Talk:Saint Nicholas

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
WikiProject Saints Saint Nicholas is part of the WikiProject Saints, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Saints and other individuals commemorated in Christian liturgical calendars on Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to saints as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to saints. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Saints Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] old stuff

Reference: : Nicholas of Monmouth (also Nikolaus) in Lycia, Asia Minor (lived c. 270 - 345/352), was a 4th century bishop and is a Christian saint. His feast day is December 5, presumably the date of his monkey. Does anyone know what this means? Is it just stupid vandalism? I'd like to know.

[edit] monkey pie

Ban on chocolate cigarettes? Where? Do you have a source? --Dante Alighieri 13:08 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

http://www.dianawallismep.org.uk/news/2002/11/21002.txt.html Patrick 13:20 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)
That's pathetic! It would make more sense to ban toy guns. Or, better still, toy cars, the biggest killers in our society (well, not the toy cars of course). DirkvdM 20:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to merge this page with the page titled Nicholas of Myra. Dogface 22:52, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Santa Claus at Christmas?

The article says that many catholics in the Netherlands have adopted the celebration of Sinterklaas at Christmas. That's new to me and I come from a Catholic Dutch background. Also, discussions about racist elements of Zwarte Piet I understand, but sexist? DirkvdM 20:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm Dutch (and living in the netherlands), and we definately don't celebrate Sinterklaas at christmas. I don't think the article says that, though: it contrasts the celebration of christmas with the Saint Nicholas celebration and remarks that in the Netherlands, the Sinterklaas festivities are more widely celebrated than in the rest of the world. I'm not sure about the catholics/protestant remark though: in the Netherlands, the Sinterklaas celebrations are not percieved as a religieus issue; both catholics and protestants take part. OTOH, I think Muslims don't generally celebrate Sinterklaas. Baszoetekouw 21:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I've readded the deloite survey about the number of people who celebrate christmas and St. Nicholas' Even in the Netherlands. The results of this survey were all over the news yesterday, and are most definately not nonsense. They are taken from the left figure on page 8 of the report, as well as yesterday's Volkskrant [1]. Baszoetekouw 13:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Page 8 of the report? Do you mean the supplement? On page 8, If you add up the figures, you get 98%. 98%?? The Volkskrant says that the popularity of Santa (not Christmas) is at 93%. What on Earth does that mean? Does it refer to how many people know about him? Or think he's real? Or celebrate his ... ehm, what really? Anyway, Santa is just a rehashed Sinterklaas. The report is really based on estimates of spendings (on presents or what?). Not about celebration. What ever this report says or is about, it has to be nonsense that 93% of people will celebrate Christmas. Almost half the Dutch are not religious. And then there is a bunch of Muslims and what have you. So 93% or even 98%?? I will visit my mother at Christmas, but that's not celebrating. And no-one I know wants to have anything to do with Santa. He's generally considered a fake in my experience. This report being as vague as it is, it can hardly be used as a source. Unless it is quoted literally, and I cannot find a quote that supports what is now in the article. DirkvdM 09:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
fair enough Baszoetekouw 20:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

In Holland, the people lament that Sinterklaas is slowly losing ground to Santa Claus, the global version of St. Nick. It turns out they need not fear, because Santa Claus is an American version of St. Nick grown organically in NYC. The famous Clement Moore poem 'Twas the NIght before Christmas'comes in a long Dutch tradition of writing poems for Sinterklaas. The year before that poem there was another poem about Santa Claus, and Washington Irving's satire on the History of New York goes on and on about how the old Dutch gentry of New York are losing their tradition and celebrating St. Nicholas not on the 6th as they should, but at Christmas time. Also, St. Nicholas is the patron saint of NYC thanks to the Dutch founders. Around 1800, there was a change in the celebration of St. Nick from being on a horse, in the Dutch tradition, to being on a sleigh, in the scandinavian tradition. The Dutch trading ships brought many scandinavians to New York for their lumber skills for ship repairs. The Washington Irving book was written to drum up support for tradtional New York sentiments in the period before the war against the British (war of 1812). The British were stopped at Sacket's Harbor, and otherwise would have come down the Hudson to seize NYC. Jane 16:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. Nicholas

A very reliable book that quashes common World-Wide myths has given me reason to believe that St. Nocholas was de-sainted in 1945 CE(Common Era).

Which book would that be? Baszoetekouw 20:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

In which case Santa Claus would have to become Mr. Claus. :) Actually, there shouldn't ba an article on him at all becuase he doesn't exist (hope this doesn't disillusion you :) ). More seriously, the article is on the saint and the myth, not on the mister. DirkvdM 09:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I have no evidence to prove that it applies to this case, but often when I hear people talk of saints being de-sainted or removed from the list of saints they mean simply that the saint has been removed from the liturgical calendar. That doesn't mean he is no longer a saint! LovingIt!

According to the Website St. Nicholas Center: "The 1969 Roman Catholic calendar revision did remove forty saints, but not Nicholas."

[edit] Prostitutes?

Is St. Nicholas really the patron saint of prostitutes, or is that just some old vandalism that has gone unnoticed so far? Baszoetekouw 09:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I added it afer reading it on a website. Can't remember which one, though. DirkvdM 09:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

It is possible because during his live St. Nicholas helped some jung girl not to take the bad way. But is it commonly admitted? Adrian from Lausanne 13:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Google "patron saint of prostitutes", with or without 'nicholas', and you'll find some sources. Whether these are reliable is always another matter. DirkvdM 08:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

St. Nicholas is the patron saint of prostitutes, because he gave money to the father of three daughters as dowry to marry them off. The girls were virgins and St. Nick kept them from prostitution. Jane 16:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't St. Mary Magdelene, as a retired service provider in this profession, be the more obvious candidate for this rôle? --carlb 19:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Mary Madgalene was not a prostitute, despite popular misconeption. This idea began with a statement by Pope Gregory the Great, but has recently been denounced by the Vatican. Eastern Orthodox Christians have never considered Mary Magdalene to be a prostitute. There is even a legend that Mary Magdalene lived so pure a life that the devil thought that it might be her who would give birth to the Messiah, so he sent seven devils to torment her (Mark 16:9). The Church does not name patron saints for unrepentant sins. While Nicholas and Mary Magdalene are certainly saints that prostitutes--and the rest of us sinners--can turn to for their intercessions, patron saints for trades are intended to encourage good moral behaviour. MishaPan (talk) 17:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I have also heard that he is patron of prostitutes, per Jane. And for what it's worth, this lists three saints, though none of them St Nicholas, as patron of prostitutes: [2]. And my understanding is that patronages are not restricted to those named by the Church; its largely a matter of popular devotion, just as many saints from the time of St Nicholas have not been formally canonized, but rather were acknowledged by popular acclaim and later accepted by the Church in her calendar of saints. I was able to find 2 sites on a quick google search which say he is patron of prostitutes. They aren't models of sourced websites, but I think matters of patronage are going to be like that, as a rule. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I watched a documentary about St Nicholas about 2 yrs ago. The 'patron saint of prostitutes' was mentioned. It was said that the prostitutes of the town would wash their stockings and hang them out of their bedroom windows, (now I honestly don't know if they would have worn stuff like stockings?!). St Nick would wander though the narrow streets in the early hours, stretching up to push a few coins into each stocking in the hope that the girls would be able to buy food for a couple of days and so would refrain from working. This is also how the Christmas stocking tradition is supposed to have originated. Seems plausible. I think whatever the truth, there is enough contemporary anecdotal evidence of his deeds to be able to say that he was a Christian in the true meaning of the word and was a pious, kind and just man. ¬¬¬¬ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.67.74 (talk) 23:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Knecht Ruprecht

Can it really be true that Knecht Ruprecht sometimes will "actually eat the children"?

[edit] Splitting?

The article is getting a bit large. What about splitting it in two parts: one about the historical and religieus person, and one about the festivities and the holiday? Baszoetekouw 20:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I would love it if all the "Santa Claus" material was separated out. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Me too. The historical saint, and the folk mythology are two entirely different things. No intelligent person can think that the two are actually the same subject. MishaPan (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Mlouns (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor: Byzantine -> Roman

The opening paragraph stated that he lived in the Byzantine Empire. The term "Byzantine Empire" is used to denote a split from the Roman Empire although those that use this term have no general consensus on when the "Byzantine Empire" began. However, the earliest that most say is when New Rome was founded (330 CE). This would have been only shortly before St. Nicholas' death. Since "Byzantine" is a controversial term to begin with, and since clearly at the time Nicholas lived the empire was still very unified it doesn't seem appropriate to use this term to desribe where he lived. --Mcorazao 17:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian mythology?

User:Str1977 has methodically gone through articles included in the Category:Christian mythology removing them. This article was one of those removed.Perhaps not in the interests of the non-indoctrinated Wikipedia reader? I have no opinion in this particular case myself. --Wetman 09:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If the "mythology" here is supposed to apply to the Santa Claus stuff, then yes, of course. The hagiographical material? Well, some of it would be difficult at best to prove as historical fact, and any believing Christian ought, if he is honest, accept that anyone not of his faith would have a difficult time taking it seriously. Even if it were all literally true, "mythology" in the technical sense of a sacred narrative certainly applies.
On the other hand, some people cannot get past the connotation of falsity associated with the term and view it as non-NPOV for that reason. I think this is a mistaken reaction. TCC (talk) (contribs) 12:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
But that doesn't make it mythology. Mythology deals with deities (in Christianity only one) or supernatural beings. In this case, Nicholas is a matter of history, but also of legend, but not of mythology (and with Santa Claus, it depends whether you are talking about the traditional "Nikolaus" still expected on December 6 in many countries or some Father Christmas (but that is not actually the scope of the article, is it?). So legend? Yes. Folklore? Yes. Faith? Yes. Mythology? No.
Wetman's claims are wrong (I have not systematically removed them but only looked through the category removing those I thougt, for various reasons, inappropriate - I can classify them on the Category talk page, if you want to) and that he mixes in his usual insults against other editors speaks for itself. But I guees he has systematically posted this on the affected talk pages.
Str1977 (smile back) 02:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You will find nothing in the definition of "mythology" that requires it be about deities or supernatural beings, although since they are sacred stories they generally contain supernatural events. [3] And they often are historical, at least in origin, with an accrual of legendary elements. The salient feature about a mythology isn't truth or falsity, it's that it's a set of related stories. ("Myth" in the sense of falsehood is common, non-technical usage, but that's not what we're talking about.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I never aimed at the falsehood issue. However I do insist on the difference between a myth and a legend. In this case we have legends but not myths. Str1977 (smile back) 09:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Care to explain why, or are we just supposed to take your word for it? TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
No, don't just take my word for it. Listing to my arguments.
Anyway, I have a question: Do you think that saints should be included in the category in general? If so, why not include the Category:Saints as a subcategory? It doesn't sit entirely well with me but I could accept that.
15:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I did read your arguments, and countered them. So I really wish you would listen to mine.
No, not all saints should be listed under this category, only those whose traditional hagiographies contain a significant body of connected stories. "Story" is key word here. Mere biographical details wouldn't suffice. A certain amount of antiquity is also required: documentation of incidents in a saint's life written from living memory is not mythological, but stories where their origins have been forgotten are. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
It shouldn't be considered mythology--we Christians don't actually believe that Santa Clause is real, or that Saint Nick comes on the night of December 5th and fills our shoes with candy if we're good. We just think that it is fun to make up stories and add a little magic in one's heart. Christians believe in Jesus and God--not mythology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.7.25 (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US Celebrations

I must say that the coverage you have for the US is totally inaccurate. I'm not from Milwaukee, nor ever have lived close to it, but most of my Catholic and other high-church protestant friends celebrate St. Nick's day in every part of the country I have lived in (IL, CO, MI, IA). This should be rectified.

I'm from Cincinnati. It's mentioned in the article as being one of the towns where it's celebrated. That's accurate. Even in public schools here, the younger children would put their shoes out on Dec. 6th and have candy put in them. Millancad
I live in Toledo, and we celebrate it here a great deal as well.  hmwith  talk 16:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All of the Above?

The Wikipedia articles for Plechelm and Willibrord each claim them as the patron saint of the Netherlands. The Wikipedia article for Nicholas merely claims him for Amsterdam, but it used to claim the whole of the Netherlands, and web pages elsewhere still do. I'm thinkin' that there should be a |cage match. —SlamDiego 18:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rhetorical question?

I was looking through the article, and noticed this:

So was St Nicholas a working, albeit wealthy, man who complemented his day job with caring for his congregation, or was he a full-time bishop?

An encyclopedia is supposed to answer questions, not ask them. I'd advise rewritting this area in such a way that it shows that there are 2+ different theories. I'd do it myself, but I've been very busy as of late. Ghostwo 01:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Destroying pagan temples

The section on destroying 'pagan' temples, especially Diana's, in this modern age... really sounds like he destroyed some incredible art... almost like the Parthenon! Can we have some citations and sources with that? It seems to be a strictly a VERY catholic point of view presented here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pocketfulofseeds (talk • contribs)

New sections on the bottom, please.
I have to say this is not a tradition about him that I've ever heard myself. But if true, no, there was nothing else like the Parthenon. It remarkable for its perfect proportions ever since it was built. The temple of Artemis at Ephesus was remarkable for its sheer size, not its beauty. Beautiful pagan temples like the Parthenon got converted into churches. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] name

in the article Camauro they call St. Nicholas "St. Nicholas Thaumaturgos" and it liks to the St. Nicholas article is this right or this a diffirent saint i also found this ---------http://www.ets.ru/e/ut000026.htm please help so can find out if i need to correct anythingPaczilla007 22:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zwarte Piet Racist?

I noticed the article says "[black people]feel offended by the Dutch slavery history connected to this emblem and regard the Zwarte Pieten to be racist." I don't think this is correct at all. Sinterklaas is supposed to have come from Spain, Spain used to be occupied by the Moors, so Zwarte piet is a Moor not a slave. Hence the moorish clothing. I reckon that since Spain was in charge of the Netherlanfs until 1580, the reference to being taken back to Spain by Zwarte Piet as punishment for naughty kids is a reference to the former (hated and catholic) occupier.--Klaaswynne (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-martyr

Under Deeds and miracles attributed to Saint Nicholas, the article states: "One unusual aspect of Saint Nicholas' life is that he lived to an old age and died peacefully in his own bed. At a time when most saints died for their faith in manners most unusual and cruel, this made him stand out, together with Saint Martin, who also died of old age." Then, under Formal veneration of the saint, it says: "As described above, while most contemporary saints earned their place in heaven by dying for their faith in manners most unusual and cruel, both Nicholas and Martin lived peacefully to a ripe old age. At a time of Religious wars and Crusades the idea that one could go to heaven, even become a saint, just by the way one lived instead of the way one died must have offered a great deal of consolation for the Medieval common folk. Therefore, this time made Saint Nicholas a 'popular' saint in every sense of the word, more than all his miracles combined." This whole train of thought really needs to be either cited or removed. It smacks of Original Research. Nicholas and Martin both came at the end of the age of persecution. A multitude of saints--particularly monastic saints--who did not die as martyrs are celebrated from this time forward. It seems strange to point out these two in particular, or to say that there was anything unusual about their veneration as non-martyrs. I'd like to edit or remove these statements, but would like input from others before I do so. MishaPan (talk) 16:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. It smacks of OR, and by a person who really does not know the field. Mlouns (talk) 16:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Signed At Nicaea verifiable?

Under the section titled Life the article claims, "Nicholas is listed as a participant in the First Council of Nicaea." Is there a source for this? According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "There is reason to doubt his presence at Nicaea, since his name is not mentioned in any of the old lists of bishops that attended this council.[1]" Anyone know what the source is that says Nicholas was there? Θεόφιλε (talk) 01:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I looked in Butler's, which says the same thing as the source about him slapping Arius; it records this as being "according to other traditions". This comes after it says that Methodius records St Nicholas being an opponent of Arianism in his diocese, "but says nothing of his presence at the Council of Nicaea in 325." How about I incorporate this to show that it is unsure whether or not he was there? Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Well I presume this is agreeable; it should improve the matter, so I will be doing it shortly. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Replaced image of statue at Demre

Old image of statue.
Old image of statue.

I replaced the old image of the Russian statue of St. Nicholas at Demre (right) with the one that is now at the bottom left of the article. The newer image seemed to be clearer, even though it shows less of the statue than the old one. I put the old image here in case anyone thinks it is better. MishaPan (talk) 23:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wodan

What on earth does Wodan, Odin, have to do with Saint Nicholas, is everyone that has a big white beard connected to the One Eyed God. I can see the dwarfes relation to Norse mythology, but not to Hugin or Munin, nor the connection of flying reindeer to Sleipnir who DID NOT fly thru the sky. His name, according to our article, means "Slippery", "Smooth", "Gliding", which along with his 8 legs seems to indicate moving along the ground at a great and constant speed. The Valkyrie flew thru the sky. So, with all of this in mind, I'm deleting that bit of rubbish. Not to mention its lack of references and that its original research. Or rather it seems to be semiprotected, and I don't want to get an account again, someone who cares and has an account, delete the nonsense about his relation to the One Eyed Death God.

Yes, I agree. I'll remove it, and if anyone wants to re-add it with verifiable sources they are welcome to do so. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)