Talk:Sally Hemings/archive

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Am I being too hard on Joseph Ellis? --Ed Poor

You are not being nearly hard ENOUGH on Ellis, the notorious concoctor of lies about his military service (among other prevarications).

There probably should be discussion in this article about some interesting background to the "Tom Jefferson had black kids" canard floating around now (sadly, most people "know" he had such children). First, the man who started circulating rumors about Tom's supposed African-American offspring was James Callender -- a man who had tried to strongarm Jefferson into appointing him Postmaster of Richmond. Spurned, Callendar let fly with the accusations.

This was in 1802.

Note that Tom HAS BEEN CLEARED BY THE DNA TESTS OF FATHERING ANY CHILD BEFORE ESTON (this is not to say he fathered the latter, but that this was the only child it is scientifically possible that he DID father).

Thus, the vaunted "oral traditions" that had Thomas Woodson -- the child of whom Callendar was speaking in 1802 -- as a son of TJ WERE DEFINITELY, DEMONSTRABLY WRONG as was Callendar.

I really think this article could usefully be expanded.

Thanks.

"The Y chromosomal haplotype of the Carr family was found to be different from the Jefferson haplotype."

If the Carrs were descended through Jefferson's sister, as the article claims, isn't this to be expected? Perhaps the article meant to state that the Carr haplotype was found to be different from the Hemings haplotype? Or is the intent to rule out ambiguity between the Jefferson and Carr haplotypes? --Peter Farago 06:15, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi all -- I came across this article, and I have done some major reworkings of the discussion of the controversy. Most importantly, I have included information about the Thomas Jefferson Foundation report, which was missing; this was a major report, comissioned by the people who run TJ's library and Montecello. With regard to the Jefferson-Hemings Scholars Commission, the article originally stated that it was comissioned by the "Thomas Jefferson Historical Society" -- I have been unable to find any evidence of the existence of this society outside of wiki mirrors of this article.

Secondly, there was some minor OR that I deleted; I also eliminated some quotations in favor of just reporting where the phrasing was unimportant.

I'm still going around filling in sources. Sdedeo 22:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Ah, found the second report. It was commissioned by the "Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society", and I've found the report online. I've included this information, and quoted the report's stated conclusion. Sdedeo 22:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

More edits. I have created sections so that the chronology of the controversy is clearer, and also to sort of "separate out" the Ellis stuff from the rest (IMO, the Ellis/impeachment thing is notable, but it does not have much to do with the serious scholarly studies of the question.) The Ellis thing is notable for demonstrating how important people think this question is for the "Jefferson legacy". Sdedeo 22:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Unrelated May-June 2005 debate re: Hemmings moved from Talk:Martin Luther King, Jr.

The [Martin Luther King, Jr.] article addresses King's marital infidelity. If you want an exposé, then I suggest you go elsewhere. It's not a primary focus of this article -- any more than Jefferson's gaggle of half-white children by his slave Sally Hemmings (who was his wife's half-sister, by the way; how sick is that?) is the primary focus of his article on Wikipedia. In fact, the article barely mentions it. Nor does it address the hypocrisy of Jefferson's words in the Declaration of Independence, his racism/white supremacy. All in all, I'd say the article on King is very fair. deeceevoice 13:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the reason why Thomas Jefferson's children with Hemmings aren't mentioned is that he had none.

To quote our own Wikipedia:

In 2000, a group of experts commissioned by the Thomas Jefferson Historical Society formed the Jefferson-Hemings Scholars Commission and conducted a substantial examination of the paternity question, examining the full range of scholarly, scientific, and historical evidence. On April 12, 2001, they issued a 565-page report detailing their findings. Their near-unanimous (one dissenting member) conclusion was that almost certainly Jefferson did not have a sexual relationship with Hemings and fathered neither Eston nor any of her other children. Rather, they suggest the most likely alternative is that Randolph Jefferson, Thomas's younger brother, was the father of Eston.

Sixpackshakur 03:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC) ---

Since when did "our own Wikipedia" -- written by any Tom, Dick or Harry with access to a computer with a modem -- become anywhere near infallible? Hell, when I first came to Wikipedia, "motherfucker" was supposed to be something slaves called their white fathers instead of "daddy." ROTFLMBAO. Kinda funny dat. It's my experience that a great many articles on this web site treating blacks and black history and culture should be taken with one honking block of salt.
Hogwash. It's simply revisionist history. Jefferson's liaisons w/Hemmings were well known even in his day. He was often the subject of gossip and the butt of jokes because of his fondness for his black "wench" and his gaggle of half-white "pickaninnys." It's a matter of historical record -- something which is mentioned in the writings of several authors who've written about Jefferson over the years. 'S matter of fact, when I was in college, I dated one of Jefferson's descendants. Bottom line: the hypocrite had a taste for dark meat. This issue has been bolstered, in fact, with DNA testing and is reinforced by other historical evidence -- including such well-documented accounts contemporaneous with Jefferson's life. The excuses about Jefferson's brother just don't wash. Almost everyone with any credibility is now accepting of the fact of Thomas Jefferson's half-white offspring, including some of Jefferson's white descendants. Here's a smattering of URLs from just one page of a google search. (It took all of three seconds to turn up.):
In Jefferson's time, it was common practice for white men to rape their black slaves. What? Because he was a "statesman" and helped write the Declaration of Independence," he's supposed to be some kind of saint? He also wrote that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed" -- blah, blah, blah. Uh-huh. And how many who attended the Constitutional Convention owned or managed plantations or large farms with slave ecomomies, or owned slaves? Answer: at least a dozen. How many derived their wealth and status in some way from the slave trade? A hell of a lot more. The hypocrisy of that bunch is simply a given. Amazing that some people still refuse to believe what has been proven time and again by highly reputable scientific and historical inquiry. If white men had kept their hands (and other body parts) off black women, there wouldn't have been so many "mulatto" and "high yellow" black folks walkin' around back in the day. deeceevoice 08:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry to see your virulent anti-white racism has blinded you to the truth. As you may be aware, and as you have hinted at, most black Americans are about 25% European stock, so your ignorant hatred is directed at your own ancestors. Your citing opinion pieces of bigots, non-scientists and ignoramuses proves nothing.
Thomas Jefferson was the subject of rumours promulgated by a man -- Thomas Callendar -- whom he had refused to hire as the Postmaster of Richmond. Spurned, Callendar let fly with the accusations.
This was in 1802. Eston was born in 1808.
Note that Tom HAS BEEN CLEARED BY THE DNA TESTS OF FATHERING ANY CHILD BEFORE ESTON (this is not to say he fathered the latter, but that this was the only child it is scientifically possible that he DID father).
Thus, the vaunted "oral traditions" that had Thomas Woodson -- the child of whom Callendar was speaking in 1802 -- as a son of TJ WERE DEFINITELY, DEMONSTRABLY WRONG as was Callendar. REPEAT: The claims that he fathered kids as early as 1802 ARE WRONG.
Even the Monticello Foundation, which is headed by a black revisionist, and which released the now-discredited Jefferson-fathered-Hemings's-kids report now says " The Foundation encourages its visitors and patrons, based on what evidence does exist, to make up their own minds as to the true nature of the relationship." So they are backpedalling fast enough to make Lance Armstrong's head spin.
To quote from a source other than wikipedia:
In 2000, the newly formed Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society asked a group of more than a dozen senior scholars from across the country to carefully examine all of the evidence for and against the allegations that Thomas Jefferson fathered one or more children by Sally Hemings, one of his slaves, and to issue a public report. In April 2001, after a year of study, the Scholars Commission issued the most detailed report to date on the issue.
With but a single mild dissent, the views of the distinguished panel ranged from "serious skepticism" to a conviction that the allegation was "almost certainly false."
http://www.cap-press.com/books/1179
Sixpackshakur 15:59, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

"Virulent, anti-white racism"? lol I challenge you to find a single thing I've said that is "racist." Just plain speak. Your reaction is typical. When black folks speak bluntly about matters of race and racism in this country, one of the first things so many whites do is they wanna holler "racism." Maybe you should go look the word up -- but I wouldn't necessarily advise you to do so on Wikipedia. :p

Note that the information I referenced from several sources postdates 2000. And, no. You're just flat-out wrong. Callendar didn't originate the rumors of Thomas creeping around at night to assert his "privileges" as lord and master over Hemmings, who -- again -- was his wife's half-sister (disgusting). Locals and Washingtonians, as well, were already abuzz with whispers about the little light, bright "pickaninnys" on the Jefferson plantation who looked just like him. You should visit the official website of Monticello. Not even the preservers of Jefferson's vaunted memory can flat-out deny the allegations. In fact, the site itself offers some pretty damning information on the controversy, concluding with some lame statement about how they 'urge the public to educate themselves and make up their own minds.' Hilarious! :D

Time to get with the times, bwoi, 'n' catch up. :p

And, yep. You're right. I've got an old craKKKer, leacherous, peg-legged, Irish rapist for a great-grandfather and only God knows how many others in the family woodpile. Do I hate him? (That's funny.) Please. I never knew the motherf***** -- of course, I mean that in a purely Wiki way. :p deeceevoice 18:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

You have consistently misspelled "Hemings" throughout your diatribes, as well as accepting uncritically a largely-discredited canard in addition to picking up unquestioningly every bit of libel that has been used to tar Jefferson. Furthermore, there is at least as convincing a case that Sally was the granddaughter of an Englishman as that she was Jefferson's wife's half-sister:
According to Madison Hemings, Sally's mother, Elizabeth Hemings (1735-1807), was the daughter of an African woman and an English sea captain. http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html
Monticello.org are primarily the ones who ran with the "Jefferson and Sally" story, and now no longer stick with it, as I pointed out above. They have consistently slandered him in this matter.
Here was their original statement:
"It likely will take newly uncovered historical evidence or scientific methods still unknown to determine beyond doubt the truth about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, and the complete story may never be known. The Thomas Jefferson Foundation stands by its original findings - that the weight of evidence suggests that Jefferson probably was the father of Eston Hemings and perhaps the father of all of Sally Hemings' children."
Here is what they NOW say:
"Although the relationship between Jefferson and Sally Hemings has been for many years, and will surely continue to be, a subject of intense interest to historians and the public, the evidence is not definitive, and the complete story may never be known. The Foundation encourages our visitors and patrons, based on what evidence does exist, to make up their own minds as to the true nature of the relationship."
Can you say "backpedal?" I have seldom seen such a stirring example of it.
In May 2000 a group of Jefferson admirers established the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society to reassess the evidence for the Hemings affair, and this collection of essays called The Jefferson-Hemings Myth is the result of their work. Taken together they are a careful summation of all we know, as well as an account of the recklessness and deceit of those who promoted the miscegenation story. As this book clearly shows, the DNA testing disproved the oldest and most persistent accusation against Jefferson, and suggested only that some male in the Jefferson line was the father of the last of Sally Hemings’ children. It paints a devastating portrait of an American intellectual class hungering to crucify Jefferson.[1]
I should note that persons who claim descent of Sally Hemings are not welcome at the Monticello Association, a group comprised of descendents of TJ:
In May 2002 the Monticello Association (descendants of Thomas Jefferson) voted to not admit descendants of Sally Hemings into their organization. The decision came after their careful review of all available information resulting in the conclusion that there was not sufficient evidence to prove Jefferson fathered Hemings' children. [2]
Note that there ARE black Americans in the Association, just not those down from the spurious Hemings line.
Oral tradition states that the "yellow children" at Monticello were the offspring of Randolph Jefferson. [3]
So Callendar didn't originate the claims? So people were speaking about Jeff having fathered Hemings's children before 1802? Guess what? Science has conclusively proved that NO JEFFERSON could have fathered ANY of SH's children before Eston in 1808. Those rumours? PATENTLY FALSE.
Note too, that Jefferson denied the claims of his dalliances, acknowledging only a relationship with a certain Mrs. Walker (one wonders if Dr. King could have denied his dalliances to Coretta with the working girls of many cities):
"You will perceive that I plead guilty to one of their charges, that when young and single I offered love to a handsome lady. I acknowledge its incorrectness. It is the only one founded in truth among all their allegations against me." --Thomas Jefferson to Robert Smith, July 1, 1805. (DM 1:448)

More:

"I should have fancied myself half guilty, had I condescended to put pen to paper in refutation of their falsehoods, or drawn them respect by any notice from myself." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, June 20, 1816.
Your side lost. Sounds like it's about time you got with the times and admitted you were wrong. :( I will at least take some solace in the fact that, having been badly beaten in this debate has forced you actually to question a lie you were only too willing to accept. Sixpackshakur 19:17, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Jefferson's half-black children: a response

Yes, I misspelled Hemings' name. A slip. The way some people may occasionally misspell Frederick Douglass' name (though they know better). And your point?

You stated that Callendar made accusations against Jefferson. My point was that the accusations existed before Callendar made his charges; he was not the only one, so the charges were not necessarily politically motivated -- as was your clear suggestion.

Regarding the dates of the birth of Hemings' children, there is no reason to believe that Hemings was Jefferson's only black "wench." He was a slaveholder with lots of black women upon whom he could force himself had he taken a notion to do so. That such rumors existed before he likely began a relationship with Hemings simply indicates that Jefferson's purported conduct fits a common pattern of the time: black slaves often were used to satisfy the sexual appetites of whites. One black wench was pretty much as good as another.

Further, you neglected to mention that, as the Monticello Foundation states:

  • "Although there had been rumors of a sexual relationship between Jefferson and a slave before 1802, Callender's article spread the story widely. It was taken up by Jefferson's Federalist opponents and was published in many newspapers during the remainder of Jefferson's presidency."

The following are other statements from the Monticello Foundation web site regarding the Hemings controversy that lend strong credence to the contention that Jefferson fathered Hemings' children:

  • "Over the years ... belief in a Thomas Jefferson-Sally Hemings relationship was perpetuated in private. Two of her children - Madison and Eston - indicated that Jefferson was their father, and this belief has been relayed through generations of their descendants as an important family truth." (an account of one of Jefferson's sons follows later)
  • "That a Jefferson-Hemings relationship could be neither refuted nor substantiated was challenged in 1998 by the results of DNA tests conducted by Dr. Eugene Foster and a team of geneticists. The study - which tested Y-chromosomal DNA samples from male-line descendants of Field Jefferson (Thomas Jefferson's uncle), John Carr (grandfather of Jefferson's Carr nephews), Eston Hemings, and Thomas C. Woodson - indicated a genetic link between the Jefferson and Hemings descendants. The results of the study established that an individual carrying the male Jefferson Y chromosome fathered Eston Hemings (born 1808), the last known child born to Sally Hemings."'
  • "Shortly after the DNA test results were released in November 1998, the Thomas Jefferson Foundation formed a research committee consisting of nine members of the foundation staff, including four with Ph.D.s. In January 2000, the committee reported its finding that the weight of all known evidence - from the DNA study, original documents, written and oral historical accounts, and statistical data - indicated a high probability that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Eston Hemings, and that he was perhaps the father of all six of Sally Hemings' children listed in Monticello records - Harriet (born 1795; died in infancy); Beverly (born 1798); an unnamed daughter (born 1799; died in infancy); Harriet (born 1801); Madison (born 1805); and Eston (born 1808)."

This from the Thompson-Gale web site (a respected company specializing in reference and source materials for public schools and universities):

  • "In January 2000, the committee reached the conclusion that Foster's 1998 DNA study was valid; that taken along with historical evidence, it showed not only that Jefferson was probably the father of Eston Hemings, but in all likelihood he was also the father of Harriet and Edy (the two deceased infants), Beverly, Harriet, and Madison; and that the paternity of Thomas Woodson is unclear. The president of the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Foundation added the question on many historians' minds: "Whether it was love or lust, rape or romance, no one knows and it's unlikely that we will ever know."

Also from Thompson-Gale, an account from one of Jefferson's children by Sally Hemings this verbatim excerpt:

Jefferson and Hemings in Paris

In September of 1782, Martha Jefferson died, leaving Thomas Jefferson a widower at the age of thirty-nine, and the father of two girls, Martha (about to turn ten years old) and Maria (four years old). In 1784 Thomas Jefferson was sent as a diplomat to France by the American colonial government. James Hemings went with him. Jefferson's eldest daughter Martha joined him in Paris a short time later, and was enrolled in a convent school for a formal education. In 1787 Jefferson sent for his other daughter, Maria, who made the voyage from Virginia escorted by Sally Hemings, who was either fourteen or fifteen at the time.

It is impossible for historians to say with any certainty exactly what happened in Paris between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Legally, Sally Hemings was a free person in Paris, and so was her brother James, as slavery had been abolished in France. While in France, Jefferson paid Sally and James a monthly salary for their services. James Hemings, with Jefferson's support, apprenticed under French cooks and became a skilled chef.

One historical witness

In the fall of 1789, Jefferson and his two daughters, as well as Sally and James Hemings, returned to America. By all accounts, Sally Hemings was visibly pregnant at the time of their homecoming to Monticello. Many years later, in 1873, Madison Hemings (1805-77), the sixth child of Sally Hemings, described the circumstances of his mother's return from Paris. Madison is considered the most important historical witness in this story by some, but others point to minor errors and inconsistencies in his rendering of the facts. His account was published in the Pike County Republican, a newspaper in Ohio. The following excerpt from Madison's published story sheds light on his mother's trip to France and its result:

Their stay (my mother's and Maria's) was just about eighteen months [it was really twenty-six months]. But during that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson's concubine, and when he was called back home she was enciente [pregnant] by him. He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so, he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promises, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father.

Promises kept

Between 1790 and 1808, Sally Hemings gave birth to seven children, all while residing at Monticello: Thomas, Harriet, Edy, Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston. Hemings' first-born took the name Thomas Woodson and is conspicuously absent from Jefferson's personal records. He was born in 1790, shortly after Hemings and Jefferson returned from France. Thomas Woodson was probably gone from Monticello by the time Madison was born in 1805, although the age of his departure is unknown. Hemings's second child, Harriet was born in 1795 but only lived two years. Edy was born in 1796 and died in her infancy. Hemings's second son, Beverly, was born in 1798, followed by Harriet in 1801, Madison in 1805, and Eston in 1808.

Life at Monticello for the Hemings family is best described by Madison Hemings in his 1873 memoir:

"My brothers, sister Harriet and myself were used alike. They were put to some mechanical trade at age fourteen. Till then we were permitted to stay about the 'great house,' and only required to do such light work as going on errands. Harriet learned to spin and weave in a little factory on the home plantation. We were free from the dread of having to be slaves all our lives long, and were measurably happy. We were always permitted to be with our mother, who was well used. It was her duty, all her life which I can remember, up to the time of our father's death, to take care of his [Jefferson's] chamber and wardrobe, look after us children and do such light work as sewing, &c. Provision was made in the will of our father that we should be free when we arrived at the age of 21 years."

Harriet and Beverly were listed as "runaways" in Thomas Jefferson's personal records from 1822. The reality was that they were allowed to walk away, and because of their light-colored skin, blend into the free white world of Washington, D.C. Madison and Eston were freed in Jefferson's will at his death in 1826. They rented a house together in a nearby county. Sally Hemings was not mentioned in Jefferson's will, and a year later was listed on the official slave inventory as worth $50. Although Hemings was never officially freed from slavery, Jefferson's daughter, Martha, provisionally freed Sally Hemings, by giving her "her time." Unofficial freedom meant that Hemings could stay in Virginia, where the law required freed slaves to leave the state within a year of their emancipation. Hemings spent her remaining years living in a rented house with her sons Madison and Eston. She died in 1835."

(end of excerpt)

Fifty bucks. Day-um.

Now, back to the Monticello Foundation web site for further, fairly damning evidence:

  • "Thomas Jefferson was at Monticello at the likely conception times of Sally Hemings' six known children. There are no records suggesting that she was elsewhere at these times, or records of any births at times that would exclude Jefferson paternity."
  • "There are no indications in contemporary accounts by people familiar with Monticello that Sally Hemings' children had different fathers."
  • "According to contemporary accounts, some of Sally Hemings' children strongly resembled Thomas Jefferson."
  • "Thomas Jefferson freed all of Sally Hemings' children: Beverly and Harriet were allowed to leave Monticello in 1822; Madison and Eston were released in Jefferson's 1826 will. Jefferson gave freedom to no other nuclear slave family."

If this were a modern-day case and the evidence were presented before a judge/jury, Jefferson would be paying child support -- big time. No, my "side" did not "lose." The preponderance of the evidence supports what most modern-day historians -- and some members of Jeffersons own (white) family bloodline have come to accept: Jefferson was no different from hundreds of white men of his time. He sired -- not fathered; sired -- children by at least one black woman because he wanted to, and because he could. He owned her body, and he used her/it as he saw fit.

Curious that the Wikipedia article fails miserably in covering this controversy -- something which should be remedied. :p deeceevoice 03:40, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

And what? Still no response to my challenge that you substantiate your ridiculous comment about my "virulent anti-white racism"? Typical. LMBAO. deeceevoice 03:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

If you can back this up, it would make a good addition to the Sally Hemings article Samboy 20:52, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: End of talk moved from Talk:Martin Luther King, Jr.