Talk:Sailor Uranus/Archive 01

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Ten'ou vs. Tennou

Also, 天王 is a special case which is actually pronounced "Tennō", not the expected "Ten'ō". See eg. Tennoji. Jpatokal 02:52, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I thought that too, at first -- but her name is in fact てんおう. Or at least that's what the furigana read. (There's a whole paragraph explaining this on her character page, actually.) No, the reason it's particularly bad in her case is that Tenou is the most popular spelling. Which is, er, wrong. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 04:26, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
AFAIK, 天王 is always pronounced "tennō". How you render the furigana depends on whether you think "tennō" is a legitimate gikun, or if it's merely a corrupted pronounced form of a theoretically correct "ten'ō" (see prescriptive grammar). I would go for the first option. Jpatokal 05:05, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
... no, I do consider tennō a legitimate gikun for the word. But the name is consistently glossed Ten'ō in all sources (and a quick Google scan seems to indicate that it's not only true for this character). The only relevant hit Google gave for "てんのう はるか" (amongst, amusingly, a large number of references to Tennoji) was a dispute where, er, someone had got it wrong. Also, and highly relevantly, Ten'ōsei is listed in both Koujien and Sanseido for the planet. You might want to actually read the first bit of the article.
... besides, just because it's pronounced "Arkansaw" doesn't mean it gets written that way. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 07:38, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
I've read the article and understanding the reasoning of the second camp, but Kōjien is about as prescriptive and stick-in-the-mud as they get (did you know they list meanings in historical order, not by importance?) — and I find it amusing that The Authoritative Reference and a bunch of otaku discussing anime agree on this. I'm just afraid that people will now start mispronouncing her name as "ten'ō", which kind of defeats the point of nifty macroned Hepburn pronunciation guides, now doesn't it? Your Arkansaw argument also doesn't cut much water, because the correct spelling is 天王, and now you're basically saying that a pronunciation guide next to "Arkansas" should say are-can-zaz despite the fact that it's not actually pronounced that way. Jpatokal 15:36, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ahhhh, I see where we actually differ on this now. I don't typically see the Hepburn as being a pronunciation guide; as I've mentioned before, anyone who can see karaoke and read carry-okie is probably beyond the help of romaji in general. Rather, I consider it more useful as a gloss of the proper reading of the kanji in question. (Which is why I personally prefer wapuro-style, but eh.) Originally I thought that the kanji of her name were unglossed, or inconsistently glossed; the bit after the kanji then used to read "Ten'ō or Tennō Haruka". As for the bunch of otaku and The Authoritative Reference agreeing, well, one of them was citing the other -- guess which -- and ten gets you twenty the author had a copy of Koujien at her desk when she wrote that.
(some hours later) So it turns out this whole argument is moot: I found someone who had a copy of Sailor Moon Episode 92 and listened to it. It's pretty clearly not phonetically [n]; it's [ɴ] or [ɤ̃] or however you want to write that stupid thing that ん defaults to. In other words, it's pronounced exactly as it's glossed, not like the 天王 in 天王寺. I suppose I shouldn't really be all that surprised. (Amusingly, this means that attempts to make it Tennō are thus prescriptivism! (Counterprescriptivism? Retroprescriptivism?)) --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 20:47, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
Err, it will use the sound ん in either case, the difference is whether it sounds like "n'o" (no more 'n' after the glottal stop) or "n'no" (n continues after stop). Jpatokal 07:27, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
(resetting indentation --Aponar Kestrel)

... nnnnnno. There's no glottal stop (that is, [ʔ]) in either Ten'ō or Tennō. Disregarding the ō, there isn't even a phonemic lengthener in either one. (Although there is a phonetic lengthener in Tennō.) ん isn't a sound; it's a kana, a grapheme, a mora, and a phoneme. It's subject to regular assimilation rules. See especially Japanese language#Phonology.

Ten'ō is phonetically /tɛn̩oː/ and phonemically [tɛɤ̃oː]. Contrariwise, Tennō is phonetically /tɛn̩noː/ and phonemically [tɛnːoː]. In other words, there isn't an [n] in Ten'ō at all, nor is there an [ɤ̃] in Tennō.

(Incidentally, this comes out ugly almost to the point of unreadability on my system. I wish I could at least use LaTeX for IPA... the closest I can get is / t \varepsilon \dot{n} o : / and [ t \varepsilon \tilde{\gamma} o:], which isn't at all good enough.)

Additional references:

--Aponar Kestrel (talk) 02:59, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC) (I can . Hmm. No.)


"Amara" in the main article should be changed. It was done by 71.1.200.88 and is wrong by Wikipedia standards of naming. 70.21.109.29 has removed all references to homosexuality. The Sailor Neptune article has the same problem.

Could someone please revert this? I'm not up to it right now. Ken Arromdee 06:58, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Minako?

Isn't it Makoto who showed attraction to Haruka (or at least something which was interpreted as attraction), not Minako? Ken Arromdee 02:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I second this based on what I've read online, but I haven't seen that part of the series myself.

Well, both Minako and Usagi were attracted to Haruka when they thought she was male rather than female, but Mako-chan developed a (temporary) crush on her in the episode "Cold-hearted Uranus? Makoto in Trouble". Sergeant Snopake 16:25, 09/03/06

Leader of the outer senshi

"Haruka and Minako are like leaders to their own team of senshi; both inner and outer. Both have blonde-ish hair color and they also love gym. This can explain Mina's love and passion for volleyball and Haruka's love for track and run."

Haruka is not the leader of the outer senshi, is she? I thought it was Pluto or Saturn.

Apperently, I read that Pluto is the leader of the outer senshi, as she is supposed to have said so in episode 171, though I have not got this far in the the series yet. however, in the manga, Minako really is leader of the four the senshi that protect the princess, or so i've read here: http://www.rahul.net/arromdee/sm.faq.4 Sergeant Snopake 17:10, 15/03/06

Haruka's sexuality

On Michiru's page, it says, for her sexual orientation: Homosexual or bisexual (debatable). However, it was she who was in love with Haruka first (watch episode: "The Bond of Destiny! The Distant Days Of Uranus" for details), and yes, Haruka is in love with Michiru now, but we don't know what her orientation was before she met Michiru. I have edited as such.". Sergeant Snopake 12:35, 09/03/06

If she flirts with girls now, chances are she always has flirted with girls in the past. Therefore, asides from the fact that she is now in love with Michiru, we can safely assume that Haruka is gay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.212.155.211 (talk • contribs) .
We can't make that kind of assumptions, it is original research, which Wikipedia does not accept. -- ReyBrujo 16:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Naoko Takeuchi has said Haruka and Michiru are homosexual. Not bisexual, homosexual. There is no debate. Danny Lilithborne 20:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

nuptune said in sailor moon sailor stars amime that she dont "trust men" and famous men Sailor cuteness 16:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Foreign names really needed?

Please discuss here whether to include foreign names when they do not match the english name. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 03:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Princesses Article

Just so you all know, I've made a new article at Princesses (Sailor Moon). The merge notices are gone now, because that group of stubs has been cleared up. Now that it's done, please feel free to edit and cite to your heart's content! ^_^ -Masamage 20:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Consistency

This article is being edited for consistency with the Ami Mizuno, Rei Hino, Makoto Kino, and Minako Aino articles, as part of the new WikiProject, and as discussed in Talk:Sailor Moon. Stay tuned! --Masamage 18:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Mostly done, as are Michiru Kaioh and Setsuna Meioh. I'm still planning on rewriting the 'Profile' and 'Variations' sections, but will take something of a break first.
The Outer Senshi profiles really need new lead images. If you check out the Inners bios, they all match; we're looking for a set with that kind of consistancy and quality, if it's at all possible. Please look around! --Masamage 19:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

External Links

Why not have a link to Sailormoon-universe.com ?--Aeronox 11:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

One reason is that there's embedded music in all the subpages, which starts playing automatically. A lot of people find that really annoying. My main reason, though, is that the subpages don't look like they have any information that we don't already plan to have here, which is number 1 under Links normally to be avoided. --Masamage 17:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
"Plan to have" and "have" are different things. Point conceded about the embedded music.--Aeronox 16:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they are very different, but if you read the page I linked, you'll find that "plan to have" is indeed #1. "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes a Wikipedia:Featured article." --Masamage 20:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The existing "Featured Articles" and "Good Articles" for the Anime/Manga project do not currently have a 'character'-type page; where can we see what information you "plan to have" on Sailor Uranus' page? Do you plan to include things like "Favorite Gemstone: Amber" and "Favorite Food: Salads"? If not, then sailormoon-universe.com is permitted to be linked. I'd also like you to justify the inclusion of "http://www.eternalsailormoon.org/destined/".--Aeronox 13:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Now that is an excellent, excellent reason. If it weren't for the noise, I'd be convinced. Over at Talk:Minako Aino we've figured out an actual source for those statistics; if we can find a website that is high quality, has those stastics and is clear about their source, that would be gold. Of course, there's other stuff currently in the stats section which will need to be worked into prose so it's not lost.
As for EternalSailorMoon.org, my explanation is that I've never bothered to visit it. :P If it looks bad to you, remove it. --Masamage 19:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Although I'm not the webmaster at Sailormoon-Universe.com, I am a friend of his. I've asked about his source for the bio statistics: "Anime Album Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon S vol.1" Nakayoshi Media Books, 15/08/1995 (and the rest).--Aeronox 07:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC) (I keep forgetting my siggy :P)
If we were to link to that website, which seems pretty solid, it would need to A) state its source (and I would personally very much prefer to use manga volume 10 if at all possible), B) not have auto-starting music, and C) be approved by consensus. I'm not sure, but I think adding a friend's page might be a conflict of interest. --Masamage 07:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I was able to reference the book itself, and went ahead and added it to all pages that needed it. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 01:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


Generally I think this way: If we can cite the original source for whatever reason, then do it. With the stats, I've been efficiently going through and adding the original manga references (anime too). If there is a piece of lore we need to back up that wasn't in an interview or other primary source, but is generally accepted and right, then we might cite that one, for example, the heights, the original person who guessed at the heights based on Usagi's needs to be cited. Primary sources over secondary. In the case of Eternalsailormoon. That site has been around since before 1997, It was around for a long, long time, won several awards. I've checked the information, checked for sources and done extensive check of the site--it is not a bad site to go to, plus it has information that I cannot readily access otherwise (such as color pictures of the Parallel Sailors)--it has immediate recognition among the older SM fans as a reputable site to go for GENERAL information. Like Oracle, but more comprehensive. Jackie Chiang is also good at answering questions about the fandom, and in general would be able to handle it. She used to be recognized immediately right after Hitoshi Doi as a good comprehensive site. I do not link friend's websites or my own unless that's my last, last choice. Even then I ask permission and try to get around it with all the power I have. Also when I link sites, I try to find sites that cite their primary info on site, or where the web master is willing to A. say where they got it and remember. 2. Make changes to the cite when they realize they have mistakes. I also try to look for sites that have valuable information beyond what is being cited on the site. If they click the link, I need the site to be clean and pleasant enough so that they can learn more right info on the series that isn't controversial, or has the opinions clearly marked. Jackie Chiang has that in spades and updates frequently. Manga Style and Sailor Music also cite their sources or give primary info. So Eternal Sailormoon is linked because it's well-known and prestigious, and probably out dates your friend's page by a decade or more. (The domain isn't as old, but the site and contents are)

I'm about to edit stats adding primary sources to the fold, and one I cannot cite without a person involved. Secondary sources are too easy to dispute. Again, some sources will be missing, just because I haven't gotten to looking through the manga. >.<;; Tuxedo Mask will be a pain. Note: I really like that image of Sailor Uranus... I wish we had matching ones for Neptune, Saturn and Pluto. >.<;;--Hitsuji Kinno 05:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)