Talk:Salvador Dalí

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Contents

[edit] WARNING: For this and other articles about artists!

User 58.10.64.40 is entering deceptive descriptions of her/his edits, apparently to conceal the real changes.

Her/his edits consistently add a commercial site that sells fine art.

Her/his edits introduce fake inclusions in external links, to invalidate them. This leaves only the added site, "EJ FINE ARTS" as valid link.

ATTENTION, USER 58.10.64.40: If you continue with this behavior you will be banned from editing Wikipedia and nobody will buy from the site of reference. Jclerman 13:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Relationship between Dali and Lorca speculative at best. --Daniel C. Boyer 16:55, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dali may have been attracted to Lorca (who can say?), but he was perfectly conventional in his typically macho Spanish horror of homosexuality, and shunned the very idea entirely ("No! Do not misunderstand me - I am not a homosexual" - Dali by Dali). What he may very well have been was transgendered: he identified strongly with his wife (used to sign himself Gala Salvador Dali), dressed in feminine or effeminate garb, and there is the reference in one of his titles to "at the age of six, when the artist believed himself to be a little girl".
Nuttyskin 03:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


I (Infrogmation) moved the below paragraph submitted by anon 136.142.105.127:

"While Dali and Gala clearly loved each other, their relationship was not a typical marriage. Dali frequently bragged that he had had sex with Gala only once. This is just one example of Dali's obsessions with sex. He also often referred to homosexuality and masturbation, which may have been merely a gleeful way to shock the public at large. In any case, it is clear that Dali's romantic and sexual life were unusual."

If we're going to write about Dalí's sex/love life, we should have something better and more accurate than this. I know enough to write a paragraph or two, but as Dalí doesn't fit into standard categories the subject can't be done justice without mentioning some rather explicit terms. I havn't done so as I don't think this really fits into the tenor of the article. What do others think? Should such personal info go into the article? Maybe a seperate article, something like Salvador Dalí's sexuality? -- Wondering simply, Infrogmation 12:58, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Is there enough to write an article (not stub)? If so, go ahead. If not, just start a new subheading and write it here. --Menchi (Talk)â 13:04, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Should mention his being named a Marques. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:30, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done. --Daniel C. Boyer 14:21, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Should mention paranoia-criticism. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:32, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Agree. Maybe as Paranoic-critical method? Or is your title now more used? Is this influential on any other artists? Do you feel up to making a first draft of an article? If so, I promise to help keep Wik from trying to have it deleted ;-)... -- Infrogmation 19:20, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I made a first stab at an article at Paranoiac-critical method, which seems to be the prefered rendering. I freely admit I don't fully follow some of the jargon Dalí used to try to explain this, so if someone has a firmer handle on thinks they can improve the article, I urge them to please do so. -- Infrogmation 21:35, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


Should mention work in holography but I am not sure how to implement this. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:02, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Should mention bulletism. --Daniel C. Boyer 14:21, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The 1955 title

The Sacrement of the Last Supper

has the second word misspelled (i doubt it is Briticism) & should be either corrected, (or labelled at least with "[sic]" if he intended it ([smile] which it would be foolish, with SD, to rule out [grin]).

Sorry, that was probably just my own touch of dislexia. -- Infrogmation 19:15, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Didn't he had some mind issue with a stillborn brother that died before he was born and was also named Salvador?

Yes. In his Secret Life autobiography, Dalí writes he had an older brother with the same name, who was an earlier version of himself, a genius "too much in the absolute" who died at the age of 7. Biographers who have bothered to check the records have found this to be inaccurate; his older brother was "Salvador Galo Anselm Dalí" who died at the age of 22 months. -- Infrogmation 17:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "was an important Catalan painter"

Dali was not an independent catalanist. In the same, why is Picasso an spanish (or french) painter, and not an andalusian painter?

IMO one can describe Dalí either as "Catalan" or "Spanish" or both with accuracy. He certainly identified culturally as a Catalan and spoke that language better than Spanish. If he was "not an independent catalanist", it should be noted that openly being one was not very practical under the Franco regeme for those who valued their health and freedom... Anyway, I don't think that advocation of independence is a necessary criteria for being Catalan. In a number of paintings Dalí included the old Catalan flag. While I think it's fine to call Dalí either Catalan or Spanish, I think Catalan is a bit more precise in this context. If what is best to call him is disputed, please discuss here, I'll be content to go along with a consensus either way. -- Infrogmation 20:07, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

I think the best compromise is to refer to him as a Spanish-Catalan. To call him Spanish denies his Catalan heritage, and vice versa. In addition, a Catalan may also be from France. Therefore, the term "Spanish-Catalan" is best.

Peter Wye

A Catalan is a Catalan, independently of what his or her political status in one of the aforementioned countries might be.--81.42.165.220 12:02, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Demonym

I feel Spanish-Catalan is honorable enough as a compromise and I salute it, but I put down my vote here for Catalan only. Indeed, I agree with Infrogmation completly: one does not have to be independentist to be called by the name of her or his non-sovereign nation. I invite you to put your votes here for your choice. Thank you. --Liberlogos 14:00, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A: Catalan; B: Catalan-Spanish; C: Spanish-Catalan or D: Spanish.

A --Liberlogos 14:07, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A --81.42.165.220 11:55, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am Scottish. Scotland is a country inside the UK (Great Britain), much as Catalonia is contained within Spain; but I wouldn't want to be described as British-Scottish. Call him Spanish if you're talking about Spanish painters or his fascist-style Spanish nationalism - but in the last analysis, he is Catalan.
Nuttyskin 00:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations

The quotations listed in the article are not cited or verified and thus may or may not be informative. Please verify or remove. Hyacinth 21:46, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do so. (Is this a new policy?) I believe the Napoleon one is from his "Secret Life" autobiography; I'll try to source them within the next few days. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 23:23, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I got sidetracked. The Napoleon one is indeed in "Secret Life", though in my Dover edition worded slightly differently (may be a different translation from the Catalan; if I can't find it in those words will modify); the other two seem widely reprinted but I'm still looking for original source; I just put out some queries. -- Infrogmation 18:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar and clarity

First paragraph hyperlinks "dreamlike" to the dream page. This makes no sense. It fails to inform further by redirecting to an unrelated article. The redirect to surreal makes sense. But to dreamlike? Let's not hyperlink adjectives Lucky 23 21:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The second photo of Dal&iacute used here Image:Dali01.jpg is claimed by the uploader to be public domain. Has anyone seen anything to confirm or doubt this? Comment here or at Image talk:Dali01.jpg. -- Infrogmation 14:33, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Image:Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bumblebee around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening.jpg has no copyright info. Being from 1944 it certainly could be copyrighted, but is/was it ever? (I have a poster of it on my wall with no copyright asserted or credited.) Wondering simply, -- Infrogmation 14:36, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dali's date of expulsion from the Academy of Arts

According to this link;

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/dali.html

Dali was expelled in 1923, and not 1926 as the article says. Anyone want to clarify the date?

I heard he may have been temporarily expelled twice. --JordanZed 14:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real Academia de Bellas Artes de San Fernando

Can anyone also confirm that if Dali have studied at the same school (Royal Academy of Arts San Fernando)as Pablo Picasso did? Becasue I can't seem to find an alumni list of this school on the net. And there's no information claiming that both painters studied at the same school. I've searched though the internet, various names comes up (i.e. Academy of Arts, Royal Academy of Fine Arts, San Fernando Academy) I want to know for sure that if they both studied at the same school, or they studied in different schools with similar names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heydude (talk • contribs) 31 Oct 2005

[edit]  ?

Dalí seemed to have little empathy for humanity in general. Perhaps Dalí's most honest statement of his political philosophy was when he said that he did not care about others so long as he himself could be king. Looked at through purely selfish motives, Dalí's shifting ideologies gain a sort of consistency. When Dalí was poor and obscure he advocated violent overthrow of all governmental and social institutions; later in life he was content with the Franco dictatorship since Dalí himself was rich and famous.

Does anyone have a cite for this? It is POV, is it notable POV is the question Stirling Newberry 00:10, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Does any one know what painting/piece of art which Dali has done has sold for the most and how much did it sell for.

[edit] NPOV/LGBT

Is the introduction's sentence "Dalí was an artist of great talent and imagination" necessary? Is it a little biased?

Also: I see he's been added to the Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transsexual Artists category. I was not aware that any of these words applied to him (except "Artist"). I know that in his autobiography he was rather vehement about his not being a homosexual, which would rule the first two out. Why was he added there?

I now notice the last quote of his, but I have to say I'm still not sure. --Instant Classic 00:45, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As I remember it, he may have experimented with same-sex relations at one point (or maybe at various points in a more or less occasional fashion). I agree it is debatable whether having same-sex sex in itself makes you an homo- or bisexual. If he says he isn't, then he probably isn't. Of course, not that he was sane enough to take his word at face value. Anyway, just commenting.--81.42.165.220 12:10, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

He tried it and he didn't like it. That doesn't make him bisexual. I mean, if he was willing to tell us about his experience, but, also in his own words, say that he wasn't gay, then he isn't. What gives anyone the right to contradict him? Let's not rewrite history here. Gatesofawesome! 19:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerning Dalí's sexual orientation I would advise interested readers to check the very enlightening books by Ian Gibson, The Shameful Life of Salvador Dalí and Lorca-Dalí: el amor que no pudo ser and also Sex, Surrealism, Dalí and Me by Carlos Lozano.Orlando F 23:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I reverted a 2 July 2005 edit by User:Alanromero, as I thought some of the chonology was off and there were many dubious or speculative attributions of political motives from Dalí's paintings. Saying a surrealistic depiction of Lenin is anti-communist while a surrealistic depiction of Hitler is celebratory of fascisim is IMO conjecture unless backed up by corroborative writing by Dalí or his associates from the time. -- Infrogmation July 2, 2005 06:16 (UTC)


[edit] Dali -> ADHD sufferer?

Has anyone investigated the possibility that Dalí had ADHD, either as a child, or with some continuing symptoms into adulthood? There are a lot of similarities between his behaviour and and the behaviour of one with the said disorder. Check the symptoms for both ADHD and AADD on this site. -- Christian

A quick search on Google for 'salvador dali adhd' has turned up a number of sites listing this as a possibility. There may be some information on him in this light in the book 'The Gift of ADHD', I've never read it though; be interested to hear from those who might have. - C

I know he had difficulty reading, and said that even as an adult could not recite the entire alphabet.
Nuttyskin 00:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It wasn't his ADHD that caused the symptoms rather he disliked the teaching method they used back in his days (memorization, etc) 72.204.84.1 03:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link

Hi,

The first link is dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.103.212.146 (talk) 15 Oct 2005

Long live the second link! -- Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

what are you talking about? You mean like link in zelda? I doubt it.

[edit] Brother?

I have heard (but without any reliable source) that Dalí's older brother, who died at some young age, was also named Dalí? Is this true, or did someone make that up? If so, it might well go in the article. - ElAmericano 03:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, his deceased older brother was also named Salvador Dalí. Copied from somewhere above this paragraph:Jclerman 04:56, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Didn't he had some mind issue with a stillborn brother that died before he was born and was also named Salvador?
Yes. In his Secret Life autobiography, Dalí writes he had an older brother with the same name, who was an earlier version of himself, a genius "too much in the absolute" who died at the age of 7. Biographers who have bothered to check the records have found this to be inaccurate: his older brother [. . . "Salvador Galo Anselm Dalí" . . .] died at the age of 22 months. -- Infrogmation 17:43, 11 May 2004
Sorry, didn't look through all of that above, only for a title with something about a brother. - ElAmericano 15:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fascism and Laszlo

From the article:

Dalí has sometimes been portrayed as a fascist supporter, especially by his enemies in surrealist groups. The reality is probably somewhat more complex, especially in light of the fact that he was an acquaintance of famed architect and designer Paul Laszlo, who was ethnically Jewish.

Am I missing something? I think this involves an assumption that fascism is inherently radically anti-Semitic and that therefore someone with a close Jewish friend cannot be a fascist. Bad assumption, based on a confusion of fascism and Nazism. The were Jewish Fascists in Italy in the 1920s, and a case could be made (and, with reference to Israel, sometimes is made) that there are Jewish neo-fascists today. Franco himself, and his regime, either fascist or something very close to it, were not particularly anti-Semitic, and certainly did not cooperate with Hitler's Final Solution, even though Nazi Germany had quite recently been instrumental in installing him. Having an ethnically Jewish friend has no bearing on the question of whether Dalí may have been a fascist sympathizer. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree; so why not change the sentence?

Piotr

It has been long since changed: you are replying to a remark from half a year ago. - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

The entire biography section was removed over 3 weeks ago by an anon, an action which bizarrely doesn't seem to have attracted any attention. The article is plainly inadequate without it, so I have restored the biog. in its final version before deletion. Vilcxjo 10:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Looking over the biography, it's certainly a bit of a mess, especially towards the end. But better to try tidying it up than just wipe it completely. Vilcxjo 11:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

"doesn't seem to have attracted any attention": I can't speak for anyone else, but I only watchlisted this when I added {{Catalan-speaking world}}; I didn't look at the history before that at all. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another picture

I think this article is very good. However I think it should have a picture of the Persistence of Memory. This is after all his most famous work. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gutworth (talk • contribs) 20 Nov 2005

[edit] Dali as a Writer

Surely this deserves a mention. I don't know much about it's content, but Dali did make (perhaps fleeting) claims that his writing was of more importance than his paintings. Prometheus912 12:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Locations of his works

I fell it would be beneficial to mention where his works are located if on permanent display in a gallery, or at the house, castle, or theatre. I also think a picture of the bay in Pt Lligat, would be useful, as various views from there feature heavily in his work, especially C of St J on the C with the entire bottom of the work being the view from the pavenemt outside his door. Transnistria 06:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

True, but if the relevant view from outside Dali's front door is also in the painting (and Port Lligat, I know, is a conservation village) what illustrative purpose could there be in including a picture of it?
Nuttyskin 00:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Webcoast link

In the external links, I'm inclined to remove the Webcoast link. The images aren't particularly well scanned, and they've stamped their site name in big letters on top of each. Plus the site appears to use both Java and Flash for no obvious purpose. If someone thinks this should be kept, please respond in the next 48 hours and say why. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dali's father

The biography states that Dali's father was a "strict disciplinarian", which is totally inaccurate. Dali was an excessively spoiled child - so much so that he often wet the bed just for the fun of it. His parents adored him and fulfilled his every whim (however, they refused to let him overindulge in food, for whatever reason). It may be more accurate to say that Dali's father foresaw for his son a definite professional future, though he encouraged Dali and allowed him to enroll in art school after some family friends remarked on his son's exceptional ability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.195.8.26 (talk) 18 Jan 2006

Any citation on that? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I donnot find a citation of the following, but a legend or not, the act of breaking the relationship with his father is quite famous. He just sent him a letter with semen stating that upon the reception of that letter he owed him nothing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.206.242.166 (talk • contribs) 28 June 2006.

Folks, if you can find citation in a reliable source, then it goes into the article. Otherwise, one legend is as unlikely as another. - Jmabel | Talk 20:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Information Needed

Anyone with the year for "Nuclear Cross", please post it under Dali's works. Teabagged 20:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] possible copyright infringement

I have removed a section which seems to have been copied from:

http://www.artinternationalwholesale.com/cgi-bin/ccp52/cp-app.cgi?pg=newssdfeatartist

Do we have permission to use this text? --Bucephalus 18:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Almost certainly not, if it originated there. - Jmabel | Talk 04:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of sections in the article

As it is now, the section "Dali's politics" is before "Works", which seems a bit out of proportions, given that Dali is far more known as a painter than as a politically involved person. I therefore suggest that we move the politics section below the art-section. --Sangild 13:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The politics section is really just a part of the biography. I will edit it so it is a sub section. Arniep 22:07, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

The drummer from Reel Big Fish, Andrew Gonzales, is listed as being a diciple of Dali, I think this should probably be Rob Gonsalves, the Canadian magical realist but i'll leave it to more knowledgable minds than mine to edit :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.114.51 (talk • contribs) 15 June 2006.

I will simply remove it. - Jmabel | Talk 20:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anarcho-monarchism

Wasnt that just the way to show Marxist surrealists that he disagrees them in anyway possible either than his really political position that should be explained? Luka Jačov 21:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I will remove the conjectures there: some people are just humor-impaired. Insofar as someone was serious in writing that, it was original research in pretty nearly the worst sense. - Jmabel | Talk 20:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compliance with WP standards, peerreviewer script output

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

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    • arguably
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate changes have been made; see FAC. --DanielNuyu 23:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surrealism

We mention his falling out with the Surrealists over politics; on a different front of his relationship to surrealism, wasn't his precise draftsmanship somewhat at odds with what had been considered "surrealist" visual art prior to him? At this point the term so much refers to Dalí himself that I imagine this is a bit hard to sort out. I seem to remember controversy among the early surrealists as to whether there could even be surrealist visual art. - Jmabel | Talk 23:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an important point. At the start of the surrealist movement, there was a tendancy towards exploring the subconscious, and what dwelt 'below rationality' (hence 'sur-real') and I think some proponents considered true surrealist painting to be a visual form of automatic writing.
Dali's push towards photo-realism was therefore in direct collision, but his success and fame meant that he won the debate by default, and the surrealist movement came to be alomst defined by his style. I think it was Andre Breton who begrudgingly conceded that Dali's paranoiac-critical method was a 'powerful tool' for the movement.
So yes, there is at the very least a tension between Dali's style and some of the early surrealists, and even a case for saying Dali wasn't a surrealist at all, at least not to begin with. Perhaps someone with more time than me can add in something more concrete on the matter? 81.96.161.52 15:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan-Spanish again

Someone changed Catalan-Spanish back to Spanish. I chose not to do anything about it since I'm new to this discussion. But I gather that the consensus sofar has been to include both "Catalan" and "Spanish" in the intro. I checked out a mini-sample of intros from WP's List of Catalans and the results are mixed: Isaac Albéniz's intro has "Spanish" without mention of Catalan, José Carreras, Joan Miró and Pablo Casals are described as "Catalan Spanish" or "Catalan-Spanish" and Antoni Gaudí is featured as a "Catalan architect" with no mention of Spanish in the intro. Btw, how important is how the people define/defined themselves? Are there WP recommendations on this? ---Sluzzelin 02:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This seems a frequently changed detail; in the history of the article the description has frequently been changed to "Catalan", "Spanish", and back again. I suggest we use both, and leave it at "Catalan-Spanish" unless discussion and consensus agrees on something different. Unless the editor gives good reason and there is discussion on the talk page first, I suggest we make a policy of simply reverting any changes which delete reference to either Spanish or Catalan. -- Infrogmation 02:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Infrogmation. As (barring some minor details in the nomination) Dalí appears to be on his way to FA, it would be petty to see something as minor as this become a nuisance at this point. --DanielNuyu 07:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I also agree with Infrogmation. These sorts of national pride issues are fairly common on various articles around Wikipedia. It is impossible to please everyone, but at least we can try for the most neutral designation. -- Solipsist 07:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dali Bi?

His sexual orientation isn't well defined as "bisexual" (he's more like "asexual")_. He is quoted as saying his ONLY homosexual experience was "painful" and his ONLY heterosexual experience was "over-rated". He preferred onanism to partner(s) sex. I'm removing it. [[1]]

[edit] Sources

What makes the biography at astrodatabank.com a citable source? I don't object to citing astrology sites for time of birth, but for a biography I don't see why that should be considered any better than a personal web site. - Jmabel | Talk 05:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Simlarly, artelino.com, cited in the article, looks like little more than a commercial site to sell prints. - Jmabel | Talk 05:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

the astro site data is clearly based on the quote from his Secret Life where he states his time and place of birth. I have now added this quote [and others] to the article. Peter morrell 06:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion

There should at least be a mention of Dali's conversion to Catholicism - if not a section. This step was a major descision in his life and is reflected in his work; though some people saw it as a cynical move done to allow him to return to his home town of Catalonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nev1 (talk • contribs) 5 October 2006.

[edit] The Secret Life of Salvador Dali

Would be nice to have an article on The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí. I'll write it eventually if nobody else does. --Dangherous 16:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If you do, please be sure to include George Orwell's critical review "Benefit of Clergy," with some very famous Orwellian quotes such as, "One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being."
—George Orwell (1944). "Benefit Of Clergy: Some Notes On Salvador Dali". The Saturday Book for 1944. 
Also, please be sure to include the following important incident:
While in New York in 1942, he denounced his surrealist colleague filmmaker Luis Buñuel as an atheist, causing Buñuel to be fired from his position at the Museum of Modern Art and subsequently blacklisted from the American film industry.

"In his book The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí, I was described as an atheist, an accusation that at the time was worse than being called a Communist. Ironically, at the same moment that Dali's book appeared, a man named Prendergast who was part of the Catholic lobby in Washington began using his influence with government officials to get me fired. [At Bunuel's job at the Museum of Modern Art he was tasked with selecting and distributing anti-Nazi propaganda films to North and South America, and he was also supposed work on producing such films.] I knew nothing at all about it, but one day when I arrived at my office, I found my two secretaries in tears. They showed me an article in a movie magazine called Motion Picture Herald about a certain peculiar character named Luis Bunuel, author of the scandalous L'Âge d'Or and now an editor at the Museum of Modern Art. Slander wsn't exactly new to me, so I shrugged it off, but my secretaries insisted that this was really very serious. When I went into the projection room, the projectionist, who'd also read the piece, greeted me by wagging his finger in my face and smirking, "Bad Boy!"
Finally, I too became concerned and went to see Iris, who was also in tears. I felt as if I'd suddenly been sentenced to the electic chair. She told me that the year before, when Dali's book had appeared, Pendergast had lodged several protests with the State Department, which in turn began to pressure the museum to fire me. They'd managed to keep things quiet for a year; but now, with this article, the scandal had gone public, on the same day that American troops disembarked in Africa.
Although the director of the museum, Alfred Barr, advised me not to give in, I decided to resign, and found myself once again out on the street, forty-three and jobless."

—Luis Buñuel (1984). My Last Sigh: The Autobiography of Luis Buñuel. Vintage, 182–183. 
—Écrasez l'infâme 17:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Catalan-Spanish"

I think it would lead those who do not know a lot about Spanish politics to think that Spain and Catalonia are at the same level. Even if you consider Catalonia a nation (only because it says in the preambule of the recently aprooved statute that the parliament of Catalonia considers it a Nation), it wasn't his nationality. There is no such thing as Catalan natioanlity (in the terms recognised at an international level), passport, embassy, nor has it got a seat in the united nations. Catalan-Spanish suggests some sort of Double nationality. People living in what the Spanish Constitution recognises as a Nationality, have Spanish nationality never the less. I would suggest: - Spanish Catalan artist, because catalan can be understood as a type of Spaniard. - Spanish artist from Catalonia, absolutley true.

Picasso was a Spanish artist from Catalonia, but that is another matter.
The implication of "a type of Spaniard" seems to me to be precisely the problem. Catalans are (mainly) Spanish citizens, but they are not Spaniards. Would you also call a Mudéjar a "Spaniard"?
Jmabel | Talk 07:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A spaniard is from a legal point of view a spanish citizen. Someone from Catalonia is a citizen of Spain and therefor a Spaniard. And you can't tell any great diferences from an ethnic point of view to the rest of Spaniards either. A muedejar wasn't a Spaniard from a legal point of view because he couldn't attain Spanish citezenship since the Spanish state didn't exist. If one feels catalan, spanish, neither, or both is something quite different, but it is outide the facts. And by the way Picasso was born in Andalusia.

And why aren't they spaniards in your opinion? And by spanish I mean Spanish, not castilian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MiuratheMaia (talk • contribs) 9 November 2006.

Picasso: You're right, but I think we can agree that it's a complete side issue. (He grew up in Catalonia.)
"Spaniard" in English almost always connotes (among other things) native Spanish speaker, and a certain element of identity. I don't think very many English-speakers would use "Spaniard" interchangeably with "Spanish citizen" or even "native Spanish-speaking Spanish citizen". To update on my Mudéjar example, a person of Moroccan parentage born in Tarifa is a Spanish citizen, and could well be a native speaker, but I think few would call that person a "Spaniard".
I certainly don't mean exclusively "Castillian" when I say Spaniard. The Andalusians and Leonese are every bit as Spanish a Castillians. Ditto Extremeños, and, I suppose (though I have no experience of these regions), Asturians, Riojans and even Aragonese. Probably quite a few Galicians as well consider themselves Spanish in a sense beyond citizenship (I could be wrong: not a region I've visited), and some Valencians certainly do, but it is very rare to meet a Catalan or Basque who embraces Spanish identity. - Jmabel | Talk 07:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


I can see your point, and maybe Spaniard doesn't refer to all the people of Spain. Still living in one of the "nationalities" of Spain doesn't give you double nationality. That's why I think Spanish is more accurate. Some sort of doubole nationality isn't unthinkable, but so far there is no such thing in Spain. Anyway, out of curiosity; ¿what differenciates Catalans form other Spanish people so much? I can see what you mean in the example of a Morroccan, but a Catalan...

I fully appreciate and usually have lots of fun with the lenghts to which some people will go to refer to catalans as not being spanish, but with this article being in the front page Wikipedia has reached an unfortunate milestone, bordering sheer idiocy. Look: spaniard is the same as spanish, no matter what spin you want ot put to it. Just get a copy of merriam-webster and look it up. Spaniard is 'a native or inhabitant from Spain'. Dali was spanish, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter. Should we go to the G.W. Bush article and start referring to him as 'Texan-American'? Please...Jope

No, especially because Bush is not much of a Texan (as they say there "all hat and no cattle"). And Texan is not an ethnicity. But we often do this with African American cultural figures (see for example Jacob Lawrence, Romare Bearden, though, much to my surprise, this isn't what we've done for Kara Walker). Another way to handle this, by the way, is what we do with Woody Allen or Mel Brooks, where we don't mention ethnicity in the lead, but it is one of the first things we mention in the biographical section that follows immediately after.
If we are going to be silly, we might as well do it all the time, and start referring to all people from the province of Murcia as Murcian-Spanish :))) Sarg 08:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
That's a total strawman argument. Murcia simply does not have a sharply distinct cultural and artistic history. It is simply not an analogous case. - Jmabel | Talk 23:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Though I said it as a joke, my argument still stands: distinct cultural and artistic history shouldn't have anything to do with this issue (plus, some Murcians will surely disagree with that. Oh, but Murcia has next to zero political power inside Spain, and sadly that matters). I mean, my neighbourhood has a very distinct cultural and artistic history too. Catalans are Spaniards whether they like it or not, and mixing their cultural heritage with their nationality is just plain delusional, and more a political argument than a day to day reality. Sarg 07:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, at the moment Sarg's centralizing Spanish view has completely taken over the article. In no place is Dalí characterized as Catalan. I'm appalled, but I'm tired of fighting over it. As far as I'm concerned, this is as if we didn't mention that Jacob Lawrence was African American rather than just generically American. But it's really not my fight. - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Funny how the consensus is being characterized as mine when I haven't even edited this article, ever... Phew, I never knew I had the power to manipulate editor's minds with a mere opinion on the talk page! The power! Besides, I think "Born in Catalonia, Spain", makes already the point. Sarg 07:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Entire Article wiped"

Dunno if anyone noticed but someone completely erased the article. Could someone please revert it to a working version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.83.184.58 (talk)

I can confirm this; it just reads a homophobic slur now. Can someone change it back? --Schroeder74 01:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought articles usually get semi-protected once they appear on the main page? At least, many in the past have. Esn 03:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on Catalan-Spanish

The expression "Catalan Spanish" at the begining of this article, or in any other article referring to any Spanish personality from Cataluña, is misleading and wrong. It somehow implies that both realities (Catalan and Spanish) are at a similar level, also impliying that this person had the "luck" of being both of them at the same time, like "French-Spanish" or "Japanese-Congolese". Again, this idea is absurd, lacking any political or legal bases.

Cataluña is a region of Spain (all of them currently termed "comunidades autonomas"), and it is contained in Spain in the same way Bretagne is in France. They are currently administrative regions contained inside a country, regardless of the history of their coming into being so and whatever the self-government they may have. Any Catalan, Dali included, cannot be Catalan without being Spanish. It would be a matter of discussion if this person was born out of Spain from a Catalan family or renounced his spanish nationality, but this is not Dali's case. The easiest way to understand this, if the explanation is not enough, is the passport test. Any Catalan travelling to a non-EU country will use a Spanish passport (unless multiple nationalities are applied, again not Dali's situation), as it would happen with every person from Bretagne (French passport) or from Kansas (USA passport). The Catalan passport does not exist.

The question of independence is a constant source of discussion inside Cataluña, between those for it and those against it. It is again a matter of discussion the historical bases of any position as well as the extent to which they are represented today in Catalan society. However, as part of this struggle, many aspects of policy, sports, or culture are used persistently by those who are for independence as a way to make their interest public. It would be a shame if Wikipedia was turned into a platform for political partidism, as well as any kind of partidism, because it would then loose its ability to be an accurate source of knowledge. This article, as well as all the ones referring to Spanish personalities from Cataluña, are already deeply affected in that sense, since there is ABSOLUTELY no other relevant Spanish personality that, when portrayed in Wikipedia, was referred as Andalusian-Spanish, Madrilenian-Spanish, Valencian-Spanish or in any other way (please check Picasso, Lorca, Juan Carlos I, Miguel Indurain, Rafael Nadal, Placido Domingo, Sagasta, Ramon y Cajal, or Cela). It also doesn't happen with personalities of other countries in which different states or regions can be found (Kentukian-American, Breton-French). Only those who are from Cataluña (again, I insist, a region as Spanish as Andalusia, Madrid or Murcia), are referred as "Catalan Spanish", this being just the expression of a political will (neither in the Spanish version of Wikipedia nor in the Catalan version of Wikipedia, Dali is presented as "Catalan Spanish", probably because they are not considered effective ways of promoting the Catalan cause). This is wrong.

Thus, I suggest that the initial sentence reads

"...was a Spanish artist..."

including any information about his biography or personal feelings in other parts of the article, and never in such misleading way.

Any other attempts of using this encyclopedia as a political platform should be prevented. There is no politics in an encyclopedia, just accurate facts.

    • I completely agree with this editor. He is basically right in everything he has said. I just hope that whoever made the original error did so just out of ignorance, and not to push his own political agenda. It is a bit shameful to have such an error on a featured article. Sarg 07:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
    • That was exactly my point, but you said it better. Thank you.

[edit] Photo

A very nice article! However, wouldn't it be good to have also a more recent photo of Dali, featuring visibly his famous moustache? AdamSmithee 08:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism of The Article on Salvador Dali

There is vandalism in this article: It starts with the first time that Dali's parents took him to his brother's grave and told him he was the reincarnation of his dead brother... and goes on to repeat that same statement several times... That is not only unnecessary, and inappropriate. If nobody objects, I'm revising that statement for propriety's sake if not appearance in this article and hosting website. Michael 13:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention that there's no month called "Shitermonkies" and Salvador Dali's last name was not "Shitface." Also, at the end of the reference list, is the phrase "Bold text PENIS!" I think someone has been having a bit of fun. Also sounds like the site needs to be reverted... VTMarik 19:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The article has been vandalised again by U-666 (talk). Is there a way to request protection for the article while it's featured? Kajmal 21:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Double statment?

Dalí was born at 8:45 a.m. local time in the town of Figueres, in the Empordà region close to the French border in Catalonia, Spain. Concerning his birth, Dalí "was born at his domicile at forty five minutes after eight o'clock on the eleventh day of the present month of May." Seems like a double statment... Perhaps restate/symplify?

I removed the direct quote, since it doesn't contain any new information. I kept the reference, though, to verify the time of birth. 153.104.208.67 20:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who is He?

who is the He in "He was mainly responsible for helping Buñuel write the script for the film." (section 1929 until World War II). Is it the surrealist poet Paul Éluard, as the text suggests or Dalí himself? Doldrums 06:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I figured he was Dalí. It isn't very clear though.

--JordanZed 14:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] about Gala

In the "1929 until World War II" part, the first paragraph says "..., and future wife Gala, born Helena Dmitrievna Deluvina Diakonova, ..." However, the article Gala Dalí has a different description, which is "Gala was born Helena Diakanoff Devulina in Kazan, Tartary, Russia, ..."

While I searched for the correct name on Google, I found that it has both of them, with the former more than the latter. However, it also showed me the name Helena Devulina Diakanoff, which was different from the latter name shown above only in the sequence. As Chinese is my mother tongue, I have no available knowledge of Russian naming rules, therefore I cannot decide which one of the three names is the correct or proper one. I need this information so I can put the right name in the Chinese article on Dalí. Thanks for your help!--Cough [[zh:user talk:cough|Talk]] 09:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Students and appraiser sections

Image:Daliernst.jpg
"Queen Esther" statue donated by artist Ernst Fuchs,Patio of the Teatro-Museo Dali.
Image:Dalifuchsvenosa.jpg
"Dali, Fuchs and Venosa."
Notable students/disciples
  • Ernst Fuchs Fuchs gave Dali the Queen Esther statue for his Museum in Spain.

source: [[2]]

source:[[3]]

  • Mark Ryden, American painter inspired by Dali.
  • Robert Venosa [[4]], Painter who introduced H.R. Giger to Salvador Dali. Venosa was a regular visitor to Dali's villa and became good friends with the Maestro.

source with text and pictures: [[5]]

  • Antonio Roybal,American painter and student of Ernst Fuchs and Jean Claude Gaugy.

source: [[6]]

Dali Appraisers/Authenticators
  • Bernard Ewell, World's foremost authority on Salvador Dali art.

source: [[7]]

These two sections were added to the article by Antonio Roybal. I've followed Roybal around wikipedia, trying to revert the dozens of spam insertions into articles that he's made with User Talk:Vermeer1, User Talk:Ernstfuchs and various IPs. Please see those talk pages for info on the most egregious of his spam cases. Anyway, this is not an NPOV list of students. This is Roybal himself, two of his teachers, Fuchs and Gaugy (see Antonio Roybal), a guy he claimed elsewhere was related to him (Chavez), he's edited Ryden's article, and so on. I think a genuine list of students prepared by someone who was an art historian might be of benefit to Salvador Dalí, although I don't think the article needs it, but definitely not this self-promotional bollocks. And the appraiser section? The guy's a buddy of Roybal's, sure, but what general reader wants to know about an appraiser? Darkspots 21:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


from Vermeer1; I am not antonio...I collect art by Ernst Fuchs, Salvador Dali, Antonio Roybal, Mark Ryden and others. I am brand new to wikipedia (so please be patient..I am being attacked as if I had been a seasoned user..only been on for a month or so.) and did not know it was against policies to add links to sites that are under construction. This user Darkspots who claims that I am antonio..will not divulge his name but has harrassed me by editing each and every edit I have made. I have not tried to revert the so called spam edits..I have left everything the same. The student section was created by someone else, not me! I believe that this section is pertinent. Ernst Fuchs was great friends with Dali and Bernard Ewell is the World's Number one appraiser. This user keeps making claims and needs to relax. I already thanked him for his help..things are getting out of hand. I wish him the best of luck either way. Template:Vermeer1

so finally...I have no hard feeling to you darkspots..I will try and watch what I do from now on. thanks

[edit] His Image

C'mon - not a single, outright mention! The upturned, waxy moustache. The photographs of a tutu-clad and frollicking Dali. Yes, this is all a part of his "eccentric behaviour" but more depth in that respect would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.126.107 (talk) 21:01, 9 December 2006

[edit] Ethnicity

From the personality section, ... famed architect and designer Paul László, who was ethnically Jewish.---You can be ethnically Israeli, or of the Jewish faith, but you can not be ethnically Jewish. There are no ethnic christians etc. This should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.65.230.31 (talk) 15:16, 5 January 2007

I think the consensus is that ethnicity is one important facet of being Jewish. Please see Jew. Darkspots 13:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

This is debatable and referencing another Wiki article hardly proves a point. True, most Jews are of a certain ethnicity, but there are many Ethiopian Jews who are black for example. The point is, religion and genetics are mutually exclusive. A person from any culture, race, nationality, or ethnicity, can be jewish. Just trying to be accurate.213.65.230.31 kl

[edit] Incorrect description of "Crucifixion (Corpus Hypercubus) (1954)"

In the section 1.4 Later years in Catalonia , when describing the painting "Crucifixion (Corpus Hypercubus) (1954)", it is stated that "...a 4-dimensional cube, is featured in the painting..." This is incorrect as a net of a tesseract (hypercube) is featured in the painting. This is backed up by the Tesseracts in art and literature section on the tesseract wikipedia page. Where is is stated: "The painting Crucifixion (Corpus Hypercubus), by Salvador Dalí, 1954, depicts the crucified Jesus upon the net of a hypercube.", I would recommend that the article is adjusted to this description. --Dave 14:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rare painting

Why is there no information or any mentioning of Dali's painting "Female Bodies As A Skull" or sometimes called "Seven Naked Women's Bodies" done around 1947? Dali also partnered with Philippe Halsman around 1951 to create a duplicate photo. Is there any valuable information anywhere on the net and why is this painting so rare that there is nothing on it? I think it is a beautiful piece! I can imagine it being protested against in the 40's as well as some of his other works, but today in our era it ought to be popular enough to have easily available information on it. Someone please advise me of where I can find information on this painting! I have been searching diligently!

I think this paiting and information regarding it ought to be included in the article because it is so rare! --Des 13:52 April 16, 2007

[edit] More on Catalan-Spanish II

With the inclusion of the word Catalan in the nationality of Dali, we are back again at the same issue: using this page to promote a political cause. Please, read my whole initial comment #36 More about Catalan-Spanish. Using brakets now, instead of a dash as before, is just another way of doing it. Besides, since there is no mention or discussion of this change in the this discussion page, it should be considered as an improper edition oposed to the consensus expressed above. Again, the word Catalan should be taken out of the initial sentence and left for the biography section. Otherwise, for the sake of continuity and homogeneity, I suggest or even demand that the same format is then used in the initial description of every single personality, spanish or not, portrayed on Wikipedia. Once more, there is no politics in an encyclopedia. Just accurate facts presented in a non-misleading way.

[edit] Dali Art in the Minneapolis Museum of Art

I was wondering why several of Dali's works that are on display in the MIA are not listed on this page. I would like to add them to make a more complete article.


Specifically one of my favorite: Portrait of Juan de Pareja, the Assistant to Velázquez. http://www.artsmia.org/viewer/detail.php?v=12&id=3291 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rmosler2100 (talk • contribs) 02:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Dali's mother/housegirl?

Regarding the sentence from the first paragraph of the biography:

His father, Salvador Dalí i Cusí, was a middle-class lawyer and notary[6] whose strict disciplinarian approach was tempered by his housegirl, Felipa Domenech Ferres, who encouraged her son's artistic endeavors.

Unless I'm missinterpreting "housegirl", this sentence claims that Dali was the maid's son, or that the maid also had an artistic son, whose endeavors she encouraged? Anrie 13:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It's confusing. I think it may be saying he was influenced by the maid, but someone's incorrectly put in the word "son". --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 09:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I suggest to change the infobox picture to Image:Salvador Dalí 1939.jpg, in my opinion it's not as creepy as the current one. --Andersmusician VOTE 05:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lawsuit

Should be some mention of the incident where he plagiarized a pixellated portrait of Abraham Lincoln right off the cover of Scientific American magazine (see Leon Harmon), and was sued over it... AnonMoos 02:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dali's writing for the Marx brothers and friendship with Harpo Marx

I just thought it should be mentioned somewhere in this article that Salvador Dali knew the Marx brothers. He was friends with Harpo Marx and even wrote a movie for them. This would surely be interesting and relevant to anyone who is interested in Dali. - flipjargendy 14:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

The politics section is subjective because it tries to analyse Orwell's opinion on Dali and calls it misunderstanding. Orwell was clear that he was against moral relativism when it comes to artists. There is no misunderstanding in it. The article should be neutral on this point and not trying to excuse Dali or explain Orwell. --N.N. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.250.170 (talk) 14:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

That's why Wikipedia has "fact" tags. JNW (talk) 15:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


'Secret life' is not a true autobiography, it's a bunch of made up stuff intended to shock and/or amuse. Why anyone would base opinions about the man on this work is beyond me. Technically it should probably not even be referred to as an autobiography, as it is mostly fictional. I would have thought this would be common knowledge after 60+ years LOL24.5.188.169 (talk) 01:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Since Orwell was a wishy washy Socialist, its "perhaps" not neutral to include a line like "One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dalí is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being." Who cares what Orwell thought of Dali? Its irrelevent. - Gennarous (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names

I'm pretty sure that he wasn't called Domingo. As appears in "Salvador Dalí" by Fidel Cordero : " Salvador Felipe Jacinto of full name (Felipe because of his mother "Felipa", and Jacinto was his uncle's third name (uncle Rafael)). I think "Domingo" is a wrong translation of his second surname Doménech, wich he received from his mother. It's just a doubt I have, please correct me if I'm wrong and leave a reference where I can check it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.19.152.235 (talk) 00:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Many google hits, including the biography on Spanish Wikipedia [8], confirm 'Domingo' as part of his full name. JNW (talk) 00:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Orwell's crisitism is portrayed inaccurately

From part 4 Politics and personality section of the Dali article:

"In his critical review of Dalí's autobiography Secret Life, the socialist George Orwell wrote "One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dalí is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being."[67] The misunderstanding probably arises from Dalí's deliberately provocative scorn for the communist leanings of his peers, and the fact that he painted Hitler on more than one occasion.[citation needed]"

This is totally inaccurate as you'll discover if you simply read Orwell's critique here:

Benefit Of Clergy: Some Notes On Salvador Dali: http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/CriticalEssays/salvadordali.html cited at [67] in the wiki article.

George Orwell's criticism is a statement against Dali's own professed acts in his autobiography based on acts ranging from kicking his little sister in the head when she was three years old and he five, to his obsession with necrophilia and other obscene acts and artistic work in the early and middle parts of the 20th century.

Orwell made this statement based on his conclusions about Dali's skills as a painter, which the author praised. However, he also condemns the painter for his perversity, flaunting of immorality and extreme narcissism.

The author also questions the society and its structures that would produce such an artist with such popularity promoting such obscene and perverse actions through art and in life.

This critique was based on much more than any disdain on Orwell's part against communism, or Hitler. As neither are mentioned in the essay itself except only in indirect ways.

An excerpt from the text:

"But if you talk to the kind of person who CAN see Dali’s merits, the response that you get is not as a rule very much better. If you say that Dali, though a brilliant draughtsman, is a dirty little scoundrel, you are looked upon as a savage. If you say that you don’t like rotting corpses, and that people who do like rotting corpses are mentally diseased, it is assumed that you lack the aesthetic sense. Since ‘Mannequin rotting in a taxicab’ is a good composition. And between these two fallacies there is no middle position, but we seldom hear much about it. On the one side KULTURBOLSCHEVISMUS: on the other (though the phrase itself is out of fashion) ‘Art for Art’s sake.’ Obscenity is a very difficult question to discuss honestly. People are too frightened either of seeming to be shocked or of seeming not to be shocked, to be able to define the relationship between art and morals.

It will be seen that what the defenders of Dali are claiming is a kind of BENEFIT OF CLERGY. The artist is to be exempt from the moral laws that are binding on ordinary people. Just pronounce the magic word ‘Art’, and everything is O.K.: kicking little girls in the head is O.K.; even a film like L’Age d’Or is O.K. * It is also O.K. that Dali should batten on France for years and then scuttle off like rat as soon as France is in danger. So long as you can paint well enough to pass the test, all shall be forgiven you.

One can see how false this is if one extends it to cover ordinary crime. In an age like our own, when the artist is an altogether exceptional person, he must be allowed a certain amount of irresponsibility, just as a pregnant woman is. Still, no one would say that a pregnant woman should be allowed to commit murder, nor would anyone make such a claim for the artist, however gifted. If Shakespeare returned to the earth to-morrow, and if it were found that his favourite recreation was raping little girls in railway carriages, we should not tell him to go ahead with it on the ground that he might write another King Lear. And, after all, the worst crimes are not always the punishable ones. By encouraging necrophilic reveries one probably does quite as much harm as by, say, picking pockets at the races. One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other. The first thing that we demand of a wall is that it shall stand up. If it stands up, it is a good wall, and the question of what purpose it serves is separable from that. And yet even the best wall in the world deserves to be pulled down if it surrounds a concentration camp. In the same way it should be possible to say, ‘This is a good book or a good picture, and it ought to be burned by the public hangman.’ Unless one can say that, at least in imagination, one is shirking the implications of the fact that an artist is also a citizen and a human being."


This entire section of the article needs to be rewritten in my opinion. The way it is worded now is entirely misleading, and easily refuted.

I welcome discussion on this important part of the article, and on George Orwell's well written critique of Dali which I tend to agree with.

The wiki could be well improved here I believe.

Graphic lucidity (talk) 05:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


Well spotted, though it doesn't surprise me that the subversives have tried to twist such a thing and use Wikipedia to try and attack a person's legacy. Clearly the review has nothing to do with Dalí's stance on Franco, despite the fact that in this article its been made to look as so. The whole sentence should just be removed.
Any case, I don't think Dalí was really a fascist, if I had to hedge a bet.. I'd say he was an anarchist. The unfortunate thing about the artform he was part of is, so many of them are boring communists and PC socialists. The mere fact that Dali didn't care at all what his so called "peers" though of him, to the point that he'd try to get under the skin of boring communist/athiests like Breton by pretending to be a fascist is hillarious to me and a testament to Dalí greatness. - Gennarous (talk) 04:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dali's Fascism status is incorrect

The statements about Salvador Dali being fascist are incorrect. Please see "Surrealism and the Spanish Civil War", by Robin Greeley, Yale Univ. Press, 2006. p. 55. Dali himself proclaims that he is not fascist, or Hitlerian (p.55).

It is true that fascism held a particular fascination for Dali, but this fascination was more due to his eccentric nature, and relationship to Freudian sexuality - which he associated with narcisist in Nazisim. However, Dali studied these as an artist. Robin Greeley (above ref.) shows that Dali was not fascist himself. Dali says "I am hitlerian neither in fact nor in intention". Dali was tried before the original surrealists (Breton, etc), in question of his views of surrealism, but this result was not conclusive of him as a fascist (p.51-89). None the less, his views differed enough from theirs that they separated themselves from him.

Specifically, this paragraph is wrong:

"Instead of condemning Hitler as his fellow surrealists, Dalí developed an obsessive interest in what he called "the Hitler phenomenon" which was frowned upon by his predominantly Marxist surrealist colleagues. Then, when Francisco Franco came to power in the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War, Dalí was one of the few Spanish intellectuals supportive of the new regime[30] which eventually resulted in his official expulsion from the surrealist group.[23] At this, Dalí retorted, "I myself am surrealism."[18] André Breton coined the anagram "avida dollars" (for Salvador Dalí), which more or less translates to "eager for dollars,"[31] by which he referred to Dalí after the period of his expulsion. The surrealists henceforth spoke of Dalí in the past tense, as if he was dead. At this stage his main patron was the very wealthy Edward James. The surrealist movement and various members thereof (such as Ted Joans) would continue to issue extremely harsh polemics against Dalí until the time of his death and beyond."

It suggests Dali was supportive of Fascism, which is not true. He was "obsessively interested" , and it was frowned upon by other surrealists, but he proclaimed himself not to be fascist (*see note below). Greeley shows that in his works, e.g. The Enigma of Hitler (1939), Dali portrays Hitler as a "tiny dictator" (p.83), and demonstrate "it clearly deviates from fascist constructions of paternal authority as wholesome and positive", the image fascism wished to portray. In other words, Dali is questioning, challenging fascism in his painting. Dali's fascinations with capitalism, fascism, and Freudian sexuality are all related to an interest in understanding greed and desire. To Breton, original surrealism was about political change, so he could not understand Dali's interest in these things (thus referring to Dali as "eager for dollars"). Yet neither his work, nor his speech, suggest Dali was actually fascist.

The sentence "Dali was one of the few Spanish intellectuals supportive of the new regime [30]" - actually appears no where in the reference it uses! In fact, the sentences "[Dali].. did not openly side with the Republic or with the fascist regime." and "Dalí preferred to remain apolitical" DO appear in that same reference [30].

This paragraph is also ridiculous:

"Dalí, having returned to the Catholic faith and increasingly religious as time went on, was almost certainly referring to the communists, socialists and anarchists who had killed almost 7,000 priests and nuns during the Spanish Civil War. Dalí sent telegrams to Franco, "praising him for signing death warrants for political prisoners.[37]"

The reference [37], by Vincente Navarro, is an article in Counterpunch - known for alternative opinions, not fact. Navarro is not an authority on surrealist art history. That article [37], provides no references itself, neither to direct works of Dali, nor to historical sources on Dali. None of the facts it states, which are clearly opinionated, have sources.

I would change these myself, but the page appears to be locked.

Referring to the last discussion above, and the comment: "The mere fact that Dali didn't care at all what his so called "peers" though of him, to the point that he'd try to get under the skin of boring communist/athiests like Breton by pretending to be a fascist is hillarious to me and a testament to Dalí greatness.".

This is pure speculation. Dali never "pretended to be fascist". He was obsessed with understanding particular forms of greed and desire, which included fascism. Did he intentionally study these to upset Breton? Also, what is "boring" about Breton? Miro, Breton, Masson and others developed the original surrealism, called "automatic drawing", in order to denounce the military coup d'etat of the Spanish Civil War. Hardly boring. (Ref: Andre Breton, "The Manifestos of Surrealism" and Robin Greeley, Ch. 1).. Of course, this was a side comment, not on the article page itself. The best way to show Dali's greatness is not to exaggerate or make up facts about him, but to be accurate.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.35.182 (talk) 09:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

My contact info: Rama Hoetzlein, rch@umail.ucsb.edu

Boring is an "artist" automatically being a leftist and anti-church. Is so passé, expected and yawn inspiring. Leftists whinging about "the man" are generally, the most boring people on earth... Dali would have being doing a diservice to the truely unique person he was if he bowed down and lowered himself to the leftist atheism elitism which runs through the arts like a virus. - Gennarous (talk) 19:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you read Surrealism and the Spanish Civil War (Robin Greeley) and Dada & Surrealism (Matthew Gale). This is simple a matter of reading and understanding the historic facts. The true picture is much more complex than the duality you create between the "left" and the "right". -Rama, 28 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.35.182 (talk) 07:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


  • note - One meaning of becoming "obsessed with" means to take on the nature of a thing for study, but not necessary to become that thing. For example, as when Clarice begins to think like Hannibal Lechter in Silence of the Lambs. She becomes able to catch Bill (the serial killer in the film), by thinking like him, but does not become criminal herself.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.38.52.54 (talk) 07:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Dali should be mentioned as purely a surrealist artist. While many of his works are surrealist, even to the point that some argue that he had no masterpieces after he was "expelled" from the movement, I believe he had plenty of relevant paintings in the Pop Art and Cubist movements as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.61.31.67 (talk) 21:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)