Talk:Sally Hemings
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] | ||
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Virginia, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Virginia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. | ||
| Start | This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
||
Older talk material has been moved to Talk:Sally Hemings/archive; massive imported flamewars and a discussion of whether or not to include the stuff on Joe Ellis (consensus was "yes".) Sdedeo 18:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Descendants
There is rather more information on Hemings's descendants than Hemings herself. One interesting tidbit I came across once and forgot to bookmark was that Madison Hemings two sons were prisoners held by the confederacy in the civil war, and either their brother or cousin attempted to enlist in the confederate army in order to resuce them. Anyone know of a source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riverbythebridge (talk • contribs) 04:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Context of Tom Woodson
As a casual reader dropping by and reading this article for the first time, I find the material concerning Tom Woodson very confusing. He is first mentioned in the Callender section, with no explanation about who the Woodson family is, or any context for fitting him in to the big picture. There is also some potential for confusion about whether this is or is not "Thomas Eston Hemings", in the list of the six Hemings children, or someone else entirely. Since I'm not an expert in this material, I don't have any suggestions, but I thought it would be worth contributing the views of a first-timer on reading this article. I know it's hard for someone familiar with the material to see things from this viewpoint. Keep up the good work, I found the article otherwise to be very informative.XenonofArcticus (talk) 17:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sources
There is some very POV material in this article. Has anyone bothered to read the article used for reference 2? This is not a legitimate source. The article is a diatribe that is not published anywhere except on some blog. The author even says so. "Stix provides news and commentary on the realities of race, education, and urban life that are censored by the mainstream media and education elites." That is pretty standard fair for extremists, only they can see the "realities". This guy Stix rails on about a lack of evidence but then hypocritically does not include references to his sources in his criticism; therefore anything written by Stix is non-verifiable and should be dismissed as POV. Just because its one step away from Wikipedia doesn't make verifiable, and Stix certainly has a ax to grind.
This is a topic that by its nature is a controversy and it should be presented as such, with criticisms from both sides presented. Right now Stix's highly suspect and non-referenced opinion is used directly in the piece. Moomot 00:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- This blog should not be used as a source. Stix is not a historian so the exception for experts doesn't apply. -Will Beback · † · 21:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- "An award-winning journalist, Stix provides news and commentary on the realities of race, education, and urban life that are censored by the mainstream media and education elites. His work has appeared in the (New York) Daily News, New York Post, Washington Times, Newsday, the American Enterprise, weekly standard, Insight, Chronicles, Ideas on Liberty, Middle American News, Front Page Magazine, Academic Questions, CampusReports, and countless other publications." Yakuman (数え役満) 21:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
-
- None of that makes him an authority on 18th-century history. -Will Beback · † · 01:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sam's Claims
Sam -- you keep putting a link to your book on Thomas Jefferson, claiming that it is famous and renowned, but I was unable to find it on any library catalog, including the Library of Congress. I have once again removed the link; please wait until someone else comes along to weigh in on its importance. Thanks, Sdedeo (tips) 20:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Sdedeo wants an edit war. My found in the US Linrary of Congress, but every book since then has been based on my book. This Wikipedia page about Sally Hemings contains numerous examples of discoveries made by me which appeared first in my book in 1992. I recommend that Sdedeo take a look at my book (which is available on Amazon and elsewhere) and he will see right away that just about everything he knows about Sally Hemings is based upon my research. Sam Sloan 13:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sam, I can't find the book on amazon; can you provide a link? In the meantime, please do not refer to good-faith edits as "vandalism". Thanks, Sdedeo (tips) 17:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
You did not look very hard. Try http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1881373029 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/4906574009
It has been printed twice and will go into its third printing in a few weeks. Sam Sloan 00:01, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
This is wrong: "In the late 1800s biographers who interviewed Thomas Jefferson's descendants by his wife Martha published their suggestions that either Peter or Samuel Carr fathered the Hemings children." The interview of T.J. Randolph by the biographer Henry Randall took place in the 1850s but Randolph did not want his Carr allegation made public; that information was not published until 1951.
[edit] Nevertheless, through the quirks of history and biology, only one set of Americans can show both that their ancestor was born at Monticello and that they share a Y chromosome with the Jefferson...
What is the basis for this indcendiary claim? Numerous of Jefferson's descendents could presumably satisfy this test. BulldogPete 22:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Jefferson had only one legitimate child who survived to maturity, a daughter, Martha Wayles Skelton. She did not inherit his Y chromosome. Gnosticdogma 16:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is incorrect. Jefferson's daughter Martha had children and her descendants survive to this day. VirginiaProp 14:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
-
- Jefferson had two daughters and neither one of them was named Martha Wayles Skelton. That was his wife's name. There are descendants alive today from his younger daughter Maria Jefferson Eppes. Most descendants of Thomas Jefferson are through his oldest daughter. Her name was Martha Jefferson Randolph. There are descendants of Peter Jefferson that have the same DNA as Thomas Jefferson and there are descendants of his brother Field Jefferson that have this DNA. There is no set of Americans. Only one man had the same DNA. The rest of the Hemings descendants either have different male line DNA or have no male line DNA to test. Welsh4ever76 20:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
If Sally Hemmings was a quadroon or octoroon, how can she be considered black? She was a slave by descent, but she was more white than black. Even if she did have children by Thomas Jefferson, these children would most likely be pretty indistinguishable from typical white people (hence the fact that [at least?] three of them lived as free white persons). So the question is if Thomas Jefferson did father Sally's children, did he violate his principles by miscegenating?--68.54.154.79 04:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sally Hemmings can be considered black for the purposes of miscegenation in the 18th century because of the one-drop theory. Regardless of her race, she was indisputably a slave. One would hope, however, that whomever did father her children was able to do so without violating his own principles, or at the very least, was able to rationalize them away. Gnosticdogma 20:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Number of Children
I changed this entry to five children. Going by Thomas Jefferson's farm books there is not an entry for a son born in 1789 or 1790. He only records five children ever being born to Sally Hemings. There is a letter in which he talks about a child being born to Maria's maid but it is now thought that this was a different slave. Officially there are only five children recorded, a daughter Harriet born in 1795 who died about two years later, a son named Beverly who was born in 1798, a daughter named Harriet who was born in 1801, a son named Madison born in 1805 and a son named Eston born in 1808.Welsh4ever76 17:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- I thought that I would copy and paste the revert notation by Bww1 According to 1996 Thomas Jefferson Foundation publication, Slavery at Monticello, Hemings produced seven children. No dispute about two early deaths. Timing of one death is in dispute. I wanted to explain that they have now updated that at their website http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/appendixh.html . The consensus is that two daughters previously thought to be Sally Hemings were actually the daughters of someone else. Both Edy and Thenia were not her children but have been mistaken to have been. Thomas Woodson may not have been her son and there is no record of him or a child being born at that time. They list six children on their website but I think to be on the safe side wiki should only list the five children that are known. Welsh4ever76 20:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey, just dropping by to say "well done" for this work. Sdedeo (tips) 21:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Number of Children
So, Welsh4ever went to the Thomas Jefferson Foundation's (TJF) 1996 publication to find out that it stated that Sally Hemings produced seven children. The children are listed there. Now the TJF has changed its mind. Do you ever wonder why Jeffersonian historians keep changing their positions regarding this aspect of American history? If they keep changing their minds, what is the real story? What are they dodging? And since they keep changing their story how do they retain any credibility?
What Welsh4ever and the TJF have not acknowledged is that Thomas Jefferson wrote the name of his son, Thomas, in the Farm Book, which he wrote with his own hand. Welsh4ever should go to Boston to witness the erasure in person, although the printed version of the Farm Book clearly acknowledges the existence of the erasure of a male slave, born in 1790. Welsh4ever should have expressed disappointment and outrage regarding the mutilation of the Farm Book long ago. The Farm Book is a priceless piece of American history. It is one of the most valuable documents Americans have to gain an understanding of American history. It was written by one of the greatest Americans. Nevertheless, it has been mutilated several times by persons who do not like the history Thomas Jefferson recorded. In addition to erasures, certain pages have been ripped out. Of course historians and curators, who are stewards for the physical items that Thomas Jefferson left behind have not commented on the mutilations or protected items from further mutilation. Historians construct their version of American history using such mutilations as shields. If the records that Thomas Jefferson had been left in tact, then historians like Andrew Berstein and Joshua Rothman would have to frame their history as Thomas Jefferson would have or, in fact, did write it. Robert C. Baron (Ed.), The Garden and Farm Books of Thomas Jefferson, (Golden, CO, Fulcrum, 1987), 247.
In 1999 Rothman wrote that, "Hemings herself claimed this child died shortly after being born." How does he know that? Hemings did not leave letters or a diary. No one that lived in her time quoted a single word that she spoke. Rothman could not have interviewed Sally Hemings, as she died over 100 years before he was born. I'm glad that I did not attend the University of Virginia. If I had I might be as confused as Rothman as to how to record and recite the historic record. His work is a disgrace. That error is not the only abomination in his 1999 article. Why the frantic attempt to kill off Sally Hemings' child over 100 years after he died? And why the hyper-energetic attempt to make Sally Hemings into a white woman? Even Joe "Full Metal Jacket" Ellis went on television to claim, "she was mighty nar white." Nar?? Why, she used to be called 'Black Sal.'
Speaking of Ellis and hyper-energy. Dr. Foster told the DNA participants that the historians would not be involved with the DNA process. In his words, it would be, "lifted from the historians to create objective evidence." Well, Foster was out of the loop and Ellis was all in the soup, when the reported DNA results were reported. Ellis was in the soup prior to the public release, oops, that is, leak. Remember? Two days before the mid-term election, just in time. Why, what a coincidence. Remember, the unscienticfic report that Nature was forced to "clarify."
Anyway, Welsh4ever did a little homework. By golly, that's the solution. Well, almost. Now we have to teach Rothman and Andrew "[He didn't] imagine Africa" Berstein which end of the pencil is the one that writes.
It will be interesting to hear whether Welsh4ever expresses praise for the mutilation of Thomas Jefferson's Farm Book or disgust. -- If the (male, 1790) erasure was literally complete, then we would not know that there was an erasure, so.. what name ends with a Y? bww1
- I have stated numerous times on the Thomas Jefferson talk page that I disagreed with the way the DNA testing was handled. It really did nothing to answer any question except that Thomas Woodson is not a descendant of Field Jefferson and Eston Hemings may be a descendant of Field Jefferson. The rest is assumption and while it may be correct it was never proof of anything concerning Thomas Jefferson.
- I have heard of the erasure in the 1790 farm book. It is very suspicious because indeed Thomas Jefferson himself was not known to erase things but cross out names with a single line. I have seen scans of some of these pages and have noticed other things wrong with them. That being said....it is unclear who did the erasures, scribbles and tearing out of pages and why they did so. I have heard historians, his family and souvenir seekers all be blamed for the mysterious condition. Making a big conspiracy out of it is pointless and frankly disingenuous because we do not know what exactly happened.
- We have to go by what we do know. Thomas Jefferson only recorded five children being born to Sally Hemings in his farm books. Thenia may have been the daughter of another couple. There had been other children listed with her that were not her daughters. The bottomline is that we should stick to what we know and be cautious of taking guesses because that just clouds what the truth may be. Welsh4ever76 20:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Introduction
I was reading this, and its title is "Hemings", but in the article, she is repeatedly refered to as "Hennings." I don't know which is right, but it really needs to be cleared up.
I checked the archive and didn't see anything about this, so hopefully I'm not bringing up a previously discussed-to-death topic. That said, the intro doesn't actually explain why she is in Wikipedia. The intro describes her as TJs chambermaid, which is true, but not important. We don't have articles on every president's chambermaid. The reason she is well known is because many people think that she and TJ had children. So I added "who may have had one or more children with Thomas Jefferson." to the first sentence. If someone can come up with better wording (alleged, supposedly, etc. sounded wrong to me) please do so.
JEFFERSON THE FATHER OF SALLY HEMINGS' CHILDREN?
Actually, I don't see how you're ever going to prove it. Any DNA evidence could just as easily nail Tom Jefferson's brother Randolph as Tom himself. And remember that the guy who first said it was Tom Jefferson was a notorious Federalist scandal monger.
BILL CLINTON AND SALLY HEMMINGS?
What exactly does Bill Clinton have to do with Sally Hemmings, other than the fact that the DNA study was released during his presidency? If you want to include it, create an article called the 'Jefferson DNA controversy'. It's questionable as to whether he should be mentioned all, and certainly nothing more than a footnote.
I haven't removed the content, but I have placed it at the bottom of the page as I feel it's more of a footnote than anything else.
