Talk:Sabbatai Zevi

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[edit] Sourceless Marker

While specific statements are not references, the bibliography and other links seem relatively complete. Perhaps the template could be more specific, or removed altogether? Calaf 03:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree on the "relatively complete." There are some good references, and a lot of non-referenced statements. Overall, it is OK, because it started from a good base at the Jewish Encylopedia, as stated in the "References" section. The marker does not bother me one way or the other.
warshy 17:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish encryption

Following Turkish encryption is found in the original Shabbatai Zvi article, which contains important information about the Donmeh cult.

Hi, my family is an Turkish-Tatar family. I think Sabbetai is a turkic name, orginally from tatar. Sabbetai may be from Karaim or khazarian origin?????

Our article contains no such text. Even if it did, such text would have to be deleted. This is the English language Wikipedia encyclopedia, thus our contributions are always in the English language. If there is some information in a Turkish-language article that you would like to add, you must first translate it into English. I personally would love to see some more information on the Donmeh, and any information you can provide (in English) would be most welcome! RK

[edit] Book

According to the book "The Messiah of Turkey" by Aubrey Ross, there were still many followers of Zevi living in Turkey in 2002 and they included senior politicians. See the review in Ha'Aretz: [1] -- bdm

[edit] Adjectives

This article seems to use various adjectives which allows no room for anything but an extremely negative point of view. Not that he deserves any respect, but it does seem that this article takes every chance it has to deride Zevi, which may decrease its scholarly value. Presenting the information in a less opinionated language would surely increase its efficacy.

The article appears biased: the implication throughout is that Zevi was a charlatan, with no discussion to what extent he may actually have believed his own claims. Deipnosophista 21:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category

IZAK, your latest category change strikes me as wrong. Yes Zevi lived in the Ottoman Empire, but no not in Palestine or any part of the Empire that later became Palestine, as far as I can see from skimming his biography. I'm not removing this category change because I'm not %100 sure, but I will remove it after doing a thorough check - or maybe you should yourself. --Woggly 08:25, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You were right, I was wrong. Apologies. --Woggly 08:32, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] English Millenarianism

Sabbatai's father, who as the agent of an English house was in constant touch with English people, must have frequently heard of these expectations and, himself strongly inclined to believe them, must naturally have communicated them to his son, whom he almost deified because of his piety and cabalistic wisdom.

This comes across as conjecture compounded with speculation. Is there any evidence that Sabbatai learned about Millenarianism from his father? Josh Cherry 17:29, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English Millenarianism

To Josh Cherry:

Your observation is a very good beginning, IMVHO.

I believe there is at this point no concrete or reliable historical evidence that Mordecai Zevi did ever teach his son anything about English Millenarianism.

As you point out, in the manner it is articulated, this sentence is currently no more than mere "conjecture compounded with speculation."

I also think it is impossible to ascertain from this historical distance if SZ as an individual did ever learn anything specific about English Millenarianism, and from whom. But, if the previous paragraph is correct in its assertions, then the conclusion is warranted, in my view, that there was some sort of direct influence from English Millenarianism on the phenomenon of Jewish Messianism in the 17th century, of which SZ is perhaps the major expression.

As far as I know, such mutual influences have not been sufficiently studied or written about to this date. SZ's case would be but one instance of these possible influences. A very important and telling instance, to be sure. However, the main historical work on SZ to this date, denies quite emphatically that such influences had any importance. I am referring primarily to Gershom Scholem's extensive, massive English tome on SZ. I believe, from my readings and research so far, that Scholem is mistaken on this crucial point, as well as on many others regarding the significance of the phenomenon of Jewish Messianism in the 17th century.

Is there any interest, on your part, or on any other person's part, in continuing this discussion here? --Warshy 15:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Corrected an image

I uploaded another copy of the image used for Shabbatai Tzvi as a prisoner in Abydos. The one that was there was a duplicate of Former followers of Shabbatai do penance for their support of him.--◀Pucktalk▶ 06:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggest another redirect

How might one create a new re-direct? I read an essay and found many references to "Sabbatai Sevi", but Wikipedia came up empty on this topic. There is already a re-direct from "Sabbatai Sebi", so is it possible to add one more?

Done. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
All you have to do is start a new article with the name you want, then type "#REDIRECT [[name of article redirecting to]]" --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Play

Martin Sherman's play "Messiah" addresses this phenomenon at length from the POV of a Polish Jewish woman pilgrim. (Can't find a substantive link but thought someone might want to add the info the the main page

[edit] Istanbul?

Wasn't this great city, notwithstanding its being ruled by the Ottomans since 1453, known as Constantinople until 1930?

This is the previous editing I had done on the main article page regarding this issue. This edit is on the section called "In Salonica", line 6:
Istanbul (which was still known in the Christian West at that time as Constantinople),
I believe the note above is more precise historically, since for non-Christian residents of the Ottoman Empire at the time of Shabtai Tzvi (residents like himself, who spoke Arabic as their main language of communication), the capital city of the empire must certainly have been known as Istanbul, not Constantinople. In light of the above, I believe the previous title should stand, with the addition of the parenthesis note as written above. warshy 13:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
As this is the English Wikipedia I have corrected to Constantinople, which was the term used in English at the time. Deipnosophista 21:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edit

"long awaited" by nature can not be npov. Rabbis have many different views of the messiah. Rabbi Hillel for example held there will be no future messiah for Israel. Similar views are shared by Yeshayahu Leibowitz.

Who said anything "by nature"? what the heck is "npov"? "Long awaited" here refers to the context of overall messianism, and more specifically Converso messianism in the period, and to the fact that this was indeed the first massive and encompassing messianic movement in Judaism since the beginning of Christianity. I will revert it, unless you respond to these arguments.
warshy 11:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"rabbi" refer to the Joseph Solovietchik argument for this. Maybe call him a cleric. 203.214.137.16 22:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I said that Scholem brings evidende to the fact that he was an ordained rabbi before he started his kabbalistic speculations and that I have the quote, just have to put it in footnote form. If you go back to the history of the page you will see the Scholem citation. Who cares about Soloveitchik on this matter? Since when is he a historian? I will revert likewise, unless I see any compelling argument otherwise.
warshy 11:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Circumcision - Jewish ritual only?

Circumcision is a very common practise in Islam among the boys and men, and a circumcisor perform this on the males at either during infancy, childhood or adulthood. So, what makes this a Jewish ritual and different to Muslims?

Well, good question, why not? For one, because it is supposedly described in the book of Genesis (17; 15-27), the very first one of the Hebrew Bible, and Jews supposedly have been performing that same ritual, at the same 'age' in which it is performed by Abraham on Isaac, since that "time," uninterruptedly. Why do Muslims perform the ritual, and where in their scripture is it performed? My impression is that from the age in which it is performed by Muslims, it may come from the same source, as it was performed by Abraham on Ishmael at the age of thirteen. So it may be a Muslim ritual too, for different reason and at a different age, in addition to being undoubtedly a Jewish one.
warshy 20:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Which skirts the point. The article says that the Donmeh practise Jewish rituals such as circumcision. Since circumcision is also a Moslem ritual, and it's not unknown for Moslems to circumcise their sons in early infancy, how is this a Jewish practise, and therefore evidence of a continued Jewish tradition? It's a good question, and if we don't get an answer within a few weeks it would probably be best to take that out of the article. -- Zsero 23:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if you are the original person asking the question above, but I think it is safe to assume you are. Before taking out anything we would have to ask how the Donmeh view their practice, as coming from Muslim law or as coming from the Hebrew Bible commandments. I did not skirt the question at all, since you did not specify what sentence had promtpted your question to begin with. But my answer still stands anyhow, because I gave you the sources of the practice among Jews, whereas you are only speaking in generalities. You did not give the sources and/or reasons for the Muslim practice, neither the common age at which it is practiced. The only thing you said is that it is "not unknown." I am asking for KNOWN facts before you dismiss my answer as squirting the point. How common is the circucisiion practice among Muslims in early childhood? Furthermore, Jews perform it, if health conditions permit, on the eigth day of life. The precise eigth day, as prescribed in scripture, is very different from a generic "early childhood." How common is it for Muslims to peform the practice on the eigth day of life of the boy? And again, before dismissing or deleting anything, we would have to know if the Donmeh also perform the practice on the eigth day of life, which would definitely identify it as Hebrew/Jewish, regardless even of their views. Regards,
warshy 13:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Your assumption is not at all safe. Why didn't you check the history, and save yourself the risk of assuming? -- Zsero 15:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Check what history? I believe I have read much more historical material regarding Shabtai Tzvi and the Donmeh than you can dream even exist. But that is immaterial here. I have provided sources and logical evidence for what I am asserting so far, and you have not provided one iota of verifiable facts up to this point. But furthermore, the one arguing for change is you, not me, and therefore the onus of any proof regarding this matter is on YOU, not on me. Unless you can substantiate your position with sources and citations, as I have done, there does not seem to remain anything else for us discuss here.
warshy 19:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Ahem. Check the history of this page, before making assumptions about who wrote what. -- Zsero 19:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] about his conversion to islam

from God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Hitchens, Christopher:

Summoned to the vizier's palace, and allowed to make his way from prison with a procession of hymn-singing supporters, the Messiah was very bluntly asked if he would agree to a trial by ordeal. The archers of the court would use him as a target, and if heaven deflected the arrows he would be adjudged genuine. Should he refuse, he would be impaled. If he wished to decline the choice all together, he could affirm himself to be a true muslim and be allowed to live.

is this really how it happened? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.86.74.137 (talk) 11:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)