Talk:Sabiha Gökçen

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[edit] Speculative Article

She is claimed to be Armenian and the reference is a an Armenian newspaper in Turkey! Do you think that newspapers are reliable scientific sources? Are you kidding or wikipedia is just a silly forum? She always mentioned how she is proud to be the first female combatant aviator and Turk! I think one day, even Ataturk will be shown as a non-Turk in this site. Who is moderating this article is a stupid or propagandaist?

Look at Turkish coffee for example, I have been banned for 3R Rule becouse a greek "friend" was injecting a claim which was "the first turkish coffee shop opened by greeks", and citate 500 years before with some greek shop web sites, the statement remained. Wikipedia about non-scientific articles is just a place for nonsense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Utku a (talk • contribs) 05:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Armenian

I read in another part that she's of Armenian decent. Shouldn't this be added? --83.134.110.242 12:35, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

No need to write it because it's not sure. And it doesn't change anything about her race.

I have an interview script in which Sabiha Gokcen is claimed to be Armenian and I have another source in which the author proves the inaccurateness of the claims in the interview. When I have time, I will translate both and put them into discussion page, however since we do not know which one is true I propose not to add anything into the article regarding her ethnical background. -Cansın 3.00, 30 May 2005



Zeitungsdossiers in der Türkei

[edit] Armenian claim

these Armenian claims are baseless because official claims show her birth place as Bursa. Even herself says she is the daughter of the Turkish officer. If you cant count the biggest newspaper in Turkey as a source, we also should have a problem about the neutraltity of the smaller Armenian claims. You dont have a right to count what you want to believe and Not what is right. this is the version that should be there:

Sabiha Gökçen (March 21, 1913, Bursa - March 22, 2001, Ankara) was the first Turkish female aviator and the first female combat pilot of the world. She was one of the eight adoptive children of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Some modern sources claim that she was of Armenian origin (like the claim of Armenian Agop Newspaper published in Turkish newspaper Hurriyet from 21. Feb 2004), but this is disputed by a lot of official sources including herself who claims she was the daughter of the head clerk Hafız Mustafa İzzet who was exiled to Bursa by Sultan Abdulhamid II. The official documents testify her claims.[1],

85.101.57.181 05:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course "offical claims" aren't going to say she was Armenian. How about this source? It's from the U.S. Dept. of State. And I quote:
In February, the Hurriyet newspaper's publication of a report that Sabiha Gokcen--an adopted daughter of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who was the country's first female pilot--was of Armenian descent drew a number of racist public statements. The Turkish General Staff issued a statement criticizing the reports on Gokcen's Armenian ancestry as "a claim that abuses national values and feelings" while the Turkish Air Association called the report "an insult" to Gokcen and to Ataturk.
—Khoikhoi 05:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
again it gives a reference to "unneutral" hurriyet newspaper so i guess you are going to have to remove that. Also if you count hurriyet, you have to give the whole story not just cut one part that you like of it. This is meaningless since she herself states she was not an armenian and the article in Hurriyet is writing that too along with official records. 85.101.57.181 05:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, hurriyet has been removed. Anything else you're not happy with? The fact is that the Armenian claims are notable, and deserve to be mentioned regardless whether it's true or not. After all, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". —Khoikhoi 05:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
the thing is, the claims insist that she wasnt born in Bursa, but she says she was and the official records show her parents. Even her sister made an announcement blaming the armenian claims,yet i cannot put them here coz you dont count a turkish newspaper but an armenia newspaper called Agos? all these conspiracies couldnt be done by the armenian Agos newspaper when she was alive and they say they didnt do it "not to offend her". They also had said she was against Ataturk and stuff(lol), people talk specially if you are in a country like Turkey but you have to base it with solid evidence. 85.101.57.181 05:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I see what you mean, that's why we're not basing the article off the claims, but just stating what they are. Anyways, how do you know that the sources I provided (BBC & US Dept. of State) get it from Agos? Heh, I'm not sure why they'd say she was against Atatürk—I have to get some sleep. —Khoikhoi 06:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
ok ive found her own autobiography where she states she is the daughter of Bursa Provincial head clerk Hafız Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. If we are going to give both sides we should give that too. Metb82 08:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You are completely right. Her parents were Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. The baseless claim that she is armenian is made by an armenian nationalist Hrant Dink who is known for making far fetched statements. There is no proof for it whatsoever. Records show she was born in Bursa to Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. She herself verified it several times over. It is just another cheap attempt by some people to claim a famous person as their own

"Im as Turk as Ataturk" - Sabiha Gökçen (http://arama.hurriyet.com.tr/arsivnews.aspx?id=204528) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.246.43.81 (talk) 11:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] citation needed

There is a paragraph which lacks of references. I searched for sources but could not find any reliable one. Maybe better to remove this part. E104421 08:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hans-Lukas Kieser

I searched for the following reference given in the article: "Dr.Hans-Lukas Kieser (Swiss): Verlierer der postosmanischen Ordnung (written in:"Enteignet, Vertrieben, Ermordet. Beiträge zur Genozidforschung", Chronos Verlag 2004 Zürich, ISBN 3-0340-0642-X) Dr.Hans-Lukas Kieser writes about Sabiha Gökçens Armenian origin and others of her", but could not find any relation with Sabiha Gokcen [[2]]. Is there anyone to be sure about the validity of the reference? or is this the reference given in Agos? or not? E104421 23:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll do some research on this and try to get back to you. There's a pretty interesting discussion about her ethnicity at the German Wikipedia (I believe they mention Kieser). You can try translating it through AltaVista if you want. Khoikhoi 00:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Please delete the reference number 4, Hans-Lukas Kiesers book is not trustworthy and was also deleted in the german wikipedia. --134.155.99.41 11:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
How is it not trustworthy? Khoikhoi 06:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The official sources provided information on Sabiha Gokcen's identity, but the disputers could not dent. I had posted a comment above two months ago about the Hans-Lukas Kieser reference, but nobody provided anything. I'm repeating the same again, is it trustworthy or not? Otherwise, this is just misleding people. I already checked the German Wikipedia and it's removed from German Wikipedia. In addition, there is no such claim in French Wikipedia, too. If you are to dispute something, you should at least provide sources other than the newspaper content. I know disputing is easier than contributing, if that's your aim. Regards. E104421 08:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if she was Armenian or not, there are sources that say she may have been Armenian. The Turkish government disputes this claim. I'm not sure what's wrong with saying that... Khoikhoi 19:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
If there are reliable sources, then you should provide these sources. As an admin, you should know that Wikipedia is not a place for original research or speculative newspaper content. I'm removing these speculative original research. You may put them back if you provide something reliable. Regards. E104421 07:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not original research when I provide sources. 15:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The sources should be reliable sources, not the speculative original research material. You never explained why you pushed the Hans-Lukas Kieaser reference. Probably, you never checked that reference. Otherwise, you would make a quotation from the source into the talk/discussion page to clarify your dispute. Khoikhoi, you're pushing your dispute in a totally impolite way, since i wrote the comment on the validity of this reference two months ago, but you never explained what's written there. That's why i removed that ambiguous reference as the Wikipedians of German and French Wikipedia do too. Regards. E104421 08:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't really understand how this is original research. Anyway's, here's a quote:

Altinays Buch ist in drei Teile mit je zwei Kapiteln gegliedert. Der erste analysiert einen durch militärische Vorstellungen geprägten Begriff von Nation, dem auch das Frauenbild zu gehorchen hat. Eine „moderne Türkin“ diente 1937 als weltweit erste Kampfpilotin. Zwei Aspekte machen den Mythos von Sabiha Gökçen, wie die Pilotin und Adoptivtochter Atatürks hiess, höchst fragwürdig. Erstens warf sie Bomben ab auf „innere Feinde“, nämlich auf Bergdörfer weitgehend wehrloser alevitischer Kurden (mit Ausnahme des Koreakriegs und der Zyperninvasion von 1974 schoss die Armee der Republik nur auf „innere Feinde“). Zweitens war Atatürks Adoptivtochter ein armenisches Waisenmädchen - schwer zu verstehen, warum Altinay diesen seit Anfang 2004 bekannten Aspekt in ihrer Endredaktion nicht noch berücksichtigte. Die armenische Abstammung passt gar nicht zu einer wichtigen Aussage der Türkischen Geschichtsthese der 1930er-Jahre, dass nämlich die türkische Nation auf Grund rassenanthropologischer Eigenschaften zum Kriegsdienst und zur Staatsgründung prädestiniert, ja „als Soldat geboren“ sei. Gökçen, die armenische „Vorzeigetürkin“, verinnerlichte die Maximen ihres Adoptivvaters so sehr, dass sie in ihren Memoiren die türkischen Frauen als soldatische Töchter einer soldatischen Nation beschrieb. Zu ihrer Enttäuschung blieb ihr Einsatz jedoch eine Ausnahme; das Recht eine militärische Karriere einzuschlagen erhielten Bürgerinnen der Türkei - weiterhin ohne generelle Dienstpflicht der Frauen - erst in den 1990er-Jahren. Afet Inan, eine weitere Adoptivtocher Atatürks und grosse Verfechterin der Geschichtsthese, verfasste unter Anleitung ihres Adoptivvaters ein Schulbuch mit dem Titel Staatskunde, wovon ein Teil Colmar von der Goltz' Schrift „Das Volk in Waffen“ (1883) bzw. dessen osmanische Übersetzung aus dem Jahre 1884 resümierte.

You do the translation - it clearly says she was "an Armenian orphan girl". Khoikhoi 09:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have been watching this only from a distance so I don't know exactly what's going on. Is the problem with the reliability of the sources? Who is Hans-Lukas Kieaser? Baristarim 09:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I checked the Khoikhoi's link. Just a speculative Anti-Turkic propaganda. There is nothing more than original research there. What the mainstream of historians/scientists support is important for an encyclopedia. If you're interested in conspiracy theories or Anti-Turkism, you should carry this dispute content there. Maybe better. Regards. E104421 09:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of what you think of it, it's still verifiable, and definately not "original research". If you want to say that mainstream of historians disagree, then prove it. I cannot understand why saying she might have been Armenian is anti-Turkish, but whatever. Khoikhoi 09:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Please, do not mix my statements. I said the page is pushing Anti-Turkic content. On the other hand, you are pushing the dispute, you should provide reliable sources to support this claim. There are many sources in the world pushing speculative original research, should we carry them all to Wikipedia? You're just interested in these kind of things rather than logical/rational ones. Even Sabiha Gokcen herself declared and clarified her parents in the interviews. Regards. E104421 09:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure my source meets WP:RS, if I'm wrong, please explain why. You also claim my source is original research, but if you look at WP:NOR, the "page in a nutshell" states, "Articles may not contain any unpublished arguments, ideas, data, or theories; or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position." Is my source unpublished? No. Is it a synthesis of sources? No. What's wrong with just giving both sources and letting the reader decide if she was Armenian or not? Isn't that how WP:NPOV works? It's not our job to sway the reader towards one POV or the other. Khoikhoi 09:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a biography page and your speculative original research source does not reflect any consensus of the mainstream of the field. Furthermore, the article is not nominating her identity to the voters. There are many published speculative sources which reflects POV push and original research. These cannot be used to support a claim. For example, you cannot push Hitler's Mein Kampf to support Anti-Semitism. What you're doing here is analogous to this example. Don't do it. It's not a rational/logical way. Regards. E104421 10:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP only applies to living people. Secondly, even if it doesn't reflect the "consensus of the mainstream", it's not like I'm saying it's an undisputed fact that she was Armenian, I'm just saying she might have been. Saying the source is "speculative" is just your opinion, as it's a published work and as I said already, a verifiable one. Do you really think the man would just say she was Armenian without looking into it? Khoikhoi 10:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a single original research does not make her identity disputed and cannot be used. As in the case that Hitler's Mein Kampf cannot be used even it's a published source. Just like that. Your source was removed from German and French Wikipedias. Have you ever think why these speculations started after her death? The answer is simple: Sabiha Gokcen herself clarified her real parents in the interviews. Regards. E104421 10:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not "a single" source, I cited the BBC as well. Also, you have still failed to explain to me how it's original reserach (instead you compared it to Mein Kampf...). As for that last thing you said, do you really think someone who is adopted is going to be 100% sure on who her parents really were? Khoikhoi 10:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
That depends on the person's memory. She was adopted when she was 13 not as in your source as 5. On the other hand, there is nothing in the BBC page about your original research reference. BBC just mentions the speculation as "...newspaper speculation that her father might have been Armenian - killed in the mass slaughter of Armenians in 1915 - has provoked uproar..." BBC also considers this as a provocative speculation. Regards. E104421 11:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course a newspaper is going to speculate—it's not an academic source. Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser however, is. Regards, Khoikhoi 01:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
You never read Hans-Lukas Kieser source, so you cannot speculate on its reliability. It's removed from German and French Wikipedias. You're just interested in speculative material on Turkic related topics, not the rational/logical ones. Regards. E104421 14:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the made up "Armenian roots" stuff. No relevant information or sources cited in the book. It looks like it is made up by the author without any evidence at all (hard to undersand why 'though) .. --88.106.105.186 14:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I reverted back, You can not just remove sited information because you don't understand it. Article isn't saying that shes Armenian, only that she may be and I belive thats a very relevant information to be included. VartanM 18:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I read the book 2 days ago. The main thing I did not understand is why the author says she "may" be an Armenian, because it does not cite any published sources, he just makes this up and I did not understand this issue. I can say Yerevan is actually a Turkish city, and as a "personal theory" it would true. Right? Please read my note carefully because I think you have a problem understanding what you read. This book cannot be a solid reference, it is no more than a personal theory. --88.106.114.175 22:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
By your logic every source is unreliable because someone, somewhere, sometime wrote something without a source. I'm sorry if you don't understand, but according to wikipedia rules there is nothing wrong with that section. It is attributed to Hans-Lukas Kieser and the reader will judge whether he/she wants to believe Hans-Lukas Kieser or not. You obviously don't, and thats OK with me. VartanM 23:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, as long as it's stated as "According to Hans-Lukas Kieser, ..." in the article, we'll let reader to judge. On the other hand, i'm wondering what's written exactly in the book. The book caused much controversy here in the talk page but nobody provided any direct quotation from the book. Of course, whether Hans-Lukas Kieser's book is an original research or not is another question. I shall greatly appreciate if somebody makes a direct quotation from the Hans-Lukas Kieser's book along with its sources. Thanks in advance. Regards. E104421 16:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes until then this is not a relevant reference --88.106.27.65 02:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Thats not good enough, If you indeed have the book, maybe you can scan the page where its says that she may be Armenian. Until then the info will stay and further removal of it will be reported. VartanM 02:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you do the scan and put it somewhere so we can all see.. It is easy to put an irrelevant reference from an irrelevant book full of imaginary words.. You are so full of it VartanM, if you know what I mean. That's a common problem, people are mostşy not objective. Well I don't expect "you" to be objective (based on your wiki name!) but at least you should have read the book and then fought for it.. You just mumble stuff, you cannot give even one background info on what you stand for and try to intimidate people. Wiki is full of people like you and I am really sick of it. Do you even really know what "objective" means? --88.238.193.38 (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Hans-Lukas Kieser is a published author and a WP:RS reliable source according to wikipedia rules. And the material is properly attributed to him and isn't stated as fact. So, please stop removing it, or else I'll be forced to report you to the administrators. VartanM (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

What a coincidence, immediately after the insertion of the speculative material, the page is blocked, just as in the similar cases on Turkic related pages. The same happened for Ataturk article [3] and already critisized [4]. In the future, i hope this will become more clear to all the Wikipedians, too. Wikipedia is not a place for speculative propaganda. This has to stop. I'm still assuming good faith. Regards. E104421 14:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zehra

I wrote Sabiha Gökçen's own life story according to her own narration and descriptions in the TV documentary which can be seen from the links I provided below the article.

When I defined the Çankaya Presidential Residence part, I also described "Zehra, Afet and Rukiye", other adopted daughters of Atatürk who lived there.

This is important, because the death of Zehra causes Sabiha Gökçen to return earlier from the aviation school in Moscow.

But, for the sake of defending her non-existant Armenianness, this part is deleted.

Someone who reads the article will now say "who is Zehra?"

I'm ANGRY because I spent my hours to watch that documentary and write all this stuff, but for the sake of Armenian complexes, it is destroyed. 151.44.145.205 07:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course a newspaper is going to speculate—it's not an academic source. Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser however, is. Regards (Khoikhoi)

I'm also a PhD, does this mean that anything I say/write is absolutely correct?

AND, given the fact that there were no proper census or demographics data before the establishment of the Turkish Republic, I really WONDER from WHICH DEMOGRAPHIC RESOURCES OR DATABASE has Dr. Hans Wurst gained the information that Gökçen's father was Armenian, despite the fact that Gökçen HERSELF describes her parents as Turks; that her father died when she was 7 and her mother died when she was 12? If they were really Armenian, she was old enough to remember. 151.44.145.205 07:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The article doesn't say she was Armenian for sure, or that Jugendorf is correct. It's just saying what other sources say. Keep in mind that it's not our job to show the "truth", but just state information based on reliable sources. Khoikhoi 20:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Similar "other sources" claim Atatürk was Jewish, including another "Dr." with a Germanic name (Dr. Joachim Prinz)

However, people who "naturally" protest against Atatürk being inaccurately branded as "of Jewish descent" are remaining silent when Gökçen is inaccurately branded (at least "question marked" in people's brains) as an "Armenian"; especially since Gökçen herself tells that she was the daughter of Muslim Turkish parents, that her father died when she was 7 and her mother died when she was 12, that her older brother joined the Kuvva-yı Milliye, that it was this same brother (who became a Turkish soldier) to whom Atatürk asked the 12-year-old Sabiha to "ask permission for moving to Ankara". These are all clearly expressed in the TRT documentary which I gave the YouTube links below the article, but yet the "Armenian theory" remains (which is hilarious because back in 1925 there were no proper census records in Turkey - I wonder from which "census archives" has Dr. Hans Wurst reached the conclusion that Sabiha Gökçen was of Armenian descent - apart from his "rear", of course.) 151.38.179.248 23:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exact page number on the book of Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser

Has someone actually read this book?

If so, please also add on which page (page number) Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser mentions Gökçen's Armenian origin.

Because from what I have heard, the book doesn't mention anything about this at all.

Without the specific page number clearly stated, a "book title" can't be enough evidence for a historic claim.

Nor is a "newspaper".

Until the specific book page is added, I suggest the controversial Armenian origin claim to be removed (it's not a "fact", only a "claim").

Especially when Sabiha Gökçen herself tells that her parents were Muslim Turks, that her father died when she was 7 and her mother died when she was 12, that her older brother joined the Kuvva-yı Milliye. 151.42.182.144 20:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I concur. E104421 10:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Here you go (Gökçen, die armenische „Vorzeigetürkin“). Khoikhoi 10:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • This is not from the Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser's book and it's not sourced. Regards. E104421 22:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Technical Issue with Page Address

Firefox (2.0.0.9) seems to have problems resolving the address of this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabiha_G%C3%B6k%C3%A7en - though the redirect from the unaccented version works correctly. Loading appears to continue indefinitely without any content appearing.

Presumably this issue affects other Wikipedia pages, but I haven't come across it before.

The problem doesn't seem to appear in Opera 9 or IE 7. Sergeirichard (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: And now it works again. Perhaps the problem was on my end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sergeirichard (talk • contribs) 18:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested Quotation

  • I shall greatly appreciate if somebody provides the requested quotations, otherwise i'll remove the Hans-Lukas Kieser related sentences. The request quote time is up. Regards. E104421 (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Extra Addition

If you really think that she is or may be Armenian, why don't you create a separate paragraph that would say:

"=Origins=

It is being speculated in Turkey that she is or may be Armenian (then cite etc.)"


Otherwise it is becoming very unencyclopedic.

Now the real question:

Is there ANY other female (non combat) pilot before her? If not, that makes the first female pilot period. --Eae1983 (talk) 16:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)