Talk:Sabbat (neopaganism)

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[edit] Merge with Sabbat (neopaganism)

From Talk:Wheel of the Year

I'm now working on merging the two articles. I know there's been alot of discussion about it. The opposition seems to be over the term "Sabbat" because it is not used in all forms of Neopaganism. Therefore, I'll merge it to "Wheel of the Year", and make "Sabbat" the redirect. The community can then move the page to wherever it chooses. Regardless of the naming, these articles must be merged! Leaving them separate is like having separate pages for "The Week" and "Days of the week". I'll also try to organize the festival information into a small table, and make a footer template for the differnet festival pages. --gwc 03:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It has been done. And so I've made this page a redirect. --gwc 07:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates of the Solstices and Equinoxes

[|The US Naval Obseravtory publishes "the" national standard data for the dates and times of the solstices and equinoxes. The times given there are in UT (Universal Time -similar to GMT) so they read 5 hours ahead of what clocks are reading in the US's Eastern Standard Time or 4 hours during Eastern Daylight Saving Time. Neopagan publications have been mis-stating the dates of the solstices and equinoxes for generations now, probably just by copying from each other and being befuddled by the seemingly ambiguous nature of the dates from year to year they find when referencing the astronomical data. The following values represent the actual/correct dates based on USA time (EST/EDT).

MARCH EQUINOX: usually March 20th; occasionally the 21st; NEVER the 24th or 25th...

JUNE SOLSTICE: usually June 21st; occasionally the 20th...

SEPTEMBER EQUINOX: usually Sept. 23rd; occasionally the 22nd; NEVER (never) the 20th, 21st 24th, 25th...

DECEMBER SOLSTICE: usually dec 21st; occasionally the 22nd

Earrach

Depends on where you are in the world. If you're in New Zealand like me, the June Solstice might fall on the 22nd. The only befuddling I've seen so far has been assuming that everyone's in a US Eastern Standard time zone (quite a common mistake, making people like me have to be quite careful).
Lets see, looking at the (UT) times given for solstices and equinoxes from 1992-2020, and figuring out the possible dates in all possible time zones, we have:
  1. March equinox 19-21 March
  2. June solstice 20-22 June
  3. September equinox 22-24 Sept
  4. December solstice 20-22 Dec
I haven't looked at a wider range of years, and it looks like the Sept equinox might occasionally slip back into 21 Sept, but I haven't confirmed this.
There are also many folk traditions in England and Europe that (quite separately from the neopagan movement) have fixed on slightly wrong dates for celebrations. If someone's observing a "traditional" date that doesn't coincide with the actual solstice or equinox this is a likely explanation. Fuzzypeg☻ 23:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'm wrong, the range of dates is even wider. The link you added to the article regarding seasonal error shows that even if you think in just Universal Time (pretty much equivalent to GMT) the December solstice falls anywhere between 20th and 23rd Dec. I'll go looking for the correct dates for the other solstice and equinoxes. Fuzzypeg☻ 00:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've found the limits. The earliest times for the solstices and equinoxes (close to our current century) will be in the year 2096, and the latest times were in the year 1903. The calculator I used was precise to within 20 minutes. The possible date ranges, then, in Universal Time alone, are:
  1. 19 Mar 13:52UT — 21 Mar 19:12UT
  2. 20 Jun 06:19UT — 22 Jun 15:07UT
  3. 21 Sep 22:47UT — 24 Sep 05:46UT
  4. 20 Dec 20:47UT — 23 Dec 0:18UT
which makes the possible dates, allowing for all time zones:
  1. March equinox 19-22 March
  2. June solstice 19-23 June
  3. September equinox 21-24 Sept
  4. December solstice 20-23 Dec
Fuzzypeg☻ 00:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Added - complete lexical lineage, links to Sabbath (christian), Shabbat (judaism), updated text 'derived from "sabbath"' to 'see also "sabbath"'.

Not everyone accepts the implied religious lineage. For many, sabbat is a major holiday observance, as opposed to a weekly religious obligation.

Added — history of the use of the term. —NakedCelt 06:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neopaganism?

Might it not be wiser to move this page to Sabbat (Wicca)? As far as I'm aware, only Wiccans refer to the eight festivals as "sabbats". If there are no objections I shall do so. Dewrad 18:08, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

It would seem more sensible to merge it (apart from the last section) with Wheel of the Year... --Ant 11:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cross-quarter points

This section seems more generally applicable, and should be an article in its own right... or maybe part of Season, merged with the Reckoning section. --Ant 11:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

This article still has the erroneous section Cross-quarter points on the Gregorian and astrological calendars which was sustantially edited for accuracy Wheel of the Year (see Talk:Wheel of the Year).

In general this article seems less well structured than Wheel of the Year. Its alsocluttered with inaccuracies and over-generalisations.

I would however support a rename of Wheel of the Year to Wheel of the Year (Neopagan). --Nantonos 13:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Not disagreeing with you, Nantonos, but if you don't have time to fix the inaccuracies and over-generalizations, it would be helpful if you could list some of them so they could be addressed.
Septegram 13:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair point. But what I mainly meant was, since there seems to have been more fixing up of erroneous stuff on Wheel of the Year - some by myself, some by others - it would be sad to see that material replaced by (apparent dupes of the same stuff) in Sabbat if the former merges into the latter. The main thing to note is that the idea that the four Celtic fire festivals are secondary (cross) quarters derived from the solstices and equinoxes is a fairly recent Neopagan invention; they were originally entirely separate (and originally lunar). --Nantonos 01:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
If I end up doing the merge I'll keep your comments in mind. I can see there's better-written material in Wheel of the Year, and my intention is that most of that will replace most of what's here. No-one's yet objected to a merge, so I may do it in a week or two if no-one pipes up... Fuzzypeg☻ 02:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I beleive that this article itself is different than the wheel of the year article in the sense that the wheel of the year adresses the ensemble of the eight festivals and how they interact with each other. While this article adresses each festival as an individual happening and therefore should be kept seperate. Merging the two into one article could become a messy and complicated affair. Afterall this web site is open to anyone on the net and many may not be familiar with the festivals at all and therefore keeping the articles seperate could make the info. more precise and on topic for those who are solely looking up data about the sabbats who do not wish to get involved with the whole subject of the wheel. Pentagram101 16:25 11 August 2006

We don't really want an article that "adresses each festival as an individual happening" though; these festivals each have their own article. Surely if the Wheel of the Year article has a prominently-placed list of the Sabbats/festivals, with links you can follow to read about each in detail, that would serve the purpose? Our goal is to avoid unnecessary repetition! Fuzzypeg☻ 13:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I notice that Samhain and Lughnasadh have pronunciation notes, but the others are lacking. I'd update that with appropriate notes if I could, but I don't know how to create the pronunciation annotation. Imbolc, Beltaine and Mabon are ones which particularly need attention, as Imbolc is (I believe) correctly pronounced "imm-olc" or "imm-olg," I'm told the Gaelic pronunciation for Beltaine is something like "bee-yaw-nee," and I've heard "Mabon" mispronounced "May-bon." Anyone?

Samhain should probably include the pronunciation "so-ven," too; it's not as common, but it is used.

Septegram 20:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree pronunciation in IPA should be added. Needs a native Irish speaker who also knows IPA to do it. --Nantonos 08:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge

Wheel of the Year and Sabbat (neopaganism) seem to cover exactly the same ground, indicating that they should be only one article. I suggest that Sabbat (neopaganism) be the main article and Wheel of the Year be a redirect, since "sabbat" is a more distinctive term, and the first term I would think of searching under. Wheel of the Year can be a redirect. Also, "Wheel of the Year" is not exclusively a Wiccan or a neopagan term.

Both articles need substantial rewrite, and possibly need to shed some excess information such as in Wheel of the Year where the Gregorian months are enumerated (seems totally unnecessary to me!). This should be done either before or after the merge process, so the diffs don't get too confusing (i.e. delete or rewrite before merging or after, but don't just drop information during the merge). Fuzzypeg☻ 06:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

while i can't believe that i'd bother considering how abusive and vile wikipedia is, i'd just like to point out that amongst other things, pagan groups other than neopagans use the wheel of the year...sorta like one of those duh moments...no, don't merge those things, only people totally ignorant would even ever consider doing that.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.49.65 (talk • contribs)

I am aware that other groups use that term, however Wheel of the Year as it currently stands represents purely a neopagan perspective. A "Wheel of the Year" article from a broader perspective is, as it were, an article still waiting to be written. What I'm interested in at the moment is cleaning up and rationalising existing material.
Now, I don't really appreciate your bolshy remarks or your suggestion that I'm "totally ignorant". Perhaps take a look at my recent contributions to Wikipedia before you make such judgements. Please don't turn up making derisory and abusive statements right off the mark, as this is exactly the kind of behaviour that promotes the flame wars you profess to dislike. Please read the Wikipedia policy "Assume good faith". Thanks, Fuzzypeg☻ 07:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Wheel of the Year should neither be merged into nor become a redirect for Sabbats. This is because the same eightfold wheelis used in neodruidry,and has the same origin (collaboration between Gerald Gardner and Ross Nichols). However,in neodruidic use the festivals are not termed sabbats. On the other hand, renaming Wheel of the Year to Wheel of the Year (neopagan) would probably be a good idea. --Nantonos 08:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I would still like to limit the amount of repeated information; what do you think of merging Sabbat (neopaganism) into Wheel of the Year (neopagan) and making Sabbat (neopaganism) a redirect to that? Fuzzypeg☻ 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Having just found Sabbath (witchcraft) I now think it is sensible to move most of this material into Wheel of the Year, make Sabbat (neopaganism) a redirect to Sabbath (witchcraft), and include a very brief section at the bottom of Sabbath (witchcraft) explaining neopagan usage and pointing the reader to Wheel of the Year. The concept of "Sabbath" in relation to witchcraft deserves to be seen in a wider historical view, rather than just focussing on Wiccan and neopagan conceptions. Fuzzypeg☻ 05:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't merge!

Sabbats, are not just reffered so as such by Wiccans. Other Neopagan faiths use this terms also.

Also, merging with "Wheel of the year" would not work, as they refer to two different things.

The Wheel of the year, is basically the story of the Goddess and the God, and how the cycle of life happens year after year.

The Sabbats however refers to each individual sabbat, and how the sabbat fits in with the Wheel of the Year. Each Sabbat has a different meaning, and different celevrations are held on each on.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Norfolkdumpling (talk • contribs)

Yes, of course Sabbats have greater usage than just within Wicca. The term derives mainly from Wicca though, and most of the symbolism has been adapted from Wiccan sources, so Wicca would probably feature strongly in an article about Sabbats, but it would not exclusively be from a Wiccan perspective.
I see your point that the wheel of the year is the full cycle, whereas a Sabbat is one spoke — however at the moment both articles cover pretty much the same ground. It's really hard to clearly separate these two ideas so that the two articles don't just repeat each other. I believe it would be easier to have a single article that describes the festivals briefly (remember that they are each more fully described in Imbolc, Samhain, etc.) and also gives an overall picture of how they fit together on a mythological level.
I'd also like to add a word of caution right now about the "story of the Goddess and the God": there are countless variations of this story, and none of them seem to date back very far. There are various ancient myths that we can look to for comparison, but we can't make these comparisons ourselves, according to Wikipedia's no original research policy — we need to find reliable sources who make these comparisons for us. I think it's going to be a difficult section to write, and it's probably going to end up as a survey of the two or three most well-known versions. Fuzzypeg☻ 21:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This doesn't sound right

The article says '"Ostara", "Eostar", or "Eostara" is a lunar Esbat, celebrated at the full moon closest to the vernal equinox. Eostre was the name given to the Teutonic lunar Goddess. See Mike Nichols.)'

For one thing, Ostara isn't an Esbat (also all Esbats are celebrations of the full moon, so 'lunar' is redundant here). Also, from what I gather Eostre wasn't a lunar goddess, she was a goddess of the dawn, her name relates to the word East which is the direction in which the sun rises.

This is based on the article by Mike Nichols referenced here, which also supports the strange theory that Eostre is the root of the word 'oestrogen' (rendered estrogen in American English).--Jcvamp 03:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to go off on a wild tangent, but Esbats are also new moons.
Septegram 14:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Eostre was a goddess of the dawn and the spring (related to the Greek Eos). It is a Sabbat, not an Esbat. Esbats are positioned purely according to the phase of the moon, while Sabbats are positioned according to either the sun alone (a calendar date or a solstice or equinox) or the sun and the moon (e.g. full moon nearest to equinox). That would be very similar to how Easter is positioned (the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox); the word Easter of course derives from Eostar:
According to Bede (c. 672 - 735), writing in De Tempore Ratione ("On the Reckoning of Time"), Ch. xv, "The English months", the word is derived from Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to whom the month answering to our April, and called Eostremonat, was dedicated;
"Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance."
What is secure in Bede's passage is that the lunar month around the month of April in the Julian calendar was called the Eostre-monath. And as the Christian tradition of Easter, which has also fallen in April, arrived in some Germanic-speaking regions, the people named the then-unnamed Christian day after the festival, that is, in English as Easter, and in German as Ostern. It is alleged that remnants of Eostre's characteristics can also be found in the Easter Bunny celebrations, based on Jacob Grimm's research into connections between the 'Ostern Hare' and the Germanic Ostara, which he believed to be another name for the same goddess. (quoted from here)
Taking up Septegram's wild tangent, how traditional is a "new moon" esbat? ("...and better it be when the moon is full") Fuzzypeg☻ 02:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Good question, Fuzzypeg. I know we have esbats on the new moons, but I don't know how traditional or widespread the practice is. However, the Charge does say "better it be..." not "only it be...", so I don't think it's heretical or anything. In fact it says "Whenever ye have need of any thing," now that I think about it, so if the "any thing" we need happens to be "Circle time," we'd be entirely justified.
Ha! I am a mighty rationalizer!
Septegram 19:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I know it's fairly common amongst Wiccans and other witches to avoid working on a dark moon; that's not to say it's wrong (the conjunction of Sun and Moon could be seen as very propitious, depending on your viewpoint), I just wondered how common these "dark moon" esbats were, and where they came from. Probably an impossible question, I know... Fuzzypeg☻ 13:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure how common they are, or their origin. I guess we're kind of weird Wiccans in Blue Star... {grin}
I didn't think you were implying we were "wrong" to Circle on the New Moon, either.
Septegram 21:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that people celebrate Esbats on new moons too, I didn't check what I was writing. The point on that section was that lunar is redundant. Anyway, the overall point was that she, according to every other source I've read, was a goddess of the dawn, not a lunar goddess. Is there a consensus that this should be changed?--Jcvamp 21:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm in agreement. I'll change it now, and if you wish to make further improvements, feel free. Fuzzypeg☻ 06:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Just a quick note, though. You've left in the reference to the Mike Nichols page that says Eostre was a lunar goddess. Can this be replaced with a source that, correctly, identifies her as a goddess of the dawn?--Jcvamp 02:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If it hasn't already been answered, the reason Ostara (etc, etc) was used is because this particular Sabbat celebrates the returning strength of the Sun (aka the God), at least in Wicca. I don't have any of my books with me, but it is either when the Goddess returns to her 'maiden' aspect, or she is going to in the next Sabbat. :) Just to clarify. Disinclination 04:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I knew that much. The issue was about her being called a lunar goddess. Thanks anyway.--Jcvamp 06:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

Would you like me to add the histories of these holidays based on my college paganism textbooks? I added a little info at Wheel of the Year but this article seems to lack history at all. I'll also be tackling copyediting. Kuronue 15:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't add the histories yet, I could add a nother section for that. I added section headings. The main problem that I found was the tendancy to throw more information that is needed into the article-- for instnance, if someone wanted to learn about the astrological year, they'd be reading Astrology or Zodiac, not Sabbat. I also deleted things that seemed suspicious or fluffy; if you add them back in, please cite or add an unreferenced tag. Also, where do we get off saying what "most" pagans do? I left such statements in, but, I feel uneasy about our assumptions that all of pagandom follows these exact procedures. Kuronue 15:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] links

bbc link has moved, its now http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/year.shtml --Yakumo 16:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've updated it. Fuzzypeg☻ 23:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] heathen?

"Druid and heathen festivals have different names" -- heathen redirects to paganism. Sabbat is neopagan... Druidry is a religion but there is no religion (that I know of) named Heathen. Who put that sentence there, do you want to justify leaving heathen there or shall I change it to "Druid and other pagan festivals"? Kuronue 15:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It's my understanding that Asatrua often refer to themselves as "Heathens." Thus, a "Heathen" festival would be one run by and for Asatruar.
Septegram 15:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
If that's true, shouldn't the link to heathen instead be a link to asatru? Makes more sense. Kuronue 22:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't let me stand in your way. If you think it makes more sense that way, then Be Bold.
Septegram 02:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I did, immediatly after posting that ~_^ Kuronue 15:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introductory text

"It is interesting to note that pagans usually also observe secular holidays in their culture, and sometimes festivals from majority religions - for example, participating in Christmas gatherings if the rest of their family does so; however, they do not usually commemorate these holidays by rituals in their or another religion." -- Is this paragraph really necessary in an article on the sabbats? Observance of secular holidays isn't unique to pagans, and most people with multi-religious families will take part in their various celebrations. - 23:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't see any particular value in keeping that text in the article. Fuzzypeg☻ 22:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't either. I probably wouldn't bother removing it myself, but see no reason not to remove it if you think it wastes space.
Septegram 17:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Murray

I don't ever recall Murry creating the sabbats/esbats. All she did was document and string things into something totally inacurate (Old Religion). So I'm putting up a citation needed. If nothing comes up in a month, I'm taking it down. That should be sufficient time. Disinclination 20:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that's supposed to mean the modern versions. The actual holidays all were celebrated in one culture or another, but never in a coherant group like they are now. Kuronue 16:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
She didn't create the modern versions either. If someone has to be credited, it would be Gardner. Murray's information was proven inaccurate a long time ago. It's deleted now. Disinclination 20:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MERGING THE WHEEL OF THE YEAR WITH 'SABBATS'

In whatever authority I would have as a 5th degree Fam/Trad and a Norse-Magick Seithmothr & Runester/ or just as a wikiperson, I would like to say this about the proposed merge:

  - It would be good as the Sabbats follow the Wheel of the year,
    and the Wheel of the Year is kept sacred through the Sabbats.
  - It would be bad as they are two different ideas & even schemata at work.
    There should not be the dogma of Inherent Imposition in the Craft.

    SO- I think that there should be a) a edited version as an appendix,
        and/or simply note the facts cleary @ the top and have clear links and
        a full understanding of the connections within the body of the "Sabbat" 
        article text.

My 2 cents~ Jigiggidykadabra!

~Drew Beckett.->[[1]]

Hi Drew. I'm sorry, I don't understand everything you've written: what do you mean when you say the Wheel and the Sabbats are two different schemata? And what is "the dogma of Inherent Imposition"?
The "edited version as an appendix": is that an edited version of the Sabbats article as an appendix to the Wheel of the Year article? And I can't actually figure out from your comments, are you saying you're in favour or not in favour of merging the two articles? Sorry if I'm being dense.
Oh, you can sign your comments easily by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your message. These get turned into name/time/date, like this: Fuzzypeg☻ 20:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)