Talk:Sḵwxwú7mesh/Archive 1

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Archive 1
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Contents

thoughts re Pauline Johnson

been thinking about this after re-inserting it today, and have given second thought and will move to a separate article on the Legends of Vancouver book, giving a summary of its stories - as notable and iconic in the local cultural landscape (i.e. the white-cum-popularized First Nations cultural landscape), as well as certain other materials and non-native lore connected to the Squamish, OR thought to derive from them. I haven't written a Maj. Matthews bio article yet, but if there is one (doubt it) his material on Squamish legend, language and tradition is also worthy of note historically, although like Johnson likely held in low esteem by contemporary Skwxwu7mesh-ulh elders, politicians and scholars. Fine. On this page all there need be is a reference to the other article (be it a general article on local legends, or one on Johnson's booklet in particular, I haven't decided yet) and an appropriate comment as to their validity/status re Skwxwu7mesh-ulh studies. Matthews' books also feature plates of the archivist dressed in the Kahtsahlano chiefly regalia, as the chief himself could not be photographed wearing it; it happens to be him behind the lens of Matthews' camera...and his native placenames of Vancouver list may or may not be accurate, I wouldn't know. But I do submit that if Skwxwu7mesh-ulh want people to learn about the Skwxwu7mesh Uxmuimixw, instead of criticizing the existence of well-meaning if inaccurate renderings of their cultures, they should write better ones themselves, i.e. better in the sense of reaching the general public. And hopefully someone with as lyrical a sense of poetry and mystery told in such simple language as in Legends of Vancouver; her one story in there relating to a journey into my Lillooet Country is very evocative; an exotic eye on a familiar landscape, so much more on-point than Emily Carr's depressed musings on her visit. Whatever. But Johnson's book and her relationship to Joe Matthias are worthy of comment, as far as non-Skwxwu7mesh-ulh interests go (you can't decide what it is other people are interested in, after all, even if you do want to control what they can find and what they think of it); likewise Maj. Matthews and others writing from a context and era whose views/worldview may not be to your contemporary liking; the world is what it was, as well as what it is, after all...Skookum1 07:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with mentioning Pauline Johnson. Although her work was romanticized with regard to the history, she is still known for her work with the Skwxwu7mesh. And for Major Mathew's work too. Conversations with Khastalano is a great source for documented writing on the history. I'm trying to think of some more written information but most of the sources I have are documents done by my nation (Squamish Nation) for the people.
That would be great if any of that information, including Squamish Nation bio materials, could be added here (they can be cited even if they're not available publicly/online). Since you're here, an item on the Deadman's Island article could use elucidation - see the discussion on Bobanny's talk page as to whether Johnson's cite of the Squamish people's name of the island referred to the Squamish language or to Chinook Jargon.Skookum1 16:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I really don't know what to do with the Pauline Johnson stuff here. I'm not sure if the whole Napoleon story is too long, or, what to do, but I think it needs to be fixed up. Any suggestions? Mine is to just make some notes of it. She had worked with Skwxwu7mesh a lot, and wrote a lot from her conversations with Joe Capilano. Idea's? OldManRivers 03:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
After reading through it, I think this part of the article could be re-written. There are numerous writers who were influenced or writen fiction and non-fiction about the Sḵwxwú7mesh. This part about Pauline Johnson is way to long and has lots of unneccesary information. Although it pertains to the Sḵwxwú7mesh, it's not completly accurate. More wide ranging information about Sḵwxwú7mesh history, culture and stories, not only by Pauline Johnson who gained success from mainstream. Remove Pauline Johnson and Sḵwxwú7mesh Legends as a title. Make a new one about ancient history. This place could include some of the stories mentioned in her book "Legends of Vancouver", but along with others. I also imagine new pages would be created (like with Kwakwaka'wakw Mythology, but I really really hate using that term. The Sḵwxwú7mesh are not all Christian, assimilated, businessmen. There are still animists and pagans who believe in this faith, and these histories. The "mythology" denotes a fake, non-real, and non-true, history. Who believes Zues is the god of the heavens? Who believes Ra is the all powerful god? Maybe a few, but whynot call "Jesus Christ" and "Genesis" a mythology. No, they are biblical origin stories. I'll work on how to rewite this, and see what else I can add. Waiting for a book to some in that has more stories and culture behind it to also add. Stories, origin stories, and that kind of things. OldManRivers 08:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge

  • There are two identical Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw pages on Wikipedia, this one containing more inforation. They need to be merged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xnux (talk • contribs) 29 September 2006
  • Yeah, no doubt; and see Talk:Skwxwu7mesh Uxwumixw for a renaming of the merged article to Squamish Nation, which got un-named for reasons of political correctness; as if "Skwxwu7mesh Uxwumixw" was an English name/word, which of course it's not. BC media/academia have gotten in the habit of using the indigenous-language names for various peoples around the province (but not all) and it's a slippery slope as in encyclopedia terms they should be indexed by their English name(s) (or as User:OldManRivers slagged them, the "bastardized colonialized" version). The distinction becomes all the more important in some cases where a particular band may not belong to a particular nation/government, yet still be part of the same people (through Shuswap and Thompson and Carrier territory, likewise the Chilcotin, Skeena, Okanagan). The pretense is that "bastardized colonialists" should be forced to use the indigenous names, much as in Canadian English we now put the accents on Montreal and Quebec (I don't when I'm writing English, though) while conversely Quebecois French takes liberties with translating the names of the other provinces into French (why Nova Scotia has to be translated from Latin to French is still a mystery to me). But back to BC - there's a big list of Wiki articles with indigenous-language names that don't mean ANYTHING outside of British Columbia, except to linguists and anthropologists familiar with the turf (and typically cursed with p.c.-ism anyway because of the prevailing prejudices in modern academia). Tsilhqot'in (Chilcotin), St'at'imc (Lillooet), Laich-kwil-tach (Euclataws/Yucultas or Southern Kwakiutl), Nlaka'pamux (Thompson), Secwepemc (Shuswap), Nuu-chah-nulth (Nootka), Kwakawka'wakw (Kwakiutl), Sneneymux (Nanaimo), Shishalh (Sechelt) and so on. Presuming that whitey should have to learn/remember these names is a sure-fire way for most whiteys to not even bother giving a damn; especially when the prononciations for names like St'at'imc and Secwepemc are ANYTHING but obvious; you have to know the orthography, i.e. the different way of using the Latin alphabet that is now "official" within these languages, but very different from the way the same alphabet (minus quite a few accents, diacriticals and sub/superscripts) is used in English. Fine, if you don't want anyone to be able to pronounce - or remember - your people's name; obscurity and oblivion are often born of misplaced pride.....it should be pointed out that in the rest of North America, the page for (e.g.) Comanche language, is titled just like that, not Numu tekwapu. The native-orthography thing gets a bit inane sometimes, as the Lillooet-language adaptation of Cayoosh, a prominent local placename, originally from Spanish (from caballo) is now to be rendered Kiy-oose in order to make it look "more Indian" (even though the same band has virtually banned study of the local variant of the Chinook Jargon in order to preserve the Lillooet language, aka St'at'imcets)....friend just arrived, more later.Skookum1 02:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree the articles should be merged. In another 4 days or so the other page will probably be moved to Squamish Nation. When that's done, let's merge this page into the other one so we have one article with a name that's widely understood and all the information in one place. Kla'quot 08:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The move is done. Go for it. Andrewa 06:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Came back to my peoples page. After reading more about Wikipedia, I been able to ponder about the merge. This page should not be moved to Squamish Nation, but use this page for the people, culture, history. Squamish Nation would be the political affiliation of the Squamish First Nations as designated in the Indian Act, it being a Indian Act band council run in the territory. I also noticed the design was "made", but that was in Oct. or Sept.? Am I way off, or is this possible? OldManRivers 05:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, then, that works - this is the "ethno/people" article, then, and the other is the band government, i.e. Indian Act creation. That works and also coincides with standards elsewhere, where the preferred form is for the people, while the reservation/agency/federation/confederacy/whatever is the political article; now it's question of which category it's in; so this one's NOT in Category:First Nations governments in British Columbia, while it IS in Category:First Nations in British Columbia. Make sense? Works for me now.....same idea would apply over at Kwakwaka'wakw as I was trying to explain on Talk:Kwakwakaw'akw.Skookum1 06:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I should explain that that second category is a bit of a conundrum in its name, since many First Nations governents use First Nation in their title; but say in the case of the Nlaka'pamux the Nlaka'pamux First Nation doesn't include all Nlaka'pamux communities, which can fall under other organizations; and there are two parallel ones in the Canyon, as well as isolates (as with N'quatqua]] within the St'a'timc, who are not part of the St'at'imc Ucwalmicw which is the St'at'imcets version of the Lillooet Tribal Council, even though it refers; although in that case St'at'imc is used as the ethno/people title and St'at'imc Ucwalmicw which is equivalent to this title here in context, is a redirect to Lillooet Tribal Council, even though in technical linguistic terms the N'quat'qua and In-SHUCK-ch are also part of the Ucwalmicw; but as Ucwalmicw is used as a government title by the LTC....y'see how tangled it gets. Pretty confusing for a sama7 (pron. "shama") but I'm trying to straighten it out so everything connects together the right way....Skookum1 06:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the whole "First Nations" debacle, is that some consider themselves apart of the "First Nations", which is a term used to replace "Band", where others see it as the extension of the Indian Act governments, which are illegal governments in our territories. So, it differs even more because some people may consider themselves apart of the First Nations category, (usually elected councilors or chiefs), but others don't consider themselves apart of that. Which could kind of create two different thing within one group of people. OldManRivers 07:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Also see First Nations in British Columbia as to how many articles there are yet to be done to "complete the roster" and also why there's a slightly different web for people/ethno and community and language article/categories; e.g. some organizations are jointly Carrier-Chilcotin, another I can think of is Carrier-Tsimshian (Gitksan-Wet'su-we'ten, that is), and there are others. I'd like your opinion on the issues raised on Somena and Talk:Somena, also, and advice on how to differentiate the Chehalis (tribe) article from a putative Chehalis people article for the Fraser Valley group, who though they are Halqemeylem speakers, are not part of the Sto:lo nor ever have been. Also about to do drafts on the Scowlitz Mounds (aka Fraser Valley Pyramids) and other stuff from a book I found at Bby PL People of Harrison. I'm interested in the history of the old Skayuks villages on the lower Stave, too (I was raised by Ruskin Dam; we used to have an old dugout on the river and played in the old orchard on the IR down the road...which was abandoned by then except for the non-native ex-husband of a native woman he'd outlived....Mr. Haines...I used to deliver his paper...in behind was a bit of old logging, with corduroy road, huge old second-growth we called "the Lost Forest"....apparently those reserves are Whonnock Band, which falls now under Kwantlen...? But was a separate group within the Sto:lo at one time....).Skookum1 06:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It gets confusing because of pre-contact ties and modern ties. Band Council/Indian Act things is what really garble up the alliances, allegiances, and affiliations between nations, peoples, and villages. (Like Skwxwu7mesh and Tsleil-Wau-tuth). I'm actually pretty unfamiliar with the Cowichan tribes history, although I have friends and family from there. But, I'll see what I can do. OldManRivers 07:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
BTW are the Tseil-wau-tuth historically Halkomelem-speaking or Skwxwu7mesh snichim; currently based on Web content elsewhere, they're assinged in Wikipedia to Halkomelem-speaking.Skookum1 20:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Occurred to me to dig to see what I could come up with on the Whonnock Reserve/Band. Back when I was in high school there were still some residents; including I think the Gongs, who were Chinese-Canadian and (I think) part Whonnock; I'll ask next time I'm out there one of the old-timers I know (we're old timers now, we were young punks back then...).Skookum1 06:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Their language is Skwxwu7mesh. OldManRivers 00:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
That's what I thought, originally; I'd seen something different in the pages of the Sun or another non-source so changed it to Halqemeylem; I'll change it back. Makes a lot more sense, despite the proximity of the Kway-quit-lams at/near Port Moody...BTW would like to do a COTM (collaboration of the month) on Dan George, towards an FA (featured article)....waddya think?Skookum1 02:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
That would be good. Where are some links to read about COTM's and FA's. Still learning more about wikipedia. Thanks OldManRivers 05:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Chinook Jargon among the Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw?

I'd be grateful for information/resources on the Chinook Jargon as it was used among the Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw, if you have any materials in your resources/library; see Talk:Chinook Jargon and also List of Chinook Jargon placenames, which I built; I'm an amateur chinookologist and although I haven't worked on my site in a while the Chinook Jargon Information Superhighway it's pretty thorough; but I've always wanted to find more from-BC materials on the CJ, instead of just Columbia River/stateside sources like Shaw, Gibbs, Harper, Pasco and El Comancho. All of which I've got on photocopy if you're interested by the way (Shaw is completely online via my site and others, though). Pe skookum mamook pe mahsh naika iktas, hyas mahsie!Skookum1 06:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can dig up. Most of my great grandparents on my father's side spoke it as a first language, and a few of our songs contain Chinook lyrics. As for place names, I'm not sure what there is. I've always been interested in learning the Chinook Jargon (After Skwxwu7mesh, Shishalh and Kwakwalla), but with the mixture of English, Russian, French and Spanish, or what ever other settler language. But, I'll see what I can do. Also, thanks for using Skwxwu7mesh. But if just Skwxwu7mesh is fine. Adding "ulh" to the end means "our" and together with "Skwxwu7mesh-ulh Uxwumixw" it's "Our Squamish Nation". Skwxwu7mesh is who I am, but xwemelch'stn is where I am from. So just Skwxwu7mesh is fine. But thank you. It feels a lot more refreshing to hear/read that then Squamish. OldManRivers 07:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Skwxwu7mesh snichem or Squamish Language

After searching for it, I found that there was no article for the language of the people. It isn't Helke7minem(sp?), or Shishilh (although more closely related to the latter) Create new article for Skwxwu7mesh Snichem? Yes, no? OldManRivers 07:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please. Have a look at language categories off the Indigenous People's Project on the template above and see how other language pages are laid out; make sure you put in the correct categories and a linguist Wikipedian will be by to put in more stuff; check out St'at'imcets as it's one of the models; or Nuxalk language I think is done by now. No one's written Okanagan language - t he preferred form, i.e. use "Squamish language" with the version in Skwxwu7mesh snichim form bolded, but as a redirect. It's what it's called in English, again, as before for the political article. Usually, though - geez, I'm really gonna have to look over the Indigenous WikiProject's variosu well-developed pages and have a good look, as to what form is preferred BC examples aren't that good because say with Nlaka'pamux the language area hasn't split off yet, if it's been written. And by the way, don't forget, Wikimedia takes in Meta-Wikis which means you can use this technology to build a Skwxwu7mesh snichim, and THERE the titles can be in Skwxwu7mesh snichim, and should be. You can make a community-written history with this technology, with everyone contributing over the generations; in your own language. Check the Meta-Wiki area out....Skookum1 09:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Whoa, I'm not intimidated at all by that. OldManRivers 09:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Mistake

As far as I know, this was done by me. I didn't notice this till I was doing a link from the Lost Lagoon page, but the spelling of this page is wrong. Right now in "uxwumixw" there is an extra "i", after the "u". Also, in Skwxu7mesh, the "k" and "u" are supposed to be underlines. I understand the hardness of our own orthography, and the the importance of using the IPA. I apologize for the mix-up and spelling error.

Could we perhaps, create the page for "Sḵwxwú7mesh", with no "uxwumixw". This page would be about the culture, history, and everything, with Squamish Nation, to be the political indian act, band council, government. What do you think? OldManRivers 21:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

table of name variations?

Sḵwxwú7mesh snichim name IPA Location/IR Location/town/city older "official" spellings (anthropologists/linguists as well as other uses) anglicized/archaic variants/adaptations comments
eslha7an "--IPA form here--" Mission I.R No. 1 North Vancouver Uslawn, Uslahawn
xwemelch'stn "--IPA form here--" Capilano I.R#3 North Vancouver (Lions Gate) Homulchesan, Whulmechosan
chi'ch'elxwikw' "--IPA form here--" Seymour I.R. No.2 Second Narrows, North Vancouver (No local "English" name)
xwayxway "--IPA form here--" Lumbermans Arch, Stanley Park Vancouver Qwhy-qwhy, whoi whoi, kwoi-kwoi
senakw "--IPA form here--" Vanier Park (IR lands now located under Burrard Street Bridge) Kitsilano Snauq, Snawk
schenks "--IPA form here--" Gibsons Landing I.R#26 Gibsons, BC (No local "English" name)
chekwelhp "--IPA form here--" Gibsons Landing I.R Gibsons, BC (No local "English" name)
k'ik'elxn "--IPA form here--" Port Mellon I.R. No.24 (No local "English" name)
kywetin "--IPA form here--" Kowtain I.R. No.17 Garibaldi Highlands (Squamish) Kowtain
yekw'apsem "--IPA form here--" I.R. No.18 (No local "English" name)
wiwkem "--IPA form here--" Brackendale I.R. No.14 Brackendale (Squamish) (No local "English" name)
chiyakmesh "--IPA form here--" Cheakmes I.R. No.11 Brackendale (Squamish) Cheakamus (IPA form here,"CHEEK-a-mus"
t'ekw'takwemey "--IPA form here--" ((No local "English" name)
ch'wkech'ekts "--IPA form here--" ((No local "English" name)
puyam "--IPA form here--" (No local "English" name)
tsitsusem "--IPA form here--" Potlatch Creek, Howe Sound (No local "English" name)
sta7mes "--IPA form here--" Stawamus

Skookum1 09:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Part of the point of this table is to x-reference possible redirects, i.e. Homulchesan should exist because people will find it in books, especially old books; likewise Whoi whoi and Qwhy-qwhy, w/wo hyphens; but all should be redirects to our Skwxwu7mesh snichim titled-page (see the various village and clan articles that branch off from Tsimshian, by the way....).

This look great. Yeah, the ones your not sure about for "English variations" are correct. (Cheekeye, etc.) The other villages, I don't think they had English variations. There are more, but I have the template now. I say, add it to the page? OldManRivers 08:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The background's a bit grim; I copied the table-frame from one of the highways list - no, it was List of crossings of the Fraser, which I haven't taken north or Riske Creek yet; but without the equivalent of the highway logos it looks pretty drab; there's probably a desirable colourstyle format for Wikipedia tables of this kind; what might dress it up whatever the background would be pictures of each place; and don't forget we have to get someone to render the IPA; unless it's in some of whatever textbooks and resources you've got compiled over there at Xwmelchtsn (that's without looking, I wonder if I got it yet?); the Skwxwu7mesh snichim orthography has to have the IPA with it by Wiki standards, and often English pages and words have them (which I've never done for my Chinook pages, either my own site or here on Wiki, come to think of it). If we get the table format down there's other articles that could use them, like the two sections that are lists of meanings on Nuu-chah-nulth that also need comparative columns - again because of needin a column (or a comma, and sloppy-looking paragraphs) for the traditional language, the IPA, the linguists' variations, older official spellings, non-FN spellings, or what the historic names/spellings were like. It's a common theme on many FN pages, and hopefully someone will follow suit on the St'at'imc Nlaka'pamux and Secwepemc name-lists, which don't have translations as yet; although a lot of info on various nations is already online, I just haven't time to transfer all of what I found, ie. what Tsawaiteneuk means (in or out of its official 'Dzawe- variations which I'm not even going to try to spell right now ';; there's too much of it to do, but the idea is to establish a framework that other people can expand upon easily and, seeing the format, create new articles around it, or have the time to take what other people have put in, diary-style (as is often the case) or even news bulletins, and turn it into encyclopedic form, and trying to cover all the bases, and hopefully so it's easy to understand.

Don't mean to go on; if you like the table and made yer fixes, fire away and transfer it; but I'd say lose the grim-grey and try and come up with something, even just plain white; I'm not sure about lines around the boxes or not; not a template at all (I hate those purple-and-red colour schemae....) but more like a page/column layout; and maybe with pics.

Y'know what would be neat over time? Articles on each traditional foodstuff in each nation; what it was called, how it was prepared, what it's good for. Just a thought; First Nations recipes, as it were, or cuisine articles anyway. Might be interesting, huh? For someone, anyway (not me - just tossing over the idea for thought). Mmmmmm, xoosum - I miss it - never had the icecream version, though, not since I was a kid; still know what salal tastes like over all other berries....ever had hakwa7 (? might be xak'wac or something different in the new spelling). "Indian rhubarb". not sweet or ?? - more like a leafy green with a stalk, like dryland bok choy or something. Grows real big up on the Portage, and around Shalalth; more like lettuce or cabbage in taste, maybe like a kale sort of (?) Major foodstuff traditionally around there, not sure about down here....Still hoping someone from the Country of the Ochre River People (the English translation of Tsilqot'in qo=river, tsil-ochre tin=people, but maybe you knew that already....) will cough up the recipe to Itcha Mountain Fog; maybe the name's out of date, like a one-time joke when Paul St. Pierre wrote about it, but that whole country's changed, like all of this place I guess; but local uniquenesses of that kind would really bring out any article on any people; that's why I find the character stories like Nicola and Hunter Jack and Lolo/St. Paul and over into Gunanoot and Slumach as interesting; the trick with getting past the stub is to make sure that all the articles don't read alike, like a script; as is also the case with all the "regular" small towns and local societies/identities, e.g. Vernon, Penticton, PG, smalltowns, big towns, whatever). It shouldn't be all stats and policy histories; local colour's really important IMO. Anyway, g'nite and that's it or I'll ramble on more, and while I'm going on about things relevant to article content here, by way of direction and potential content (and sub-articles, as you've by now seen the range of individual and historical articles that any one First Nation's core page can link out to; even the Category:Gitxsan despite the lack of a real core article on government; and often a focus on the anthropologists connected with the group, rather than members of the group per se (interesting, no?). Anyway, g'nite - and twiddle with the table 'til you like its look (to fiddle with the colour, etc - snitch the code from other tables...); then just transfer it over; it may be better in the long run, as with the Nuu-chah-nulth page and elsewhere, for lists of placenames to be on the language page; although there has to be a listing of all main groups, obviously, and people have to know what they mean; in the long run the table hopefully won't dominate the page; maps, images, more write-up; this is just interesting to anyone from outside, so make it easy to read, I'd think, is the main goal. Unlike my rambles ;-) Skookum1 10:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Language article

As for the language article, which I'll make the stub for just to get it rolling if you want, the article itself can carry the "snichim title" but the others should be listed (see Oowekyala language, for instance, or Wuikinuxv). Likewise the language article can have the "snichim title" (using "shorthand" here, sorry) but the alternates should be listed right away, and also bolded, esp. Squamish language but also Sko-ko-mish language not because they're correct but because they're usages people are going to find, and will look up; otherwise they'll wind up at Skokomish or Suguamish etc (dablines to and from those pages I'd also advise be made; don't assume Wikipedia's readers know something that locally is obvious; or usually is (I still come across things printed in modern times in the States where they think you guys and the Suguamish are the same people...). But go ahead and write the language article; I'd almost say Skwxwu7mesh snichim language is the most Wiki-proper title, but if "snichim" means "language" or "speech" I guess it's redundant, but only in an absolute sense; "Oowekyala" means "language of the Oowekeno" just as Kwakwaka'wakw dervies from Kwak'wala (for all I know "Oowekeno" means "people who speak Oowekyala"....Wuik'yala/Wuikyala vs. Wuikinuxv in that spellling form, which is the preferred one now); but the page nonetheless is named Oowekyala language so that people know it's a language page they're at...

Likewise Kwak'wala, which currently redirects to Kwakiutl language (gasp, but don't blame me, it was written by the Yinka Dene crowd, as far as I can tell, or by linguists anyway) and should be at least part of the title of a retitled page (based on your reasons as laid out, and well-known, from Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw and Talk:Kwakiutl); but Wiki-proper form the main article there should be Kwak'wala language; it can be Kwak'wala, but again it's clarity and "leading people by the nose" that is the goal of the encyclopedia, as well as "correct cultural representation". Whatever's chosen, Skwxwu7mesh snichim, Skwxwu7mesh snichim language, Skwxwu7mesh language or Squamish language (English names for aboriginal languages are a common format used elsewhere in BC, but not exclusively - that happens to be a redirect to Squamish language at the moment, but it shouldn't be in the long run),

The comparable form to Oowekyala language or St'at'imcets language would be, it seems Skwxwu7mesh snichim language, which is a mouthful (and hard to type, too ;-0) but whatever's chosen, just make sure it's "redirect hell", which all possible variations directing to whatever the main article is.....I'll help with the categories, or can kind of figure them out from looking at Nuu-chah-nulth language or Halkomelem language or whatever (more examples of the native-name-plus-"language" titling format......Skookum1 10:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You are pretty bang on about it, and I agree. Sḵwxwú7mesh language or Sḵwxwú7mesh Language to me seems the most correct with English Language and French Language. It would be redundant with snichem or nichem in there. I've been intimidated to start the language pages mostly because my history of screwing up redirects (Like my problem with Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw which should be Sḵwxwú7mesh. I say Sḵwxwú7mesh Language with redirects going there. OldManRivers 11:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I can start the stub, and you can add to it; I have my reservations about the non-standard characters, though; the subscript mini-k I mean, and the accent-u; it's one of the issues with the importation of First Nations words into regular English usage that I have problems with; as with the Stl'atl'imx/St'at'imc/Stlatliumh thing - I linked St'at'imc so you can see the non-standard characters/apostophes on the destination page, which I have no idea how to type; same with the subscript 'k'. I don't know if there's Wiki policy on this or not....hmm let me see...Ceslaw Milosz is a Polish Nobel laureate who I know has "special characters" in his Polish spelling, but never in an English newspaper; let's see what that does in terms of redirects and I'll be back to continue in a sec.Skookum1 19:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Well, they use the Polish slash-l in Czesław Miłosz so I guess the small-k underscore is OK; I imagine the same applies across the board with Hungarian, Czech, Croat and Romanian names in Wikipedia (they have witches' brews of alphabets; also the tonemarks in Vietnamese are used...) so I'll drop my objections about "Sḵwxwú7mesh" and will just have to make the redirects with the ordinary k.....might as well start the stub; look for it in about five minutes (it's 11:20am); I may not get all redirects done this morning but rest assured I'll work my way through all possibilities (see "what links here" at Wuikinuxv people and Oowekyala language for an idea of the potential range....)Skookum1 19:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Note: I'm starting the stub with the version with the small-case L on "language", as that's Wiki standard....Skookum1 19:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Stub created; see Sḵwxwú7mesh language and Talk:Sḵwxwú7mesh language and note in-line comments on main page; or hell, I might as well just make those stubs right now, too (by copying this one....). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skookum1 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

All theoretical redirects known have been made; see Sḵwxwú7mesh language and use "What links here" in menu at left; if there's others just make them, or ask me to.Skookum1 02:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

translations and map(s)

Uxwuimuxw should be defined/translated, by the way, and a discussion of the different contexts of -ullh and uxwuimuxw shoudl be made (and parallels in other Salishan languages, e.g. St'at'imcets has ucwimalcw I think); and English versions/translations of each provided; the dab line isn't enough to provide context for people from outside BC, and non-English should always be translated; Squamish people should redirect here btw, and if someone tried Squamish (tribe) (a common format in the states, it would come here, as opposed to Squamish Reservation (as an American might also type) and you' get the Indian Reserve; Squamish Nation goes there of course. I was thinking a map - ah, that was the other point from the Xwmelch'tsn page - a map of the village/names and their sites relative to both the modern Lower Mainland/Howe Sound map (i.e. streets, brigdes, the woiks), and also to the old pre-urbanization map; I can make it if you're not familiar how; but I don't have source map to work from; unless there's one the Uxwuimuxw would care to release to the public domain, which is another way to do it.. ??Skookum1 11:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Sḵwxwú7mesh link conversions

Just a reminder, it's good and OK to use the proper name of the language on any page, but you should always provide the conventional English form; this is why my comment about Squamish people being a different redirect than Squamish Nation. If I look for Palouse (tribe), for instance, I'd get Palus (which is how they spell it, vs the usual anglicization, which is allegedly from French, or similar enough to a French word to hvae been taken as such anyway; supposedly it means "rock standing up" and was a rock at the junction of the Snake and Columbia; but in French it means grassland. Anyway, when in Siwash Rock etc you give the "Sḵwxwú7mesh name" the text should still say in brackets "(Squamish langauge)" or just used Squamish people and link it through to Sḵwxwú7mesh. Remember you can't expect these spellings, especially with atypyical characters, to become readable easily to people from wherever else; it's good and necessary to have the correct traditional language, but as a frame of reference, if only a few times in the article, still use the older names, or the usual English phrase, directly linked to Sḵwxwú7mesh or in brackets after a usage of Sḵwxwú7mesh....in time the new, complex spellings will get absorbed; but if you force it on them in the absence of the usual variants, nobody will read it (and someone else will ultimately need/add it back in, since remember no one "owns" any article....).Skookum1 11:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

And Nootka? Kwagiutl? Northren Kwagiutl or Southren Tsimshian? I understand what your saying, and yes I agree that there should be "(Otherwise known as "Squamish)" beside it or something of that nature. But the reference of the people, not the nation, should be. I guess I agree with you. lol OldManRivers 05:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Map

I've seen maps of places on other sites of the traditional territory that are created on wikipedia. Does anyone know how to make these? And could we make one for this page. The BC Treaty Commission website has a picture of the boundries, and if you google search there are a couple (like this one. It clearly identifies for people coming to the page. And underneith the picture there could be a little write up how land juristiction with the Indigenous people isn't how Western colonial understanding explains it. "Ownership" didn't exactly exist, but people just used the land. That the map isn't a definitive boarder of the territory, but that the Musquem, Tsiel-wau-tuth, Shishalh, Lil'wat, all had shaired boarders and used it. If I knew how to make it I would, but I don't. Anyone know how? OldManRivers 05:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi; the BC TreatyNet maps are complicated critters, and are based on a different set of government maps than Basemap. I saw another set - a very elaborate set - linked off one of the First Nations pages I found while making all those TC articles lately; I think it was First Nations Language and Culture org, can't think of its name at the moment (a friend closed my browser after checking his email, closing a whole bunch of pages I had open on other tabs....grrrr) but I think it was linked off of one of the Shuswap Nation webpages. Unlike Basemap this stuff isn't copyrighted, I don't think, so if there's someone in Wikiworld who can figure out the code the source material can be used for original maps. I'll see if I can remember to dig it up - it was a multi-layered map where you could turn on and off different language-areas, and they were semi-transparent and would flicker on and off if the mouse came over them; pretty neat; it's noted on that map's legend, by the way, is that's its only langage geography that's shown and no implications are intended on land claims; which is why Pentlatch and Stuwix are shown, even though both those peoples are extinct (linguistically and otherwise). The same map system is actually used for mining and forestry and stuff too ("multiple-use data" in government-speak, no doubt). The WC2 map is very good, and it's good the Skwxwu7mesh have shared their cultural-area data with an NGO like that; the St'a't'imc are much less forthcoming with aboriginal placenames; I think there's something equivalent for the Stein, too, and the Tla-o-qui-aht First Nations have done the same for the Clayoquot Sound Biosphere Preserve or whatever its proper name is). As always, the English/translation meaning of each of those aboriginally-named heritage/ecological spaces on the WC2 map should be mentioned in any rendering of the same stuff here; if there's details as to the why and wherefore of each of those they might/are worth separate sub-articles btw, in the long run anyway.Skookum1 19:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Khatsahlano-Xats'alanexw

The Kitsilano neighbourhood, for example, of Vancouver is named after a Squamish chief, Xats'alanexw (Khatsahlano a.k.a. August Jack)

Redlinked those because he, and the title/lineage, needs an article on a high priority basis; you know my sentiment is that the K-spelling be used rather than the more linguistically-correct X, as it's current in the local media and meant to be a First Nations-friendly version of Kitsilano; I've seen a Q-spelling too and h's in different place,s like -lahno, so all variants should be listed, and made redirects of including August Jack. But whatever the title chosen is, other variations should have redirects, no matter how obscure (so that if someone finds them in an old book or in the media, if they search Wikipedia they'll find them, although not necessarily at the spelling they looked up). I think I even made Hwistesmexte'qen as a redirect to Nicola, although in that case Nicola became as much his name as his given name (which is in Spokan, actually, not Nlaka'pamuctsn or Syilx'tsn) (if that doesn't work it's because I didn't spell it quite right)Skookum1 07:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Let's do it. This will start to build a bigger list of famous Sḵwxwú7mesh people. Adding to Joe Capilano, Khatsahlano, Andrew Paull, August Jack, and others. Make it so number 1. OldManRivers 07:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Gotta correct me, though - I thought Khatsahlano was August Jack; or not? Anyway, I'll still need the proper background material from your people's history to start these, unless you'd care to do the first go on them; I don't know enough about these guys to write even stubs (birth/death, lineage, etc).Skookum1 07:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
haha. I'll see what I can do. I want to be careful as not to screw it up. But the lowdown is:
  • Khatsahlano (Xats'alanexw) was the man who lived in Sneakw, at the time of contact.
  • August Jack Khatsahalno (Xsts'alanexw) is the grandson of Khatsahalno. This man is known through Major Mathews, and other stuff. He's one what we call around here, "the old timers". Our elders, elder. August Jack, Dominic Charlie, Jimmy Jimmy, etc.
Surprisingly I don't know who carries that name (Xsts'alanexw) at the moment. Ancestrial names and handed down through liniage, but I am not sure who carries it at the moment. I know of the few other Original Ones, but I'm going to ask about this. (The Original Ones are the people who carry the name that end with "lanexw", meaing "Skwxwu7mesh" and "Land".(An example is Kayapalanexw, but rendered "Capilano") These people were given the names after the flood. There were many of them and each of them have names that end in "lanexw". I'll ask around. I'm not sure, but August Jack will have a lot more information on his then his grandfather will, but, the name Xsts'alanexw has history that goes back far. OldManRivers 08:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I say make the page August Jack with Khatsahalano and other possible varrients as a redirect, but if possible, make (Khatsahalano) in brackets beside August Jacket. It would looke like August Jack (Khatsahalno). Is it possible? OldManRivers 06:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

XwMuthkwium, and...

See notes on Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw. And speaking of which, shouldn't that page be merged with this one now? Not that a formal merge was posted, but this page is like a second (er, third) version of that one; notice you've been working on both; unless there's a valid reason - maybe lexical? - why the other should exist, it should probably only be a redirect to this one now, after its information is assimilated here anyway. Also I note [[XwMuthkwium is a redirect to Musqueam Indian Band; I'm not prepped to write a separate Musqueam article under any spelling; can you, or do you know someone in Musqueam who might be into it?Skookum1 22:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I tried merging that article to this one. It should be merged. Sḵwxwú7mesh should be the page used. And as for the XwMuthkwium page, I mentioned on the other, that is how they spell it. I forgot how to spell Musqueam in out language. It sounds similar though. (Xw-mets-kwe-em) or something err' rather. I don't spell Sḵwxwú7mesh language the best, but I'm learning. I could create another article. But what would be do with "Musqueam Indian Band"? Redirect to Musqueam First Nations and make that a political article similar to Squamish Nation? Sounds good to me. I don't have much history of Musqueam, but there is probably some stuff out there. OldManRivers 03:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

About Musqeam - that's the reason why a separate ethno article for Musqueam, parallel to Skwxwu7mesh. As for the Khatsahlano thing, that should be an article on the title/lineage; and have an individual article on each, with August Jack's as "August Jack Khatsahlano" as that is partly, sort of, his name in English as well; I don't think the parentheses are necessary, but maybe someone might have some different thoughts if you ask on the BC project talkpage.Skookum1 06:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Article title

What's the story of the title of this article? The Squamish nation website spells it Sḵx̱úm̍ish (I'm not sure how well that's going to display here).

Also, I think I understand the distinction between this article and Squamish Nation, but why is there a third Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw article?—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 18:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This is going to be awfully weird but where to start. The website for the Squamish Nation is 1.) The Band Council Indian Act Government 2.)Spelt it wrong. The communications officer is a goofball. I talked to him about it. Apparently they are in the process of updating it, but that is the wrong spelling. As for the other 3rd page. It shouldn't be there. There was this big mix up when I created another page for it, but that page should be merged/redirected with this one. I'm just not sure how to do that (Help!) OldManRivers 07:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Just look at any redirect page directly in edit mode and you'll see how it's done, but here it is with nowiki: #REDIRECT[[ArticleName]] ; and just cut/copy-paste over what you want fgrom the material that will become the redirect, and leave that bit of code there (with the correct article name). Caps aren't necessary to the code but are kind of stylistic for whatever reason. NB any other possible spellings, including old spellings used both by your people and also by ethnologists/linguists, should be listed and/or made redirects (if already listed), and in bold, in the opening paragraph; i.e. anything that's a redirect; including the Uxwumixw (Uxwuimixw?) usage, with an explanation of what it means vs Skwxwu7mesh by itself. Variant spellings, and archaic/historical ones, are common fare in all ethnographic articles, at least the more completed/filled out ones; the idea is that anything someone might search for, without knowing your spelling, will still lead here, and the bolding is to mark anything that redirected.Skookum1 08:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Fixed redirect

The reason the redirect didn't work is that you left other text in the article after the code; I fixed it and posted all the old article material at Talk:Sḵwxwú7mesh/Uxwuimixw - that might get speedily-deleted so check it over pronto in case there's anything there that should be in this article. I'll ponder your potlach issues, and note the thing about past tense, which bothered me to but I never "went at it" on this article; don't forget to WP:BE BOLD if you see something like that; Given the centrality of the potlatch to BC First Nations peoples and history/culture here, I'd almost think the template might give this a "high" rating, rather than "mid"; but all that means, y'understand, is that high importance means there's a high priority on making it accurate, and something's only made out of what's put into it. Go for it on the potlatch article if you want; a FN point of view; just remember to not deleted other stuff, more like amend it to "so-and-so (source) believed such-and-so, but the First Nations perspective is that...." etc. More on this tomorrow; I've been out playing music and need to mellow out, and find some chow. Just remember not to hold their various mistakes and mistaken persepctives on someone; that they have one at all means they're interested at least, if not fully informed. That's your job.Skookum1 07:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

IPA

I don't know it, but could someone help me get someone who does know it to help with the IPA stuff on this article. Thanks OldManRivers 05:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Who ever went through the villages in the international phonetics is awesome. Thank you. Just also wanted to ask if you could do it for Sḵwxwú7mesh and Squamish. (The spelling of thoes two words in the IPA, ya know) Thanks OldManRivers 01:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


Improving Article

I've been slowly looking at this article, and Kwakwaka'wakw to fix up. Here is a list of things I've figured I'm going to get for the article:

Potlatch, organization, chieftaincy and chieftainship

Kinship

Food

Art, music, carving, design and weaving

History, origins, flood story, first contact(s), gold-rush, HBC

post contact history

Vancouver, Kitsalano, Gastown

It's a good list to start with, yeah? OldManRivers 20:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)