Talk:SA8 (detergent)

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[edit] distributors

This is an incorrect term. The term "distributors" was replaced by Amway and Quixtar many years ago because Independent Business Owners - the correct and official term - today do little in the way of "distributing". I would suggest you might like to refrain from making edits to articles in fields you apparently have little knowledge about. --Insider201283 22:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

A U.S. court of law has determined that the IBOs are distributors. The use of jargon doesn't help readers understand the topic of the article. -Will Beback · † · 23:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Amway products are sold by distributors or Independent Business Owners (“IBOs”), the terms are interchangeable.[1] -Will Beback · † · 23:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

That is false. The case, which you cited elsewhere, related to Amway distributors nearly 10 years ago, at that time the terms were interchangeable. The term is no longer officially used with regard to Amway IBOs today and has never been used for Quixtar IBOs as it is considered misleading. It appears you wish to have misleading rather than accurate wording. --Insider201283 00:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't delete the comments of others. No, it is not false. It is exactly what the judge wrote. Why is it misleading? -Will Beback · † · 00:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Again you violate WP:Assume Good Faith. A simple look at the time stamps will see that my edit overlapped the other one - I did not delete it. I explained what is false about it. The case is talking about Amway distributors 10 years ago - when they did indeed "distribute" and it was both an accurate description and the official description. It has never applied either to Quixtar IBOs and has neither been an accurate or official description for Amway IBOs. Your logic would dictate that if I could find a court case from the past when Model T was the only car and the court said "car and Model T" are interchangeable, then we should be changing references to "car" in wikipedia to Model T. The terms may have been interchangeable then, they are not now. Even if they were interchangeable, the preference should obviously be for the official term. --Insider201283 00:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I should have said "has not be an accurate or official description for Amway IBOs for many years." It used to be. --Insider201283 02:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I see that I wrote something 23:13 and then at 00:35 (over an hour later) you erased it, possibly accidentally. I never assumed bad faith. We've all done that by mistake, please avoid repeating it.

How are IBOs different today from what they were in September 2005, 15 months ago? Have they stopped distributing SA8? Anyway, this article is about detergent. It isn't the job of this article to describe in detail the workings of Alticor's distribution channel. -Will Beback · † · 07:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, the court case is discussing issues from almost 10 years ago, not September 2005. In that context the terms are interchangeable. They are not interchangeable today and "distributor" is a misleading term. IBO is the official term. --Insider201283 09:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The court didn't use the past tense in 2005, it used the present tense. I've added the "official" term so that everyone will be happy. Still, there's no indication of how the "IBOs" are any less distributors in 2005 than they were previously. -Will Beback · † · 09:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Because all shipping and handling and similar logistics is done by the corporations. IBOs rarely "touch" the products they are marketing - they do very little in the way of "distributing" anymore except for perhaps a small number of non-internet based clients. The court did not use past tense because it was referring in the present to past events. In that context the terms are interchangeable. Your editing is still incorrect. There is and never has been such a thing as a Quixtar distributor and the term is no longer applied to Amway distributors either. If you believe the terms are interchangeable, then why do you insist on using "distributors"?--Insider201283 10:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

It appears that there is an error in the article. You say above that only a small number of IBOs actually handle the product and that the rest are sent over the internet. However the article says that:

• Consumer Reports also incorrectly claimed SA8 was only available for purchase online, when it is also available for purchase directly from millions of independent Amway and Quixtar representatives.

Do those "millions" that distribute the product without the internet represent only a small portion of all IBOs? Just how many millions of IBOs are there?

There are approximately 1 million IBOs in the United States, of which no more than around 20% are actually actively operating a business at any given time. While the products are available from all of those IBOs, hence the correction to CR, in practice very few customers are supplied their products directly by IBOs, further explanation below. --Insider201283 11:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Separately, I'm wondering how independent businesses sell products without being involved in their distribution. If the IBOs don't handle distribution then who does? This isn't covered in our articles, but maybe it should be. Are there any sources for this information? IBO manuals? -Will Beback · † · 10:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard of drop shipping? Affiliate programs? The great majority of distribution of Amway and Quixtar products to an IBOs wholesale and retail customers are handled by Access Business Group, a division of alticor. Historically the only people who could source products directly from what was then Amway were people who purchased in sufficient volumes - people known by the then very relevant description "direct distributors". Those people had "direct" access to the products and then "distributed" them to retail and wholesale customers (ie other "distributors"). The products were distributed to consumers through this network of distributors. For well over a decade now this has generally not occurred. All IBOs deal directly with Amway and Quixtar for their products, and Access Business Group (or Amway itself in some markets) distribute those products to directly to IBOs and their wholesale and retail customers. I physically touch and see - "distribute" - way way less than 0.0001% of the product I sell every month. Because of these changes in the business model the term "distributor" came to be seen as very misleading - it implied the old "door-to-door sales"/"party-plan" type of model, and was replaced by the term "Independent Business Owners". It was never used in reference to Quixtar IBOs. I am in independent business owner but I do virtually distribution. My major role is marketing. --Insider201283 11:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation. It's hard to find this kind of information. I'd say that maybe the best thing would be to omit all mention of the IBO/distributors from this article, and to improve the description of the distribution scheme in the Amway/Quixtar/Alticor articles. The CR report does not seem to have been entirely wrong about the matter and we're just drawing attention to it by mentioning it here. -Will Beback · † · 18:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was planning on correcting the "hard to find" problem with the aid of wikipedia, but that's become just a little more difficult for more now hasn't it? ;-) In any case the CR article was wrong. It said SA8 was only available on the internet. Any registered IBO in the US has the right to sell you the product, you do not have purchase on the internet. You can find Quixtar IBOs listed in the phone book, call them up and ask for it. They'll either drop it around themselves (ala the old "distributor" model - it's still possible, just minor as explained) or arrange for Quixtar to ship directly to you via ABG - no internet required. It's a misunderstanding of the business model, albeit a minor one. --Insider201283 20:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's try to find whatever info we can on the Quixtar/Amway ditribution model and put that material in those articles. Since we identify that this is a Quixtar/Amway product it should be obvious to any reader that it can be obtained through those channels. -Will Beback · † · 21:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)