Talk:Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

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Hmm, why shouldn't I remerge Military of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines? It's hideously stubby... Martin 12:11, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It's hideous (period) as its own section in the main article. This way, it's out of view. There's the potential for there to be more added. Let's follow the standard country template. --Jiang 22:58, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

We're not following Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries for communications and foreign relations - Why follow for military? If more is added, then in due course it can always be summarised here and spun off (as for "foreign relations"). It's bad tmesis, perhaps. Too much reader/editor time wasted following links that provide no additional information. Martin 12:26, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Stop with the discussionless reverting

Ahi dis is sooooooooookoolstrotrain and SimonP, please stop reverting each other without discussion. Presumably whether to include those templates or not is a decision affecting not just this page, so if the discussion is taking elsewhere please let me know. Pcb21| Pete 18:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

No, it's going on all over - half a dozen or more pages on my watchlist. I agree - let the rest of us know where the debate is going on, let's get it resolved! (It isn't like the two of them are the only editors on any of these pages). Guettarda 18:56, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about all of this. There is some talk about this on the user pages of Astrotrain, Jtdirl, and I. There is also some discussion at Talk:Canada#Templates and just recently at Talk:United Kingdom. In the past the template issue has been much debated at WikiProject_Countries. - SimonP 19:27, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. Guettarda 19:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board

I would like to announce the establishment of the Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in. Guettarda 1 July 2005 04:12 (UTC)

[edit] 15 ISPs?

"In 2000 it had 15 ISPs."

I seriously doubt the validy of this claim. And logically, why would a country with 3,500 internet users have 15 ISPs?

Haha. I doubt the validity of that statement too. I checked the CIA's entry on the country. They say that in 2005 there were 21 Internet hosts. Maybe that was misinterpreted as ISP's. I'll correct it. ~ Hairouna 22:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Something to keep in mind... Many US-based ISPs used to have dial-up on-ramps in the Caribbean for their customers when they'd go on vacation.. These numbers although they would be considered a local call when in the Caribbean the ISP would still add their own large- per minute fee (which they would make-up and charge their customer's Internet bill for that customer placing a long distance phone call back to the USA using the on-ramp.) This fee was added to the customer's Internet bill when they returned home. None the less this practice of on-ramps have decreased since many ISPs now offer web=based email access and thus you don't need to POP3 home. Many did have phone #s in the Caribbean.
P.S. THE CIA is NOT always correct never use it as fact. Example: See List of radio stations in Barbados which I myself put together because I know the CIA was dead wrong. Look at the CIA report on how many radio stations the United States' CIA (thinks) are in Barbados[1] and then see that list. There is one station missing from the list I made to be even more accurate and that's the CBC's repeater FM channel. Eventually you learn the CIA factbook is hardly worth using. Again on the CIA's page about Barbados look at the Map carefully... In error it says the WEST-coast of Barbados is the "Caribbean Sea". when infact the Caribbean Sea lies to the west of Saint Lucia and Saint Vincent. Barbados is actually located purely in the Atlantic Ocean. Additionally it is 441 Sq. Km. (I'm waiting on confirmation on this from the Prime Minister's office because the Habour dredging added a huge amount of filled in land to the island so Barbados may not be "431" anymore since 1960's I think. CaribDigita 01:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm. Thanks a lot for that. Now that you mention it, I think the CIA's figure on the number of radio stations in St. Vincent may be off, evne though it's close.... I don't know where I could check the number of cell phones, though, or the number of land-lines...short of calling Digicel and Cable and Wireless and asking. Apart from that, I find the Internet penetration figure quite suspect. 8000 is rather low, especially if one counts people who use the Internet once a week or so, as the CIA says is sometimes acceptable.
What do you think should be done? Delete the dubious Communications information until we have good sources for them, or leave them as they are for now? ~ Hairouna 14:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The CIA info I think is ok for now.... CARICOM is rolling out a statistics site [2] that site is live however it is still in the works. Additionally the SVG government is still rolling out their own sites. http://www.gov.vc/ Amoung them the statistics site is also still currently in the works. [3]

P.s. There is also a site [4] which might have more stats but I can't get it to load on my PC at the moment.... CaribDigita 00:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Royal anthem

Since this seems to be in dispute, could someone provide a supporting citation that God Save the Queen has official status in St Vincent? Guettarda 02:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge none of the British monarcy stuff has any status within St Vincent --T-rex 09:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The person who first added the bit seems to be of the impression that it's a result of us being a Commonwealth State. According to the article on royal anthems, God Save the Queen is the royal anthem of the Commonwealth Realms. If that's true, then it's the royal anthem of St. Vincent and the Grenadines. ~ Hairouna 02:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

"If that's true" - that's really the crux of the matter. Is it true, and also, is it universally true (i.e., while it may be true in some countries, that doesn't make it true in all, and to have any official status in a given country, St Vincent in this case, wouldn't it have to have been given that status under StV law?)? In addition, the royal anthems page is unreferenced, so it it really doesn't have much weight. Guettarda 14:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Given the lack of evidence, I'm going to remove it again --T-rex 22:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed WikiProject

There is now a proposed WikiProject for the Caribbean area, including Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Caribbean. Interested parties should add their names there so we can determine if there is enough interest to start such a project in earnest. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vincent de Paul?

I entered St. Vincent into the search engine and got Vincent De Paul (The Saint). There was no mention of the Island on the page. I personally think St. Vincent should be linked to here... Opinions?

[edit] language of st vincent

there is no evidence or references supporting the claim that st. vincent's mother tongue is Vincentian Creole. please provide some. 71.63.105.37 (talk) 05:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right I didn't include evidence before 24 Feb. I did soon after though but it was deleted by T-rex. I'll post it again here.

  • Ethnologue entry for Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
  • Holbrook, David Joseph. 2006. The classification of the English-lexifier creole languages spoken in Grenada, Guyana, St. Vincent, and Tobago using a comparison of the markers of some key grammatical features: a tool for determining the potential to share and/or adapt literary development materials.‭ Ph.D., The University of the West Indies. xxi, 418 p.

You can see in the Ethnologue entry that the number of speakers of Vincentian Creole English is much greater than the number of English speakers. Nrp0450 (talk) 20:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That number is not even close. Ignoring for a second the fact that there aren't that many people in the country to begin with, any claim that says less then 1% speak english is not even remotely close to being correct. --03:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Those numbers are for mother tongue speakers, the mother tongue being the first language you learn as a child. Most Vincentians speak English, but it's not the first language they learn. As for the the numbers not appearing to add up, you may know that for most Caribbean islands at any given time half of the people that were born there are living in the US, Canada, or the UK. So they are mother tongue speakers but not part of the census population for the island. That may have something to do with it, I didn't write the Ethnologue entry so I don't know what's behind the numbers. (Nrp0450 (talk) 21:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

One might also consider consulting the American Anthropologist article by Roger D. Abrahams & Richard Bauman (1971) titled "Sense and Nonsense in St. Vincent: Speech Behavior and Decorum in a Caribbean Community" or the book Contact Englishes of the Eastern Caribbean (ISBN 9027248907) by Michael Aceto & Jeffrey Payne Williams (2003) for more information. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 14:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see also the CIA fact book entry for confirmation of the status of a second language derived from non-standard French. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually the CIA fact book entry backs up exactly what I've been saying all along. I've never claimed that these languages don't exsist, only that they are not widely spoken and that English is the primary language by a large margin --T-rex 19:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Then why the need to remove all reference to the language? Why didn't you just alter the statement to reflect that understanding instead of needlessly reverting the entry a half-dozen times? Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 20:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Because the vast majority of the paragraph is flat out incorrect. Also, I'm not 100% convinced that it is significant enough to mention on this page. --T-rex 21:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It might also be interesting to note a 2005 news article on the Official website of the Government of St. Vincent and the Grenadines mentions a workshop that "would look at the Creole language and teaching English as a second language." Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 15:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I should point out that the Official website of the Government of St. Vincent and the Grenadines is in English? But beyond that the article says nothing on the topic anyhow. While the (short) article is mostly on a different topic, and does include the line you quoted at the very bottom, if anything you should note the implication that the Creole language is not presently used. Once again, I am not trying to say that the language doesn't exist, but that English is the primary language of well over 90% of the nation's population. --T-rex 20:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, English is the official language of St. Vincent. Most locals speak a corrupted form of English ("Vincentian Creole") in informal situations, just like the article says. If you classify "Vincentian Creole" as a separate language (as Jamaican Creole apparently is) then it's most likely the primary language. Of course I don't know of any statistics to back this up, but if you've lived in SVG then you'd probably agree. -Roger (talk) 22:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Everything I've seen seems to point to this as being a separate language, rather than just an accent or "corrupted English", so that doesn't appear to be the case here. The problem is it is clearly not a well known language on the island at all. --02:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Everything I've seen seems to point to this as being a separate language
I don't know what decides that, but if Jamaican Creole is a seperate language then so should be Vincentian Creole. And if it is, then it's an English based language (again, like Jamaican Creole).
The problem is it is clearly not a well known language on the island at all
Absolutely not true. Everyone in St. Vincent has heard it, and virtually every local speaks it. -Roger (talk) 02:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
See thats where you are wrong. Everyone does not speak it. In fact close to (and possibly exactly) Nobody speaks it. Imagine the word nobody in bold if that helps you understand the situation. --T-rex 18:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Additionally I would like to point out the CIA world factbook does not mention Vincentian Creole, and instead lists the language as "English, French patois" with the additional note that "This entry provides a rank ordering of languages starting with the largest". In fact nobody has yet to point out a source that says other wise. --T-rex 19:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, several sources have been pointed to that said otherwise. For starters, the work done by SIL International, a team of language experts, has been cited in the article. Both of the other sources cited currently in the article say otherwise as well. In addition, one could look at People, Language & Religion page on visitsvg.com, which states "English is the dominant and official language of St. Vincent and the Grenadines. For everyday use, however, most Vincentians speak a local dialect, called Vincentian English or “Vincy” English." A local business, Bay Hill Apartments says "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines, locals speak an English dialect." Also the St. Vincent and the Grenadines Meteorological Service page lists English and Dialect as the languages. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 19:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, none have. Even the links in your last post don't even come close to saying that. Every single source listed either mentions that English is the primary language, or that anything else spoken is simply English with an accent. Do I need to walk you through it step by step? --T-rex 21:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what more you want.
Are you arguing that Vincentian creole doesn't qualify as a language? Or that no one speaks it anymore? What do you think about Jamaican Creole? -Roger (talk) 21:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I want to see a source stating that Vincentian Creole is more commonly spoken on the island then English. Or possibly a source that that shows that English is not the first language of 90% or more of the population. All I've seen so far is only an indication that Vincentian Creole merely exists. So far there is still no source provided by anyone that disputes my assertion that English is the primary language of more than 90% of the island. --T-rex 22:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Well you have sources that say locals speak a dialect of English so that's enough to justify a mention in the article. I don't have a source saying that more than 90% of the population speak it (although that would be pretty obvious if you ever lived there), but the previous reversions weren't claiming that anyway. And even if I did, you could still say English is the primary language since the dialect is based on English. -Roger (talk) 01:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
So are you saying that Vincentian creole is nothing more than an accent? --T-rex 02:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
As much so as Jamaican Creole. -Roger (talk) 02:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

T-rex... please imagine a tiny island where everyone that is born native to the tiny little island speaks the mother tongue of slparmly (I made that up). However, this tiny little island is not only heavily dependent on tourism, but is also very effective at education. Since the vast majority of this made up world speaks jaulrlgyis (I made that up too), all of the little children are also taught to understand and speak this language from a very young age, and it is the primary language taught once they go to school. Now... bring in two people... one a tourist and the second a language expert... ask them what is the primary language? Everyone will speak to the tourist in jaulrlgyis, but as the language expert does their study, they will soon find that the nationals have a different mother tongue.

No one is asking you to give up the precious fact that English is not only official, but is also primary. All they are asking is that you admit to the fact that multiple sources, including scholarly articles, books, websites, and first-hand witnesses attest to a second language that is indeed very common on the island. The only other thing that I ask is that you cease from labeling things with rv v when it fails to meet the Wikipedia definition of vandalism. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 02:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

So you are claiming the entire population is bilingual? And that they do so in the interest of the local tourism industry? Even despite the fact that tourism is a very small part of the nation's economy? I'm not really buying that. Also there are no sources that indicate that there is a second language that is "very common on the island". none at all, in fact. Can you actually bother to read the links you post? They don't support your position. --T-rex 14:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe if I use a chart you might understand... (using all of the sources in the article)

Source Text/Description Argument for English being the dominant and primary language in St. Vincent Argument for any other language to come close to being used by at least 10% of the nation
Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.) (2005). Ethnologue: Languages of the World, 15th edition. SIL International. A book on languages Mentions English first. Vincentian Creole is only mentioned as "Vincentian Creole English". Also states that the "creole used here is virtually gone"[5] It mentions Vincentian Creole English
St. Vincentians. everyculture.com. A website about countries. (is a bit of a questionable source to begin with actually) says "English is the official language of St. Vincent and the Grenadines. Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole, that combines elements of West African languages and French. West Indian Creole languages use object pronouns in the subject position. For example, a Vincentian might say, "Me going down town" for "I am going down town."" Says that "English is the official language", the only example of Creole given reads as broken English rather than as another language. States that "Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole" (is the only source to say so)
Country Fact Sheet on Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. A Canadian document similar in style to the CIA World Fact Book. States only that "English is the official language. Vincentian Creole English is also used." Lists English first, Vincentian Creole is only mentioned as "Vincentian Creole English" It mentions Vincentian Creole English
Background Note: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - US Dept of State US State Department info on the country Says "Language: English (official); some French Patois spoken" and also that "The country's official language is English, but a French patois may be heard on some of the Grenadine Islands." Says that English is the official language. Confines the use of French patois to parts of the Grenadines (The entire Grenadines is only 8% of the population) Does manage to mention a French patois
The World Factbook - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. The CIA world fact book. States that "This entry provides a rank ordering of languages starting with the largest" then lists "English, French patois" Clearly states that English is the largest language in the country. Lists a second language, although it clearly states that it is based on French
Bayhill apartments Some Hotel/Ad (clearly not a good source, but others seem to think it is) Says only "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines, locals speak an English dialect." Flat out says that "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines" Mentions no languages at all except English none
St. Vincent and the Grenadines Meteorological Service National Weather page. States that all info is taken from the US State Department and/or the CIA World Fact Book. As a result has the same info Lists English, with no mention of Creole or patois none

now that I've posted everything so you don't even have to RTFA can you see any reason to present Vincentian Creole (or anything but English) as the most used and primary one on the island? I have no problem with Vincentian Creole getting a mention, but the undo weight it is receiving is way over the top. --T-rex 15:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

  • "Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole," - [6]
  • "Most, however, normally speak a creole known locally as "dialect"; This would be unintelligible to the casual visitor, but it is based on an English vocabulary" - [7]
  • "English is the official language; in constant struggle with Creole, the local dialect spoken by most of the Grenadines and Saint Vincent population" - [8]
If you need more sources, there are 100,000+ in St. Vincent who'll confirm this. Until then, please refrain from reverting the article. -Roger (talk) 15:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I've talked to many people form St. Vincent (thats what started this mess). As for your links the second one, might help you a bit but I can't figure out where it was originally pulled from, the first one I've already addressed above, and the third doesn't say anything really. How come the most reliable sources we have (Would Fact Book and State Department) are the only ones that don't count? At least the nonsense about portuguese is out of the article --T-rex 18:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
"How come the most reliable sources we have are the only ones that don't count"
Because they're incomplete and Vincentian creole isn't officially considered a language. -Roger (talk) 19:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
T-rex - while your chart is helpful in laying out all the sources, it doesn't support what you have been trying to do, which is to remove completely the mention of the language, as well as the mention of its frequent use among locals. By the way, I edited some entries to better reflect what was actually said in the sources. I would be in total agreement if you were trying to remove something that says Vincentian Creole is the official or primary language, and I am supportive of removing mentions of French Patois, as that doesn't seem borne out by the most reliable sources we have.

Now, if you look carefully at the study done by SIL, you'll see they list the number of native speakers in parenthesis. What that suggests is totally in line with the analogy provided earlier, that the vast majority of the population, while they clearly speak English (based on your excellent original research), do not have English as their mother tongue. Rather, it is what they call dialect... based on English (not the French version which the study refers to as being virtually gone), but something more than an accent. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 20:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, try actually reading the source! I appreciate the fact that you are willing to at least realize that there is no French on the island, but that takes away all of your sources supporting anything besides English. I am not trying to remove all mention of Vincentian Creole or any such thing, but to prevent the article from presenting it as if it is the dominant language in the country. English is the dominant language in the region, and any mention of Vincentian Creole in the article needs to reflect that. --T-rex 21:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Please don't use rv v in your edit summary when undoing good faith edits. Not only have I read the sources, I've commented on them, and updated the chart to better reflect what they say. The article is in no way trying to present Vincentian Creole as the official or dominant language. Rather, editors have tried to reflect its status as a significant local dialect, which is borne out be multiple sources. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 11:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Please don't delete my comments again. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 13:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I have filed a report at Wikiquette alerts regarding the removal of my comments by T-rex. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 21:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)