Talk:Salvia dorrii

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It would be nice to have a Native American name for this plant listed in the article. Hardyplants 08:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The Uto-Aztecan word used in common descriptions I have heard literally translates as "Tobacco Sage". This is the common word used for it today. There is another word used for it in Ute ceremonies, but I do not feel it would be respectful to print that word here since the Ute People have strong prohibitions and taboos about their language being written down. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 17:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Mildly intoxicating"

This is a nice article, and my compliments to User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey for his work on it.

I have a question about this phrase under "Morphology":

The grey green colored leaves have an intensely strong but pleasant scent and are mildly intoxicating with a minty aroma when handled or crushed.

I don't understand the term "mildly intoxicating" as used here; it reads as if one can become intoxicated either via the scent of the leaves or else by handling them. Is "intoxicating" used figuratively here? Or, does the intoxication take place through some other action than what is suggested by this sentence—for example, ingestion? I think the sentence needs to be rewritten to clear this up. alanyst ^/talk/ 20:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The aroma that comes from crushing the stems also is intoxicating, just as is smoking it or breathing steam made from it in the sweat lodge. I know this to be a fact and its also refered to in Michael Valentine Smiths Book since he describes an afternoon he spent eating it, smoking it, and smelling it. It also has been proven to suppress the spread of cancer and is currently under research. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 05:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe User:Hardyplants rewrote the sentence and clarified the issue. Thanks! alanyst ^/talk/ 05:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced statements

Overall, this article is well referenced. I wonder, though, if Jeff or someone else can provide references for the statements in the last two paragraphs of the "Ethnobotany" section. The last part of the first paragraph in that same section seems to need a reference too, as only the first half seems to be cited. I'm happy to tag the material in question as uncited if that would be helpful, but I thought I'd bring it up here first as a bit more friendly way of addressing the issue. alanyst ^/talk/ 20:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Which statements? Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 05:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Almost the whole section, really; but to be specific:

• "Native Americans and in particular the Ute Tribe from Utah and Colorado had several uses for this plant: leaves were smoked as a tobacco substitute for their mildly hallucinogenic effects [...]; also used in sweatlodge ceremonies by throwing small amounts of the leaves on the burning rocks used to make steam; a tea mixed with Elk root and Salvia dorii is mixed together and given to reduce the size of tumors and lessen the mechanism of angiogenesis with tumor cells."
• "It can be made into a tea, which decreases sweating, salivation, and mucous secretions in the sinuses, throat, and lungs. Cold tea can be a good stomach tonic, while a lukewarm tea is good for treating sore throats. The leaves can also be used as a uterine hemostatic tea for heavy menstruation; however, since it can also decrease lactation, nursing mothers are advised not to use it."
• "Tobacco sage is considered sacred by many Native Americans since it is used to make smudge sticks, a type of incense, and used in the sweat lodge and ceremonies of several tribes, most notably, the Diné, Ute, and Shoshone."

Only that first paragraph has any sort of citation, and that's in the part that I elided (the parenthetical remark about the plant not being orally active, citing Smith). The rest of the statements about ethnobotany could use citations. alanyst ^/talk/ 05:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The first one is cited. The other two came from another article, which cites the materials and all Salvia's (even bull sage, the weed of the west) have these properties. You can find the citations here. White sage. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 05:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[Outdent.] Ah, are you saying that the Smith reference applies not only to the parenthetical remark, but the entire first paragraph about Native American uses for the plant? If so, the footnote marker needs to be moved to the end of the paragraph; if not, then the statements surrounding the parentheses are still uncited. The statements about medicinal use of S. dorrii need to be cited. I'm not sure that the same material from White sage ought to apply, unless there's a source that says that Native Americans used S. dorrii (or any of the many other Salvia species) in the same way that they used S. apiana. Plus, the article on White sage said nothing about it being used to treat cancer; nor did it or any of its sources mention use of it by the Diné, Ute, and Shoshone tribes. So, those statements need to be supported as well. alanyst ^/talk/ 06:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Alan, I am not going to split hairs on it. I have done sufficient research on these plants and the sources pertaining to them for years. I can identify them in the field and I collect them as well. You may remove whatever you feel needs to be removed. But be aware of the implications of removing a reference to a plant that may hold the cure for cancer and letting people explore this more fully. Perhaps those statements you are concerned with you can request citiations on. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 06:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Daryl Gardner, the Ute who instructed me on Ute herbal medicine died of lung cancer on August 20, 2005. He had lung cancer for over 10 years and used this plant to treat himself. It significantly slowed the progress of the disease until the cancer finally became resistant to its affects. I am unaware of lung cancer victims living 10 years with the disease without requiring advanced treatments, which Daryl did not get until about two months before he died. Most people with this disease die within six months. My mother in 2001 was diagnosed with pre-cancerous nodules in her lungs and she was given two treatments of this mixture Daryl was using and 3 months later these nodules had completely disappeared. She is also healthier today than in 2001. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 06:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay -- I'm honestly just trying to provide some constructive criticism on the article. As far as the cancer claims go, I'm confident you have the skill to set up a blog or website that touts the benefits of using the plant for such purposes. I'll tag the statements I'm concerned about and let them sit for a while to see if anyone can find cites for them, and then delete whatever couldn't be supported. alanyst ^/talk/ 06:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOR. It doesn't matter whether your conclusions are correct or not, this is not the right venue, and can even hinder consideration of your ideas, because anyone can alter what you write.--Curtis Clark 13:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It is perfectly acceptable for an expert on a subject to write something he believes is true and is probably published in a reliable source somewhere. It is also acceptable for someone else to decide a claim is too controversial to stay in the article without a proper source. Editorial judgement must be exersized case by case. WAS 4.250 14:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Salvia dorii5.jpg

Image:Salvia dorii5.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)