Talk:Saint Moluag

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[edit] Refs to incorporate

[1]

Should also resolve which churches recognize Aug 4th versus June 25th. Don't know if I've got the August 4th right or if this is a similar sounding saint that I've mistaken. Isoxyl 15:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

This site has better information: [2] Isoxyl 16:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feast Day

It is reported that St. Moluag's RC feast day is August 4th, but is that actually true? Is it celebrated formally in the church? Help with straightening out the June 25th vs Aug 4th day would be appreciated. If not, I may simply delete the Aug 4 reference, since it is confusing. Online research indicates copious representation of the June 25th day among many churches, even in the Orthodox Church. Other sites state the Roman Catholic holiday at Aug 4th. Is this true???? Isoxyl 16:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propagating Errors

As far as I can make out this reference to August the 4th is traced back to Saints of Scotland by Edwin Sprott Towill. Saint Andrews Press, Edinburgh, 1978. This is a Church of Scotland organisation. They also have this date on their web pages. I have contacted the Head office in George Street to ask them what authority or source they have for this and am awaiting a reply.

These references from the Annals of Tigernach and the Annals of Ulster confirm his death as occuring in 592.

T592.1 Obitus Lugdach Liss Móir .i. Mo Luóc.

U592.1 Death of Lugaid of Les Mór.

The Annals of the Four Masters gives 588 - but is not considered as authoritive regarding the Dalriads.

M588.3 Lughaidh, of Lis Mor, died.

http://www.aidan.org.uk/downloads/resource_worship_samples.pdf confirms my Scottish Episcopal Prayer Book which lists June 25th as St Moluags Day.

In a Lyon Court Judgement, in the Case of Livingstone of Bachuil on 21st December 1950 (published in Scots Law Times, December 29 1951), the Lord Lyon King of Arms found in fact, inter alia: That the co-arb of a Celtic abbot was heir of the abbot in his ecclesiastical functions and abbatical mensal territory. His Lordship found in law. That the petitioner, as heritable Keeper of the Bachuil Mor, alias Bachuil Buidhe, viz. the pastoral staff of St Moluag, is co-arb of St Moluag.

Alastair Livingstone of Bachuil, as Coarb of St Moluag, is therefore the living authority and his decision is that the feast day is 25th June.

This article has already been picked up my many other sources and the error is propogating fast. I have therefore amended the article.

Young Bachuil. 8 November 2006

Thanks, Young Bachuil! Much appreciated -- don't want any errors propagated based on this article, certainly! Isoxyl 14:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

St Lua of Killaloe and St Moluag of Lismore

Following on from the debate about St Moluag’s feast day I believe I have found the answer.

There are various Irish forms of Moluag’s name, such as Lughaidh, Luoc and Lua. Latinized they become Lugidus, Lugadius and Luanus. The name, as it has come down the centuries, Moluag or Moluoc, is made up of the honorific mo, plus the original name Lughaidh, pronounced Lua, plus the endearing suffix -oc.

Now according to D.H.Farmer The Oxford Dictionary of Saints 1978 there was a St Lua who died circa 609 whose Feast day is 4th August. He was supposedly an Abbot and founder of Killaloe in County Clare. According to Farmer almost nothing is known about him except he was a monk and possibly a hermit.

I believe that the catholic.org website is incorrect. It says “Abbot and disciple of St. Comgall, sometimes listed as Lugud or Molua. He was born in Limerick, Ireland, where he aided St. Comgall and reportedly founded 120 monasteries. He was also a hermit for a few years.” http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4321. Specifically I don’t think that he founded 120 Monasteries. This is not the activity associated with a hermit monk. It is my belief that they have picked up that St Moluag founded these monasteries from sources such as the Stowe Missal (see http://www.clanlivingstone.com/Stowe_Missal.htm)

Therefore I am of the opinion that we have a St Lua of Killaloe whose Feast day is 4th August and that through a chain of confusion this was misread by some as St Moluag of Lismore. St Moluag's Feast Day has long been recognised as 25th June.

Young Bachuil. 8 November 2006

[edit] FURTHER Errors

Whilst I welcome the interest on St Moluag I am concerned that there is a great deal of misinformation out on the web and that this is being propogated. In particular I very much regret some of the Edits made by Celtus. Two of the websites he references are demonstrably inaccurate.

For instance his edit "The origins of Saint Moluag are obscure, with some theorizing he was the son of a Scottish noble,[2] or alternately he was originally from Ulster and was a member of the Uí Néill[1] (like Columba)." and the source is based on two sites.

http://www.saintpatrickdc.org/ss/0625.htm#murl states "The blackthorn crozier (Bachuill Mor) of Saint Moluag is in the possession of the Campbells, dukes of Argyle, who traditionally carried it with them into battle. His shrine was at Mortlach." This is almost entirely wrong. The Bachuil Mor is in the Custody of my father The Coarb of St Moluag and Baron of the Bachuil. See here for a picture http://www.isleoflismore.com/St%20Moluag%20and%20Bachuil/saint%20Moluag%20and%20Bachuil.htm. There is no mention of Lismore - his first great community which he founded in 562.

The reference to http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=5153 is very misleading. It says "Scottish bishop and missionary, sometimes called Lugaidh, Molvanus, Molluog, or Murlach. The son of a Scottish noble, he was educated in Ireland under St. Brendan the Elder and evangelized the Hebrides region of Scotland. He died at Rossmarkie, Scotland. His shrine was at Martlach, and he is venerated in Argyll." When Moluag arrived in 562 "Scots" was a term applied to the inhabitants of Ireland. He evangelized not only the hebrides but the whole of the Pictish nation. "From Lismore St Moluag went on to found two other great centres in the land of the Picts at Rosemarkie and Mortlach. These were his three centres of teaching and it is significant that all three were to become the seats of the Roman Catholic Sees of the Isles, Ross and Aberdeen. Not content with these three colleges Moluag is also credited with founding one hundred monasteries, over which he had absolute jurisdiction. Many of these were in Pict territory, such as Clova and Alyth." see http://www.clanmclea.co.uk/Saint_Moluag.htm. This article makes no mention of Lismore - his main centre.

As my father is the Coarb of St Moluag (see http://www.burkes-peerage.net/familyhomepage.aspx?FID=0&FN=LIVINGSTONEOFTHEBACHUIL) I have taken a great interest in this Saint. I have written some of his history here. http://www.clanmclea.co.uk/Saint_Moluag.htm

In a Lyon Court Judgement, in the Case of Livingstone of Bachuil on 21st December 1950 (published in Scots Law Times, December 29 1951), the Lord Lyon King of Arms found in fact, inter alia: That the co-arb of a Celtic abbot was heir of the abbot in his ecclesiastical functions and abbatical mensal territory. His Lordship found in law. That the petitioner, as heritable Keeper of the Bachuil Mor, alias Bachuil Buidhe, viz. the pastoral staff of St Moluag, is co-arb of St Moluag.

Young Bachuil 14:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Young Bachuil, an authoritative source on his birth would solve the confusion. The source of the first site you complained about probably used a source written while Dukes of Argyll were in possession of the crozier.--Celtus 07:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What you say is very interesting and I think from what you say, you should correct the article. :)MRM 17:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Annals

I have removed the various references to the Irish Annals from the main page and placed them here. There is a great deal of conflicting evidence from the Annals. I believe that It is generally accepted that the Annals of Ulster are considered more reliable than the Four Masters when it comes to the subject of Dalriada. Certainly Carmichael writing in Lismore in Alba sides with the Annals of Ulster and on Lismore it is universally accepted that he died on 25 June 592. Young Bachuil 08:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


Lughaidh Lis Móir d'écc.[2]

Obitus Lugdach Liss Móir .i. Mo Luóc..[3]

Obitus Lugide Lis Moer.[5]

    • I have been following up some further references and it would seem that the Annals of Tigernach have been updated or corrected as an earlier version I have has these two entries:

T590.4 Obitus Lughdach Lis Moir.

T592.1 Obitus Lugdach Liss Móir .i. Mo Luóc.

Young Bachuil 15:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tasks Outstanding

There is a lovely stained glass window in Kilmoluag on Lismore which depicts St Moluag see http://www.isleoflismore.com/scenes/individual%20Albums/church%20windows/window.jpg. Now this photo is copyright but next time I am on Lismore I shall take a few photos to put on this site.I have now added a photo of the Saints Window.

Celtus has found two reputable sources in "A Calender of Scottish Saints" and "The Oxford Dictionary of Saints" which I had come across before. I would like to go back to their sources. I have mislaid my copy of Lismore in Alba which has a wealth of information on Moluag. Much of it is unreferenced but Carmicahel does give a bibliography which includes one of Reeves books. D. Reeves, British Culdees may be a worthwhile source if anyone can find it.

In Lismore in Alba Carmichael gives Moluag's ancestry as follows -

Fiacha Araidhe a quo Dalaraidhe
Fodan
Lucht
Moluoc or Molucus

Fiacha Araidhe was 37th King of Ulidia (Ulster). When Moluag died in 592 he was described as an old man. His birth may have occurred somewhere between 500 and 520. However, I believe that Fiacha Araidhe died AD 236. Normally one would allow 33 years a generation so it looks as though about 6-7 generations have been omitted from Carmichael's pedigree.

I have also heard it said that Moluag was patron Saint of the Isle of Man. http://www.isleoflismore.com/images/history/history.htm and http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/pn1925/mw.htm "IN this parish two saints have been confused from the beginning of the 15th century, St. Lupus and St.Lua or Molua, whose dedication dates were July 29 and June 25 respectively." Lismore and the Isle of Man were both considered to be part of the Norse Sudreys so this is quite possible given the "sea highways" of those days.

Young Bachuil 08:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)