Talk:Saint Peter's tomb

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My comment goes in here because from all that is said below, it's more or less clear none of you know very much about the subject. The article is poor, granted, but that's got little to do with POV. I suggest everyone interested in the subject should read JE Walsh's book in full - it's online and linked - before making smart comments among, inter alia, the animal bones involved, the Lateran skull, or the number of bodies. It's not like ignorance can't be cured. Don't take the Vatican's or Walsh's word for the matter, but *inform* yourselves. As for the 'sarcastic' link some one inserted, well, it's ignorant blather for anyone who actually knows something about the subject. This matter is an interesting archaeological story and trying to make fun of it in an uninformed way makes people sound like idiots. As the 'sarcastical' article, taken btw from a catholic-bashing site, monumentally sounds. For those actually interested in knowing the truth - yes, the Vatican believes those are the bones of Peter. Yes, the Vatican has no problem whatsoever with the animal bones. No, the Lateran skull is no problem either. Nor are the other bodies found in Peter's original tomb. Yes, the bones that the Vatican believes are Peter's are the same that people believed to be so since the 2nd century. Now, whether that belief was correct may be debated (but not here). The exact unfolding of events that led to the status of the site as found by archaeologists may be speculated upon (*That* is one of the most interesting parts - especially the idea that the tropaion was the first christian altar, once a wooden staircase is placed in front of it). But little of this has to do with the search for the 'tomb of Peter' from the moment one considers the 'tomb of Peter' is what the early christians believed it to be. But I suppose the possibility that the main religious building of a religious body is built on top of the tomb of its founder is too much for some. In a few centuries, I suppose even the historical existence of Constantine or Charlemagne may be made fun of. 81.84.44.78 (talk) 21:19, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Who is Guarducci, and why is she important, but not important enough to be mentioned after the second paragraph? 70.106.200.29 03:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


This article is highly POV - not surprisingly since it is taken from a Catholic encylopedia! In fact there is I believe considerable doubt as to the location of the two bodies, and outside Roman Catholic circles it is not even universally admitted that Peter ever actually went to Rome. The article is also out of date since it does not mention the more recent excavations at the Vatican that have discovered a skeleton considered by some to be possibly that of Peter. Finally it is surprising that there is no mention of the reliquaries hanging in the Lateran church that reputedly contain the heads of both Peter and Paul. rossb 21:31, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

it is not very well written either - clear english please cut the waffle

Contents

[edit] A Tomb believed to be that of Saint Peter is under St.Peters in Vatican

Yesterday, January 26, 2006, I went on the tour of the excavations under Saint Peter's in Rome that includes a visit to the alleged tomb of Saint Peter. Although this tour has a long wait-list, its existence is well-published in the popular tour guides of Rome, and it is no secret. The excavations were begun by Pius XI and continued by Pius XII. The Vatican provides guides who lead the tour and provide their version of the history supporting belief that the tomb is that of Saint Peter. The tour raises many questions, of course; but there is no doubt that the Church actively supports the statements of its guides.

The message is clear. The Church guides state that Saint Peter was crucified in the Vatican Hill area, and that he was removed to a tomb near the walls of Nero's Circus, outside of the city walls. The guides do not state that any specific set of bones found near the tomb are definitely those of Saint Peter, although various sets of bones were believed to be Saint Peter's at various times in the past.

At least two other sites are thought to be the resting place of Saint Peter. I would advise readers to do more research rather than accept the existing Wikipedia entry as even reasonably complete. -DB

For some retarded reason, this is a page about one persons (St Peters) tomb, yet for some reason it concerns many tombs. Im trying to do my bloody assignment and all i can figure out is that because sum retard just copy and pasted from a catholic website, A tomb was discovered by SUM roman during the late 200

[edit] I agree

I agreed with most of the negative comments above. I am not qualified to edit or add to this article though. I added a link to an article critical of the Vatican with regard to the research of the tomb and the remains. The article is sarcastic and perhaps not a great source but it seemed to be better than the Wikipedia article. I wondered if something about the view that St. Peter as represented by the Catholic Church is largely or entirely mythical and there is at least a reasonable chance that he may not be buried in Rome at all should be mentioned in this article.

Davefoc 07:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I disagree

"outside Roman Catholic circles it is not even universally admitted that Peter ever actually went to Rome..." you mean in anti-historical anti-Catholic circles (only) it is adamantly affirmed that Peter never went to Rome. There is as much evidence that Peter went to Rome as there is evidence that Jesus himself existed. If you disagree then I guess you'll need to find an unbiased historian who supports this notion. On the other hand, I suppose there should be a section in this article listing the objections. I suppose this could include the conspiracy theory that you mention.

By the way the later part of the article contradicts the first more-recent part. I suggest the existing last two sentences "There are those, however, who think that it would not be impossible... without result." be deleted or edited to reflect the earlier part of the article, given the Catholic Encyclopedia article (from which I assume these sentences were taken) was written before the excavations were carried out.

Atreyu81 04:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I took the old article and rewrote it without the extra "stuff" that seemed to stultify it. It had been directly copied from one or more web pages, which brings up a problem of copyright. I would like to brag that I solved this problem completely, but I kept some of the old article. This seemed to answer Wikipedia's request for a rewrite, so I deleted their message.

I left out the temporizing and personalities.

Also put in a few footnotes which it was missing. Student7 00:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] St. Peter never being in Rome

See St. Peter#Death, subsection "Death of Peter." Student7 19:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doesn't tell the whole story

This article doesn't mention that the bones were found to have been for three different people and some barnyard animals. It also doesn't mention Antonio Ferrua and the controversy sorrounding him. Bobisbob 01:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

If you have a written source from a scholar that you can quote with a footnote, go ahead. Lots of stuff on tv and anti-religious websites (etc.) that is quite bogus. Student7 03:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

How about these?:

[1] [2] [3]

Bobisbob 01:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I would go with the Catholic Reporter (2). The first article seems to have an axe to grind - he wants to prove that Peter was buried in Jerusalem, which has to be at least as hard, and most likely harder, to prove, than a Roman burial which was Christian tradition. I can't read enough of the Atlantic article to know what the author had in mind, but I presume he was covering the same material? Sure. Go for it! Clearly the dig was handled poorly from the start.
It's been known since the Middle Ages that there was enough splinters from "The Cross of Christ" to build a church! And enough nails from his cross to hold the church together! Having said that, clearly a better job could have been done with this excavation at the time. Student7 04:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I just want to put this information out for the editors to take note. It is strange that the article doesn't mention Antonio Ferrua's supposed discovery of a "Peter is within here" inscription. His discovery has been challanged but still, he is one of the main reasons why they think it was Peter's tomb. See here: [4] Bobisbob 16:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Bob. (Do you mind if I call you "Bob"?). It works like this - people come up with new material. They insert it in the text where other people will probably try to change it. What I am trying to say here is - YOU are the editor. It's all voluntary. You appoint yourself. If you want an appointment, here it is: "I hereby appoint you a Wikipedia editor!" Thanks for discussing it prior to insertion. We all know now what to expect. It isn't really necessary though. Just footnote it with the article you found. See article imbedded text for examples or Wikipedia:Footnotes for help. (The first time is a little scary. Don't worry. You can't mess it up beyond repair. At least I don't think so~  :) Student7 21:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I where to put the info and make it fit, plus I've been cutting down on editting lately. Bobisbob 21:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV article by atheists

Okay, it's hard to sympathize withOf Bones and Boners: St. Peter at the Vatican if you are a believer. So maybe this is a general question. The article in the Atheist is no more pov than articles in Catholic pubs, right? And those are used. The material appears to have been edited. I guess my pov (!) is we either need to delete the "see also" for cause (pov? lack of scholarship?) or leave it as unqualified as before.

Frankly, I don't care if they are all chicken bones. It's no big deal folks. Big for the unbelievers, but everything is "big" for them. Misprints in the Bible, etc. For the believer, so what? Peter's grave is somewhere. Why not imagine him here? The people who don't want to believe he existed will find another reason to disbelieve even if there were DNA proof!  :)

So let's judge on the editorial merits. Student7 (talk) 01:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Good thing you asked. I was about to delete this reference out of hand. I though we had "solved" this a long time ago. I saw an article in a Catholic magazine that talked about chicken bones. I was looking for it to quote. Naturally, I can't find it now. We need a scholarly source for discussing these bones and a remark in the article about them. A Catholic source is okay for reporting they are there. However, if they are "explained away," (the article I saw did NOT "explain them away") a scholarly article remarking on the possiblities is needed (which will include wrong tomb). It definitely needs to be mentioned. Can delete the unscholarly atheist article once the issue is addressed IMO.
I personally have no problem with animal bones. Might be there for superstitious reasons. Graves most likely mixed between Christian and pagan. Christians most likely to still have some pagan practices at death. I think it gives great crediblity to an otherwise botched evacuation. There's hardly anyone who can't tell an intact human tibia from an intact chicken leg! If the finders were biased why wouldn't they have merely discarded the chicken bones when found? (assuming intact bones of course).
Sorry to be so little help. Student7 (talk) 21:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peter buried in Jersusalem?

This really needs to be deleted. There is no scholarly analysis supporting it. There are only references from a) atheists who only yesterday claimed that Peter and Jesus did not exist, and b) various Protestants with an axe to grind. The beliefs of either would not be questioned if the research and the periodical they are quoted in was scholarly. None are.

Second major point - the only way I can answer unscholarly claims is with similiarly unschooled answers! No one educated has bothered to answer these contrivances.

Third. Simon was the most common name of the era. So we have, in effect, a tomb that says "John, son of Bill." Wow! Proof positive? What more does an unbeliever need? Not much, I guess. Scholars need a bit more and so far that hasn't been forthcoming. This is a dead issue. There is no scholarly support for it.

In favor the Rome idea, we have the following.

Clement of Rome, in his Letter to the Corinthians (Chapter 5), written c. 80-98, speaks of Peter's martyrdom in the following terms: "Let us take the noble examples of our own generation. Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most just pillars of the Church were persecuted, and came even unto death… Peter, through unjust envy, endured not one or two but many labours, and at last, having delivered his testimony, departed unto the place of glory due to him."

Saint Ignatius of Antioch, in his Letter to the Romans (Ch. 4) of c. 105-110, tells the Roman Christians: "I do not command you, as Peter and Paul did."Student7 (talk) 01:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Peter's tomb in Jerusalem

I have added a subheading and restored the subject matter of Peter's tomb in Jerusalem, and have provided the earliest reference to Peter as bishop of Rome. The data and photographs of the ossuaries discovered in Jerusalem were published by Bagatti and Milik, experts in their respective fields, so there is a scholarly background to this subject matter.Wfgh66 (talk) 16:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I suppose. Again, "Peter, son of John" with John, as it is today, one of the most popular names around. Strange that the markings wouldn't suggest that the ossurary held the remains of someone that was held in reverence by the Christians. Nearly every other shrine in Jersusalem has graffiti on it from early pilgrims. As did the one in Rome.
I'm glad that "Peter, son of John" really turns somebody on. If "Channel 4" is anything like the History Channel, you can pretty well forget the truth. All done for bucks. Anything for excitement.
Next week at 10: Peter's tomb found in Antioch!
And who are we to sort out nonsense from the truth? Present the reader with every bit of nonsense around. Then let them attempt to determine the truth, if they are intellectually able. Student7 (talk) 18:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we should have a main article, "Saint Peter's tombs" with subarticles for each of the purported tombs as they are found. That should be sufficiently scandalous to please any unbeliever. As well as for all the Apostles, of course. Equal opportunity. Note that they have two separate articles for the purported places that Mary lived and died, Jerusalem and Ephesus, without any attempt to scandalize anyone. Student7 (talk) 18:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The Channel 4 documentary was presented by Dr Robert Beckford, who seemed to believe that the ossuary in Jerusalem was the last resting place of the Disciple Peter.

But I agree with Dr Albright: "I do not consider that names on ossuaries are conclusive evidence that they are those of the Apostles." It would take a lot more than an ossuary inscription bearing the name "Shimon Bar Yonah" to convince me that it referred directly to the Disciple Peter. But the archaeological discovery of the ossuary bearing that inscription did happen and there are folks out there who believe it to be the last resting place of St Peter. I wanted to see what references there were in Wikipedia to this subject matter after watching the documentary and found that there was nothing. Should references to this be omitted entirely? Wfgh66 (talk) 20:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It all comes down to whether the discovering priests were bonafide archeologists and not just amateurs or undergrads. If they have published in a credible journal, fine. We have to accept it. Their "Catholic" credentials are nonsense, however accurate. This is a bit pov since it implies some sort of validation. This is a vivid case of someone who makes a discovery who (by the way) belongs to "group x." Therefore coverage of their group x association is mentioned to confer additional validity. I believe that adjective alone is pov since it has nothing to do with the discovery. The church repudiates their findings. Their archaelogical credentials alone are under scrutiny here. Once they pass, the section (alas ) stays. Having said that, there is no reason it can't be moved to a separate article since the main reason for its presence here is to detract or feign equal validity with the Roman burial site, which has more history behind it.
Having said that, television's doctors and archaelogists don't count since they will say anything for a buck (in the US at any rate. Why should the UK be different?). So unpaid professionals count! Student7 (talk) 22:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks like I'll have to eat my words (again). Franciscans can be non-Catholic therefore it has to stay. Could be earlier in paragraph, but that's about it. Student7 (talk) 22:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The Franciscan Monks do not believe that the Jerusalem ossuary is that of St Peter. Beckford interviewed Franciscan Monk Professor Eugene Alliata of "Studium Biblium Franciscanum" who emphasised the official Catholic position.

The official line was that this could not have been the grave of Peter, he was buried in Rome. The paragraph in question is a quotation of Beckford's narrative from the documentary, so it cannot be altered if it remains in the article. Bagatti and Milik who documented the discoveries were bonafide archaeologists but they did not make any controversial claims. The section needs to stay in the article because it represents part of the claims made about Peter's tomb, irrespective of how inaccurate it may be. Impartiality needs to be maintained in this subject matter, being part of Wikipedia's Policies. Wfgh66 (talk) 23:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The paragraph is not worth preserving precisely. It's not like anyone reliable said "This is definitely not the tomb of Peter." which would be worth quoting. It just a second hand article. It needs paraphrasing so we can add to it and correct a slant probably intentionally put in by the writers. Student7 (talk) 21:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Another countering argument - the early church's Bishop of Jerusalem recognized Rome as the "first among equals," because Rome was founded by Peter. They believed Jerusalem church was founded, not by St. Peter, but St. James. None of this would make sense if Peter hadn't left Jerusalem. Student7 (talk) 22:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)