Talk:Saiyan

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About "Jin."
"Jin" is a japanese character for "person." So in japanese, an american is refered to as an "amerika-jin." (American person.)
Thusly, "Saiya-jin" would be "Saiyan-person." (As compared to, say, the nation or planet.)

Anyone have any qualms with merging this page with "Halfbreed Saiyan"? The difference isn't terribly significant. It also: 1) Gets rid of the 'Halfbreed' name, which sounds offensive to my ears. (Almost a racial slur.) 2) Removes duplicate information. 3) Gives us a list of all "Super Saiyans" on one page. We can keep the character lists separate though. JRP 23:41, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I made a couple of edits. I tried to clean up the article a little overall (almost nothing was pluralized). I also took out the lines about Brolly. Since he isn't canon, I don't think he's relevent when discussing Freeza's reasons for destroying Vegeta-sei. Linking to the characters own page should be sufficient. I also took out the paragraph on Super Saiya-jin. It was confusing, and there's a very comprehensive article on Super Saiya-jin as it is. Again, linking to that page should be sufficient. If anyone disagrees, feel free to say so here or revert. Onikage725 02:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vegeta Jr's Mother's diluted Saiyan blood

I've been like a two days saying that Vegeta's Mother is 1/8 of Saiyan Blood and is because Vegeta Jr is a 1/16 of Saiyan Blood (like Goku Jr). I want a explanation from the user who is editing this fact (that user is saying that Vegeta Jr's Mother is 1/4 Saiyan Blood) but is impossible because Pan is also 1/4 Saiyan Blood. Dragon 10:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

See User talk:3bulletproof16#Vegeta Jr.'s mother. He deleted my message saying only "wtf?" when I asked him about it initially.[1] I believes he understands now, so there's no use pressing the issue.

By the way, it is customary to post new messages at the bottom of talk pages, not the top. –Gunslinger47 04:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Vegeta Jr possibally is more than a saiyan than Goku Jr becouse remember Pan and Bra were around the same age but pan was only 1/4 of a saiyan rather than 1/2 like Bra. Charles Locke 21:45 12, March 2007.

[edit] Babies

How do Saiyans have babies? I know how Nameks have babies, but I do not know how Saiyans have babies. Please, somebody, enlighten me on this subject. Thank you. Later!!! 205.188.116.71 20:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

-I imagine saiyans have babies the same way humans do...by mating. Akira Toriyama confirmed that female saiyans existed. Even though the Bardock special is not quite canon, it probably accuratly portrays the females. In the bar scene there was a couple with their arms around each other. I imagine they as any saiyans wouldn't mind being intimate.

When Saiyans do exceptionally well in battle, at night there household may be visited by the royal stork. Onikage725 16:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, if the Bardock film isn't canon (which showed females) then just accept that they grew their babies in test tibes and breed the best fighters... which are male because they are superior to females.

-G —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.117.157.7 (talk) 01:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Saiyans have babies the same way humans have them. As seen in the unedited Tree of Might and even the Bardock special that was talked about, both Goku and Gohan have penises. Seeing this, you can assume that the women had vagina's and thats how they made babies. Also i don't remember exactly the circumstances but Goku impregnated Chi Chi and then i think died because he came back that one day for the tournament and was surprised to see his son who he didn't know about. It can only be assumed from this instance that the whole baby procedure is the same with 2 saiyans as it is for a saiyan and a human, you can also probably get some more information out of the birth of trunks but I don't remember how that went down. By the way episode 64 shows a female saiyan as part of King Vegeta's rebellion.

[edit] Non Canonical

Bulla (Or Bra) is listed as a canonical half-saiyan, but she only appears in Dragonball GT which is non canonical.

Shouldn't she be moved to the non-canonical half-saiyan section where Goku Jr is?

If she is moved, you should note that Pan should stay where she is because she is present in the final episode of Dragonball Z so she is canon. --Simondrake 22:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

No, she was in the last episode. Look at her article, there's a pic there.Onikage725 01:03, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Bulla or Bra also appeared in the last issue of DragoballZ(26) in the Manga. Charles Locke 21:49, 12 April 2007

[edit] Both Pan and Bra Are Canon Period

Both Bra and Pan are canon because they appear in the manga but the only difference was that Bra didnt say anything while pans role was much larger than hers. Mr.Man 8:15, 13 April 2007

[edit] Bra

I changed Bulla to Bra, and here's why. First I fixed the link. The character's own article goes with Bra, and I brought it straight to her page. As it was, clicking Bulla lead to a Bulla disambiguation page, now clicking her name brings up her article directly. Secondly, Bra is the more familiar name. I did a search of the two and Bulla landed 130,000 results while Bra hit over a million. And yes, I did the search under Dragon Ball GT, not just the word "Bra." (which in and of itself lands over 100 million results). Onikage725 16:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

SSJ refers to Super Saiya-jin, not Saiya-jin. Saiya-jin means vegetable people, more or less, only the y and s are swapped.

Another thing to add is that Vegeta explains about Saiya-jin lifespan in the SECOND TO LAST chapter, not last.

I think we should change everyones names back to the original names used in the manga. Mr.Man 8:13, 13 March 2007

[edit] Tail

Didn't Goku have his tail removed as a youth and it never grew back until it was removed artificially in GT, and GT sucks so we don't pay attention to that.

- Kami removed Goku's tail permantly in order to restore the moon.

So its possible its a half-breed thing where the tail re-grows continuously. The big problem is that they wrote tails out after SUper Saiyan was created so there were only 3 examples, Veg, Goku and Gohan.

- Gohan's tail grew back several times during the Saiyan Saga.

That doesn't even make any sense? --Phred Levi 23:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Tails were never written out, the author just forgot about them. As far as the growing back thing, Goku's tail did grow back, but he had it "permanently removed a long time ago" as he told Raditz.Adroa (talk) 21:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Powers

Question...I don't remember correctly but can saiyans breathe in outer space? I remember an episode when Vegeta and Nappa were on their way to Earth for the first time and they destroyed a planet from outside their spaceships. Can they or can't they breathe in outer space?

No, Freeza was going to destroy Namek because he could survive in Space where Goku could not. I'd guess its just a continuity error or that Vegeta and Nappa were classed as still being in the atmosphere of the planet at the time.Darkwarriorblake 02:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, however, now that I think about it, the entire Saiyan army was in outer space when Frieza destroyed them...now what? I guess, maybe, Goku could possibly not have been adapted to that power of outer space-survival?

There must have been some technique for using Ki to protect oneself from the void of space. As evidence I present that Vegeta was planning on blowing up Earth in order to defeat Goku. I seriously doubt he would have attempted that if he didn't have a way of surviving in space. Yes, he was enraged at the time, but winning against Goku wouldn't have meant anything if he died in the process. He was planning on going to Namek to wish for immortality afterwards, so it's not like he was willing to throw away his life on a whim.

Daishokaioshin 20:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a major plothole and misconception on the part of the saiyans. Yes is is said by Frieza that saiyans can not breath in space. However if you go through the first few sagas of DBZ you will see that saiyans have been seen in space and breathing, the episode when Vegeta destroys that planet, Vegeta training and chasing some energy he think is Goku in the beginning of the Android saga. The final moments before Planet Vegeta was destroyed by Frieza, Bardock is see not only fly in space but flew into space from the planet surface. Even though it's a movie when Pargus(sorry if i misspelled his name)explaining the early story of Broly. It is seen twice that they are shown in space breathing normally. So yes canon by Frieza that saiyans can't do that but the plothole in the story show otherwise.

Heat P, 03 November 2006

It's not a plothole. Clearly, there is a technique for shielding oneself from the void of space. It would make sense for the Saiyajin associated with the Planet Trade to know the technique, since they spend so much time planet hopping, but someone like Goku, who had never been off the planet until he went to Namek-sei, required a spacesuit when he went outside of his spaceship. Also, sign your name with four tildes after your comments, rather than forcing other people to go through and mark your comments as unsigned.

Daishokaioshin 13:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Show us the technique. What the techniques name or title? And as for Goku. How does Goku know? As you said he been on earth most his life so he doesn't know of this as he was believing himself to be a earthling. He had no knowledge of there being a technique or if saiyan can breath in space. That is understandable. But give us proof thats it is a technique and not you own opinion which you are giving to us. Then it is a plothole in the Anime series. Oh, Sorry Dai i'm new at these so i hope i signed my own right.

Heat P 19:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't need to tell or show you anything.

All of this highly irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the article, so this discussion is being terminated right here and right now. The talk pages are for discussing the article, not the subject of the article. If you continue to have these arguments then something will be done about it.

Bulma's father designed the space suit for Goku which was needed due to the incident of almost falling off into outer space which wouldn't have really happened due to the laws of physics, and also for the magnet boots that were a part of it. Just because Goku used the suit doesn't necessarily mean that he needed it although he probably did, just wanted to point that out. - lucasthelefty

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lucasthalefty (talk • contribs) 03:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Daishokaioshin 23:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Remember to remain civil, Heat P. And personal attacks don't help win a debate. It gets you blocked.--SU IT⁴² 07:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

How can you not get it? Daishokaioshin explained it to you already. Instead of accusing her of making personal attacks, you should accually listen to what she says.--SU IT⁴² 17:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Duely note and perfect clear, wont say anything futher on any note. I'm out of your discussion and debates. I am way to old to be arguing with children over something that has something to do with the article.

Heat P 04:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello I just was wondering something that I have notice. Is that ki technique statement an original statement with little or no truth behind? I reed the rules and thats under Original Reseach. Because there is no real truth behind that. So why put your opinion on that article and try to make it truth? There is no saying in any manga or animation series that there is a ki technique for breathing in space. So the person that said it's most likely a plothole in the manga and series has a more reasonable resolution to that question. You trying to make yourselves right on a original research when there is no real truth behind that. So don't make a statement that may seem more likely then coming up with a reasonable truth. Also when you try to help someone and then someone else fix it and shows you up don't say it does not have anything to do with the article when you help start the debate. Thats all SSD4

How about you stop accusing people of introducing original research into things? I haven't added ANY original research into ANY article. We don't know if there's a technique for it, and we don't know if it's a plothole. It's best to just not mention it in the article at all, because saying one way or the other WOULD be original research (something you clearly don't know the definition of, since you seem to fling the term around a lot). Talk pages are for discussing the article. Things may be said which would not be included in the article itself, as people attempt to resolve issues and answer questions. There is no rule against this. I'm not pointlessly talking about things that have no relation to the article, like asking, "Why is Kuririn bald?" when it's explained in the Kuririn article that he is not bald, and would be more of a forum question than something to be asked on here.

At the time the above question was asked, I offered what I understood the answer to be, based on years of being part of a fandom that didn't have all the information on the series, because Dragon Ball Z hadn't been brought over here to America in its complete form, in a way that English-speakers could understand. Looking back on it, it may well be that it was a plothole. It may well be that I reacted poorly to Heat P when he was attempting to discuss the subject, and I am sorry for that. But we all have bad days, and we all tend to stick to what we believe to be true, until time has passed, and we can look back on the subject with experience, and determine whether our beliefs are justified. And it is not your task to run around policing me, and saying everytime I offer an opinion that I am putting original research into an article. The talk page is NOT the article. It is a place for talking ABOUT the article.

I hope I have made things a bit clearer.

Daishokaioshin 23:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Dai don't even worry about it. You and I dicussed and we left it alone. Don't entertain this subject no farther for that sake. It's all good here. SSD4 wrote that a while ago. I think SSD4 has come to his senses since then. Plothole or Technique? Doesn't matter anymore. We may never know. So It's all good. I wrote that responce when I didn't really know the rules and guidelines as I know now. I didn't really know too much about the talk pages as I know now. So i wanna apologize to you and Suit for tha last comment about children on Nov 7th. You didn't have to apologize. It was all good shorty. Heat P 19:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, just a comment... While Frieza (in the anime, the only source I'm familiar with) DID say it was the saiyan army that he destroyed... I'm 99.9% sure that none of those soldiers (aside from Bardock of course) were saiyans. It was described differently, but the flashback scene (with the exception of the dialogue, and bits about King Vegeta) was taken right out of the TV Special, and in that, it was Frieza's troops who were trying to stop Bardock. So.. either just another plothole, or Frieza really is that stupid.

None of this is a plothole. You're going based of the atmosphere you can see. Earth has a relatively thin atmospheric layer, and simply because you can't see the "sky" of a planet doesn't mean there isn't an atmosphere. It is more likely that they simply don't need as much air to breathe as some other species do. All of this is speculation, but the facts state clearly that they need some atmosphere to survive, WHICH IS DIRECTLY STATED IN THE SERIES. This whole argument is pointless anyway because it really has nothing to do with the article.Adroa (talk) 21:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hair theory?

| Picture of Vegeta in DBGT.
Seems to e the only exception.
look at the Super 17 saga.
24.131.85.248 17:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about?--SU IT⁴² 17:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Vegeta is the only pure blood Saiyan that chages hair style and length through the series, Look at DBZ episode 64 when freeza flashbacks, he has bangs, in DBGT episode 25, before Bebi arrives, he shaves, and his hair kind of looks like Gohan's during the Buu saga. this excception should be expressed somewhere.

I really don't think that Saiyans have some magical curse that stops them from getting a hair cut. It doesn't really need to be mentioned.--Koji Dude ^{(Contributions)} 14:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

They do mention the thing with Saiyan hair somewhere in the series. IIRC, it usually returns to its default length within a day. Regarding Vegeta in GT, I had assumed that Bulma cut his hair daily. –Gunslinger47 14:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

good. lets delete out the hair part. Man Law?
Lee1019 14:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

No the hair part is a trait that is common to pure blooded Saiyans, just because it might not be as important to the series as a tail for instance doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned. I wanted to also make a suggestion to the hair section saying that the hair doesn't grow but hair can be lost which would explain Vegeta's hair being different as a kid since his receding hair line would have made his bangs fall out like was mentioned before about episode 64. Also although not cannon, in the Bardock special Nappa had hair but not when he came to earth. It makes sense that if a Saiyan looses hair it'll stay that way, I doubt that Nappa was bald his entire life especially if he's portrayed having hair once although non cannon. I edited it saying that the rare occasions of a saiyan having brown OR BLUE hair, once again episode 64 shows a Saiyan woman soldier with blue hair. Lucasthalefty 03:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The conversation ended a long time ago--$UIT 04:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

There is way to much confusion about this we need to bring the conversation back up starting tomorwow. Charles Locke 21:57, 12 March 2007

Why? What's the point of starting a conversation that ended months ago?--$UIT 01:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

People are confused about this specific subject. I am confused about this. Charles Locke, 10:25, 13 April 2007

Yes the conversation was over a long time ago but some people are confused. My opinion is if you need to have some of these questions answered read the previous conversation. Willie da coyote 10:31, 13 April 2007

I have a distinct memory of Vegeta stating, when they meet Mirai Trunks in the manga, that all saiyans have dark(black) hair. Akke Bandvagn (talk) 19:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

What? Vegeta states when he comes out of the room of space and time with future Trunks that Saiyans hair never changes. That doesn't mean their hair is invincible, it just mean at full length, that is what their hair will look like if they never ever cut it again. Think about our hair color, we can change it, but our hair color will naturually go back to it's original color when it grows out (in most cases). As far as hair color goes, all full blooded saiyans either have black or brown hair, for example Vegeta's hair is actually brown officially. Adroa (talk) 21:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Half-breeds and tails

Is there any actual evidence that says that Goten and Trunks have recessive genes and were born tailess? Gohan was born with a tail, and was tailess by the time he was the age we meet Goten at. By the time Trunks and Goten were around, noone would want an infant Ozaru around. Does anything actually say they were born without tails? Onikage725

No it does not. This discussion has been had so many times, so many places... There is no evidence to support the completely fan-made hypothesis that they were born without tails. No reason to mention that garbage at all in the article (I'm assuming the reason you brought it up was because someone who doesn't know what they're talking about decided to add it in).

When it showed baby Trunks he has no tail. What is weird is during the Cell games saga when they show a flashback of Gohan as a baby he had no tail yet in the Saiyan saga Gohan had a tail.

Daishokaioshin 08:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Which Episode number during the cell games did this flashback occur? - lucasthelefty

Oh yeah when trunks was a baby during the android saga he didnt have a tail, but why is gohan the only half breed saiyan with a tail? Mr.man 8:20, 13 April 2007

[edit] Tsufurujin/Tuffles; Pluralization

I changed the article to keep mentioning the Tsufurujin as that. Should I have? Or should it stay as the dub name?

But I was thinking...there was quite a lot of the talk of the 'saiyans' on this page. Japanese doesn't change the word for its plural form. Although, from the way people are talking it seems that Saiyan is the English name and it's a messed version of the Japanese name.

-continues to look through article- Monsters in a Train 22:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

I've made a request for clarification on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (capital letters) about how to capitalize or not-capitalize Saiyan. Let's just leave this and other articles be until we get some guidance, instead of reverting each other back and forth. JRP 14:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops, didn't see this. Oh well. 65.175.173.48 20:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Super Saiyan hybrids

This article says there is some confusion as to how saiyan-human hybrids become super saiyan more easily than regular saiyans.

There are two theories about saiyan half-breeds and their ability to become SSJ with more ease than regular saiyans:

The more diluted saiyan blood becomes, the easier it is for that saiyan to achieve the Super Saiyan level (to a certain point), even though the motivation to fight or transform into a Super Saiyan is depleted.
When a son is conceived after or around the time that his saiyan father becomes a Super Saiyan, it is easier or almost natural for that son to go Super Saiyan when he matures enough to fight.

This is a little mistaken, as the second answer has been proven, in canon, while the first is mere speculation. When a son is conceived after or around the time that his saiyan father becomes a Super Saiyan, it is easier or almost natural for that son to go Super Saiyan when he matures enough to fight. Consider this. In canon, Gohan could NOT become a super saiyan at a young age as Goten could, despite them both being half-saiyans and both having the same mother.Gohan had to go through intense training before becoming a super saiyan. Goten was concived AFTER Goku was super saiyan, Gohan before. Also, in the History of Trunks TV special, Future Trunks also could not become a super saiyan at a young age, as he could in the normal DBZ timeline. He had to go through the same intense training Gohan did. This is because again, Future Trunks was concived before Vegeta becaume a super saiyan, while chibi trunks was concived after. I dont know where this notion of dilluting the saiyan blood makes them more capable of super saiyan form comes from, but its wrong. If that were true Pan could have more easily become a Super saiyan than both Trunks and Goten. Pan NEVER became a super saiyan, so we dont even know if she COULD. With all this in mind, I feel we should remove the "speculation" and put what is canontical. Saiyans born from a super saiyan father can become super saiyans more easily. (Animedude 20:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

Wait. How do you know at what point Future Trunks was conceived in his timeline? In History of Trunks, Vegeta is a Super Saiyan when he was killed by the Androids. If we assume that he was born about the same time as his counterpart, then it's possible that Vegeta had achieved Super Saiyan form BEFORE his conception. Of course, this is speculation, but I don't see how it's any less possible than the inverse.

It's a very good theory and all, but "canon"? If it's not stated directly in the series, then it seems more like OR than canon. King Zeal 01:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Vegeta was driven to train intensely to become a Super Saiyan due to Future Trunks' warning. He achieved the SSJ state and got together with Bulma during the training period after this, and prior to the arrival of the androids. –Gunslinger47 02:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Something can be SHOWN without being explicitly stated and still be canon. Gohan couldnt become a super saiyan at a young age, Goten could. The only diffrence between the two is when they were concived. If it were true that the lesser the saiyan blood became the more potenial to become super saiyan easily rises, then Gohan would have been able to become a super saiyan at a young age with little training, just like Goten could. He didnt. (Animedude 04:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC))

More significantly, Trunks easily achieved a SSJ state, while his alternate future self had to go through intense training to achieve it. –Gunslinger47 08:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

This still doesn't make it "canon". This makes it a theory. Granted, it's a very sound theory, but it's written through the assumption that what's seen in-universe is enough to present the theory. The manual of fiction actually makes it explicitly clear that this isn't acceptable. No matter how sound of a theory it sounds, without direct sources to confirm it, it's still a theory. King Zeal 05:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

This subject is one of the hottest topics in the talk pages of Dragon Ball. Even though I do believe in the conception theory of Goten and Chibi Trunks's Super Saiyan powers. It is just that a theory but it has STRONG evidence that the conception theory can be true. King Zeal's is right, but King Zeal, Animedude does have a point. Just because something is not stated but is shown can make it a canon piece of Dragon Ball and other fictional works out there. Remember many things in Dragon Ball are shown and has been considered canon with no stated explanation. However this subject has been discussed and it has been agreed that unless confirmation from a source like Mr. Toriyamam, Toei, or Funimation, etc..., something offical is stated then the conception theory will not be posted on this article as a actual fact but as a theory that it is as stated in the article now. But again my opinion like many others, I believe in the theory to be fact because it is just too much of a coincidence that this young saiyans have the ability to go Super Saiyan at such a young age with none of the requirements that every other Super Saiyan before them went through. However that is only my opinion.Heat P 07:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

What's more likely than this hypothesis, is that Akira Toriyama wanted Goten and Trunks to become Super Saiyajin at that point in the story, for the purposes of the story. There doesn't need to be a logical explanation aside from that. He wanted it that way, so he wrote it that way. Much like Goku going from a power level of 90,000 to 3,000,000 in a single stint in the rejuvenation tanks, the only logic that matters is what Akira Toriyama used: If it makes a good story, then it doesn't matter how it works.

Fan-logic and wild speculation is not needed in this article. It might make sense at first observation that this "theory" is sound, but if you really want to get technical, it wouldn't matter WHEN Goku became a Super Saiyajin, if his genes carried the possibility to become one in the first place. Gohan and Goten both went SSJ. So did Trunks. All this means is that the genetic possibility for becoming one was present in Goku and Vegeta's DNA. The ages involved are most likely utterly random, because what a parent does to their own body does not affect the DNA of the child. If Goku cut off his arm before having Gohan, Gohan would not be missing an arm when he was born.

However, genetics has never been Akira Toriyama's strong point, as is evidenced by Cell, and his obtaining the knowledge of how to use techniques, which should only be possible to obtain through learning them, not being born with them, through possessing the cells of those who knew certain techniques. Having Piccolo's regeneration, and a Saiyajin's recovery factor are one thing. But knowing how to use the Kamehameha, which was obtained through study, and practice, and was NOT an inherent part of Goku's genetics, is utterly absurd.

Does it matter that this is absurd? Hell no. It makes a good story, so it doesn't matter how it works. It was a plot device. Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyajin at young ages is a plot device. Trying to make up explanations is a waste of time, and has no place on Wikipedia. A forum would be a far better place to espouse "theories" which have no evidence to support them, so people might want to try there instead of Wikipedia.

Daishokaioshin 00:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Akira Toriyama follows the guidelines of his show, its not just that he says so or that it would be a good story that these things happen, they're explained in the story because if they weren't then no one would have a clue what was going on. Goku's power level grew drastically in the rejuvenation tank because thats what happens to Saiyans after being badly injured, thats explained, it might be a little far fetched but still its explained. Also the genetics of a Saiyan can't be measured by the same means as a human's, they're genes could become different after the transformation. Although that seems like a long shot and i'm not offering it as fact you can't make claims about anything that wasn't talked about or seen (cannon) even though you assume it to be true. You can assume that Saiyan genetics work the same as human genetics but if you can't find any cannon to back it then it still just an assumption. - lucasthelefty

You are right about what Mr. Toriyama did for the story. But still it just coincidence that AT did that with two fathers with that ability and Toei using this same plot device with Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr in the end of GT. As for DNA, real physical damage will not be past through generations but other things can and have been. Science has proven that thing like dieases, deformaties, Health problems, Health period and quite a few other genetics have been past dowm from parent to childern or generation to generation sometimes pasting parents and grandparents and passing down to child. So passing energy signature through cells is possiblie. Remember the Force in Star Wars?

But like you said AT genetic knowledge does not seem to be his strong suit. And I agree that, even though I did jump into this with and I will still keep my opinion it just has no place here to try and explain something the is a theory, hypothesis, or speculation without a offical source and its been years since Dragon Ball truly ending. So we may never know if AT was using gentics again like with Cell or a Plot Device as Dai just pointed out.

However there is evidence that the theory is sound, quite a bit of evidence so sorry Dai that is really the only thing I disagree with. The only thing is that the evidence just has not been proven. But using it in the article as it is seems to be ok as long as whoever did it does not turn it into a fact of Dragon Ball with no offical statement or source and keeps it and stated it as a theory, nothing more. If so, then it will get removed. plan and simple.

Heat P 06:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

A few things: First off, the Force is not "inherited through cells"; a person's natural Force-sensitivity depends (in part) upon their Midi-clorian count. The parents' Force powers are not passed down the generations like hair color, though there may be a certain genetic affinity for harboring the organisms, though for all we know, they might even be (able to be) spread like AIDS. Second, Is no one else considering that a Saiyan's power level could be influenced by multiple genetic factors, not just one? Also Heat P, I'm not trying to do any of those personal attack things, but, to paraphrase your above arguement, are you saying that since certain diseases are genetic or have genetic factors, and since the Force is strong in the Skywalker family, Goku and Vegeta's lines are inherently powerful? I mean I agree that the lines are naturally powerful, but it'd be pretty hard to try to back up a DBZ theory with Star Wars. (By the way, I haven't read too many Star Wars books taking place after Ep.VI, so correct me if I'm wrong about the Midi-clorians.) And as a final note, did Akira Toriyama really make DBZ canon inheritance of acquired traits? No offense anyone, but, that seems pretty BS'y to me. I'm pretty sure Darwin had something to say about that back in 18whenever. lol and not to nit-pick or anything, but science is a study and does not prove anything; it is the people who use their knowledge of the study who do. RCIWesner (talk) 06:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saiyan Appetites

Doesn't that entire section about the appetites of Saiyans seem like OR? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but when was any Saiyan outside of the Son family shown to be gluttonous? King Zeal 01:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Consider yourself corrected then. Both Vegeta and Trunks are seen eating later in the series. You might recall the scene where Goten and Trunks ran off from a (considerably large) restaurant bill during the final tournament arc of Dragon Ball Z. –Gunslinger47 02:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Goten doesn't count, as he's a member of the Son family. And when you say that Trunks and Vegeta "are seen eating", are you implying that it was just as much as Goku usually chows down on throughout the series? King Zeal 05:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

How does he "not count"? And yes. Yes it was. It's not OR in the slightest. Rewatch Dragon Ball Z if you have doubts.

Daishokaioshin 09:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked for examples OUTSIDE of the Son family. Goten, therefore, does not apply. And you can't seriously expect me to rewatch the entire series to prove your point for you. If you have a source, I'm happy to leave this point alone. However, I just want to eliminate all chance of this being OR. King Zeal 18:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you not recall the scene I mentioned? Goten and Trunks both ate fantastic quantities of food then skipped out on the bill during the final tournament. Episode 208, "Next Up, Goku", in the Bebi saga. This is an example of someone with saiyan blood outside of the Son family (i.e. Trunks) who demonstrates the notorious saiyan appitite. –Gunslinger47 21:44, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Also during the World Tournament saga during a scene in the Tournament concetion area resturant. We see Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta consuming a large amount of food with Piccolo watching in amazment at how the Saiyans eat. I can not think the episode number at this time but I will let you know unless someone else can tell you before i can. So I hope that anwsers that question on giving you a example. If not do as Dai said and watch the World Tournament Saga again.

Heat P 14:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The episode I was talking about is the Funimation unedited #213 titled Big Trouble, Little Trunks. But to revert a statement. It was in the contestants' rest area and not a resturant. Also Krillin,18, and Videl along with Piccolo watch in amazement at the Saiyans eating. Krillin even said a statement about the way the Saiyans eat infront of Videl who at the time did not know what a Saiyans was.

Heat P 20:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that at the end of the Namek saga(manga), when Bulma offered Vegeta a place to stay, she stated, in semi-question form, that he eats about as much as Goku does. Akke Bandvagn (talk) 11:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fixed abbreviation

Note: I fixed the abbreviation for saiyan a while ago, it had orignally stated thet the abbreviation was "SSJ" but that is for super saiyan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.14.33.214 (talk) 21:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Change this

Tail wouldnt really fall under unique abillities would it? Mr.Man 8:32, 13 April 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Charles Locke (talk • contribs) 12:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

Actually it would because the tail gives Saiyans and half Saiyan the unique ability to transform into the Oozaru. So yes it would. Heat P 18:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Small Grammatical Point

I just wanted to check before I changed it, but shouldn't the first sentence read "its three adaptations to anime" rather than adoptions. Please correct me if I'm wrong. SCRA5071 19:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saiyans from another planet?

Hello, people! How can Saiyans possibly be from another planet, if they were a primitive civilization, thus not having the technology to travel through space, considering this happened generations before Freeza took it over? In that case which planet did they originally come from, and is there more Saiyans there, or is it destroyed? You people don't even think about these things! This is probably just another inconsistent history added in DBGT, while neglecting to properly refer to the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z manga (or in this case the anime). Also, King Vegeta was said to led the Saiyans. How can this be if this was generations prior to Freeza's invasion? Of course, if you use you imagination strong enough, Baby may have been exaggerating on the Saiyan invader part, and used it figuratively to desribe their invasion to Tsufuru civilization, using pictures. Also Baby was in Vegeta at the time possibly melding (or corrupting) memories of Planet Plant/Planet Vegeta's past, thus explaining the "Saiyan takeover" story. I await your answers to my question. Uglyguy2006

First of all, people isn't, people are. Learn some grammar, it's not that hard. Second, DBGT isn't necessarily canon, so it could be regarded as aplothole or ignored, it's up to you.--Kim Kusanagi 03:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Your repsonse is quite rude. And by the way, when people type a lot they do tend to make mistakes. For all you know, on a good day, my grammar is far more advanced than yours. So before you respond, get some manners and courtesy before you criticize my grammar. I apologize for the personal attack, but I deemed your comment unneccessary. May I remind you that my discussion was about "Saiyans from another planet" not about appropriate grammar. Again, I don't know and you don't know me, so until you claim to be an English professor, try to keep your insensitive grammar points to yourself.

Secondly, I wrote my first comment months ago, and it took this long to reply. The problem had been rectified by yours truly, by the way. I was simply addressing those who put the plothole in the article, and if you read it, I made it pretty clear it was likely to be an "inconsistency". So there you go, dislike your reply, but your point was good. Think about how you answer before you actually do it, and try not to turn this into an argument, I'd prefer you don't go there (If have any more grammar points, try to be polite).Uglyguy2006 20:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Quite a feline defense. LOL, I apologize for my rudeness.--Kim Kusanagi 05:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow Uglyguy2006... just wow.

Anyway, the Saiyans were primitive compared to their neighbors, and after conquering them, they acquired their technology and so could then travel between planets more easily, though as has already been pointed out, a lot of Saiyans have been seen flying around through space just fine. Also, neither of your two most recent posts realy had anything to do with DBZ, and for all you know, he very well might be an English professor. It also helps to proofread what you're typing like you've just told him to do.

And how do you know what we don't think about?

I've just realized that "Kim" is also a girl's name. lol sorry if I've used the generic masculine in error. RCIWesner (talk) 06:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Wait, do you mean were they from another planet before or after they invaded the Tuffles? Sorry, I'm not sure what you meant. RCIWesner (talk) 06:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm a guy. I chose the Korean family name Kim as a nick, since I am a Korean and Japanese MAs student. I have other nicks, just that I used this for both GFAQs and Wikipedia.--Kim Kusanagi (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saiyan evolution

Royals and Elite saiyans can't be more evolved than low-caste. Superior, yes in terms of strength and ki-manipulation, but not evolved. The statement by Vegeta as "more evolved Saiyans" because of Nappa's immunity of the tail being grabbed may be just a figure of speech (something that was frequently neglected) and may have meant evolved in terms of grown stronger and gained immunity from the tail weakness (as Raditz neglected to train his). Besides, if Royal and Elite Saiyans are more evolved than low-class Saiyans, Why is Goku stronger than Vegeta? (Not to mention defeated Nappa with ease) It seems that Goku has a greater potential than all of the Saiyans (despite being low-class), and can access all the Super Saiyan forms, (which Vegeta can't without technological means) and is safer to say that it was originally thought that low-class Saiyans were less evolved than Royals and Elites, prior to Goku's fight with the Saiyans. Also note that Tullece, a movie villian who gave Goku trouble in The Tree of Might, was a low-level Saiyan, and Burdock, Goku's father was a low-level Saiyan and was said to be almsot as strong as King Vegeta (a royal). Think about it. Uglyguy2006

Goku's father was NOWHERE near as strong as King Vegeta until the very end, and that difference was almost overcome due to the huge amount of Zenkai Power powerups gained by Burdock, while King Vegeta didn't get anything. So, if they had gained the same experience, King Vegeta would be stronger. But WTH, it doesn't have anything to do with the article.--Kim Kusanagi 03:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you chose to discuss, took you long enough, but I believe that even as the King of Saiyans, King Vegeta was involved in battles, even though most were left to the soldiers. He may be a king, but he was still under servitude of Freeza, and in effect a mercenary. There was even a flashback in the anime from Vegeta of King Vegeta wiping out a planet. Also, King Vegeta was considered to be one of the Saiyan's greatest warriors. The main point was that Elites and Royals can't possibly be more evolved than low-castes. That's a credulous statement. That's like saying Fighter-type Nameks are more evolved than Soldie-typesr and Warrior-types. It's silly.Uglyguy2006 20:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Super Saiyan.jpg

Image:Super Saiyan.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 04:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Zenkai Power powerup doesn't work if...

You're dead and then revived. It works if you're almost dying and then recover. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But what kills you doesn't make you stronger. If a Saiyan gets killed, he's dead period, and if he gets revived he's restored to the previous state, not leveled up. Maybe in your dub Vegeta stated that he became stronger after getting revived, but then again, Saiyans tend to say a lot of things. Certainly, in other dubs, he, or any other Saiyan, didn't say anything such as that after getting killed/restored to life. So I changed the correspondant section.--Kim Kusanagi 19:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

More proof I just remembered: when the old supreme Kaioh gave up his life to restore Goku's, Goku didn't receive the Zenkai that, according to your wrong logic (the one who wrote that, not you in general), was due to the Cell fight where he died. No, the halo was gone, but no zenkai. And when Vegeta was revived after he wished all good beings restored back to life, he didn't get a zenkai, and he had died fighting Buu.

So, I just proved my point, I think.--Kim Kusanagi 23:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Turles01-3.jpg

Image:Turles01-3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 22:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Turles01-3.jpg

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ok... About the culture of Saiyans...

All right, should we mention that apparantly, the saiyans are doing bad things since they believe that they are doing it as punishment for their sins? I mean, maybe we shouldn't, but Raditz seemed to Imply that was the reason for the Saiyan's vile nature from this exchange between him and Gohan in the "Fateful Brothers" storyline of Budokai Tenkaichi 2:

Gohan: Uncle Raditz, why do you hafta be mean? You're not a bad guy! I know you're not!

Raditz: Hahaha... Because I'm a Saiyan. This is punishment for our sins...

I mean, I know "Fateful Brothers" isn't exactly canon with Dragonball since it was a what if storyline, but i thought it would be worth noting.

~~Weedle_McHairybug~~

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dvd teentr ep274 scrn35.jpg

Image:Dvd teentr ep274 scrn35.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Saiyan Concepts With regards to Saiyan Concepts, this article says in the intro that, "the Saiyan concept reaches its height when the legendary status of Super Saiyan is achieved by Goku, but falls afterward when numerous other characters with Saiyan heritage are able to achieve the state" This not technically correct, given all characters of saiyan heritage are limited as to what limit they are able to reach. It is clear both in the manga and anime that Only full-blooded saiyans are able to reach the states of Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan 4 respectively. Characters of half saiyan descent, i,e. Gohan, Goten,Trunks and others have only been able to reach Super Saiyan level 2. While those with more diluted blood: Pan, Goku Jr. Vegeta Jr. et al have only been able to reach Super Saiyan level 1, in keeping with that it is incorrect to say that the status of Saiyans (full-blooded) as legendary fails, rather is verifiably demonstrated by these reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.241.2.177 (talk) 01:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Saiyan

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Contents

[edit] Vegeta Jr's Mother's diluted Saiyan blood

[edit] Babies

[edit] Non Canonical

[edit] Both Pan and Bra Are Canon Period

[edit] Bra

[edit] Tail

[edit] Powers

[edit] Hair theory?

[edit] Half-breeds and tails

[edit] Tsufurujin/Tuffles; Pluralization

[edit] Capitalization

[edit] Super Saiyan hybrids

[edit] Saiyan Appetites

[edit] Fixed abbreviation

[edit] Change this

[edit] Small Grammatical Point

[edit] Saiyans from another planet?

[edit] Saiyan evolution

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Super Saiyan.jpg

[edit] The Zenkai Power powerup doesn't work if...

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Turles01-3.jpg

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Turles01-3.jpg

[edit] Ok... About the culture of Saiyans...

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dvd teentr ep274 scrn35.jpg

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