input, as people interested in American politics: what should I ask them?

Please go to any of these three pages, and add a question.

Questions? Don't ask them here, I'll never see them. Either ask them on the talk page of any of these three pages, or e-mail me.

Thanks, Nick

[edit] Scorecards

There are now many partisan and non-partisan organizations devoted to specific topics that issue scorecards on the actions of legisltors. I think the League of Conservation Voters is one of the oldest, but there are now countless scorecards. The Concerned Women for America, for example, gives Brownback a 100% score.[17] Adding these facts to legislative biographies is like mentioning specifc votes - it's easy to cherry pick issues of interest to WP editors rather than those which best depict the activities of the subject. It'd be best of there was a general resolution on the inclusion of scorecards in bios. Until then, though they're just another relaible source that needs to be handled neutrally. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe they're appropriate or enlightening. It seems the ones currently includes have been cherry-picked to include groups that gave Brownback a 0% or very low rating.--Gloriamarie 18:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I don't think all these positions, are in the appropriate format. They don't all need their own section, refer to Mitt's or Hillary's articles for an example.-DMCer 05:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I have fixed this and improved it a bit. However, the two articles you point to are not good examples for this, since they each have their own spinoff articles just on their political positions and the section that appears in their main bio is therefore just a summary.--Gloriamarie 18:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] He spent a night in jail twice?

details? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 01:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

He said this in the Morgan State debate in Baltimore. He said he did it voluntarily to find out what it was like.--Gloriamarie 18:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Israel-Palestinians

I would encourage anyone who uses Wikipedia regularly to look up what is happening to the Israel-Palestinians section. This used to state that the pro-"transfer" position Mr. Brownback has endorsed is routinely referred to as far-right and racist in Israel, and is considered extremely controversial. Anyone who is even passingly familiar with Israeli politics will recognize this to be the case, whatever their own views on the subject. This has now been removed by someone who has instead inserted nationalist phrasing (eg. "Judea and Samaria" instead of the standard English-language news agency phrase "West Bank"). Also, information taken straight from the sources has been removed, such as that Arabs who do not comply with the application of this proposal are supposed to be expelled. This is crucial, since that is what the plan is essentially about, even if it is illegal to say so openly in Israel due to anti-racism laws. I think this clearly amounts to whitewashing a position chosen by Mr. Brownback, which is in fact considered extremely divisive and inflammatory by the Israeli mainstream, not to mention among American Jews and in the rest of the world. That should be part of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.250.33 (talk) 06:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)