Talk:Sō clan

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[edit] Names, Dates, Chronology

It appears to me that we may have a problem with the names of the notable members of the clan listed here; I don't know where this list originally came from, but it has no dates or other indications of what order it is in. It may have been taken straight from the Japanese article (ja:宗氏), but there too we do not have dates or references, and the list does not appear to coincide properly with that at the article on Tsushima Fuchū Domain. I noticed this in particular while working on the article for Sō Yoshitomo, who is #20 on our list, the son of #15 and adopted son of #17. This, of course, may not be a sign of a problem in itself, as 16, 18, and 19 may be brothers or other rough contemporaries. Nevertheless, our list of daimyo (at the domain article) does not seem to mesh with our list of clan members (this article).

It's a rather obscure topic, and while I intend to look into this myself at the school library, my own sources say very little on the clan and are thus of little use. I would appreciate any help anyone might offer. LordAmeth 01:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The Sengoku Jinmei Jiten has very little aside from two biographies and a two paragraph clan history:

16. Yoshishige (1532-1588) (Succeeded his father Haruyasu). He is listed as the 16th lord of Tsushima, but listed as the 17th head of the clan on the Japanese wikipedia page - if you scroll down to my last paragraph, I believe this is because Sō Shigehisa (宗重尚) was the first lord of Tsushima, but the second lord of the Sō clan.

20. Yoshitoshi (義智 is given the reading "yoshitoshi" in the jiten, as well as the Japanese wikipedia article, and also confirms his adoptive father as Yoshishige, listed above) (1564-1615)

And a limited genealogy (略系図), that doesn't really match up with the Japanese Wikipedia version, although it isn't clear why:

1. 友宗
2. 重尚
3. 助国
4. 盛明
5. 盛国
6. 経茂
7. 頼茂
8. 貞茂
9. 貞盛
10. 成職
11. 貞国
12. 材盛
13. 義盛
14. 盛長
15. 将盛
16. 晴康
17. 義調
18. 茂尚
19. 義純
20. 義智
21. 義成

--Kuuzo 03:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

On page 453 of the Sengoku Jinmei Jiten, it says that in 1246, the 阿比留氏 Abiru clan, who were the Zaichōkanjin on Tsushima, rebelled against the Dazaifu, and so the Sō clan (Headed by Shigehisa (重尚), and known as the "Koremune" clan at this time), was ordered to destroy them. After which the Sō were given Jito status on Tsushima by the Shōni. (I'm not good with these ancient titles, so I linked them to the Japanese wikipedia counterpart for reference). Harimaya also has a fair amount on the Sō clan, including a detailed genealogy. --Kuuzo 04:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

P.453 also mentions that the clan is decended from Taira no Tomomori, with the first lord of the Koremune clan being Tomomune (友宗), his son.

Awesome. Thank you so much for your help. I'll take a look through all of this when I get a chance. I'm so glad there are sources out there on this. LordAmeth 08:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Did I ever do anything with all of this? I honestly can't remember. Help? LordAmeth 23:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the edits and the edit dates, I would guess probably not. --Kuuzo 07:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, well, I've added the Sengoku Jinmei Jiten information. Would it be possible to get a full citation for that book/document, so I can cite it in the article? Thanks. I just noticed the Amazon link you provided above - I've tried to piece together the right reference information from what I could make out, but I'd appreciate if you could take a glance at it, make sure I got the editors' names right, etc. Please, thanks. I'll start working on the Harimaya source in a bit. Thanks again for providing this stuff - very interesting, and useful. LordAmeth 09:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abiru clan

I suppose you guys are aware that we have to be cautious about the origin of the Sō clan because they altered it several times. Unfortunately many sources still state that the Sō clan laid a foundation on Tsushima after crushing the Abiru clan in 1246. It's not credible. The earliest known source recording this event is of the early 17th century. Fragmentary contemporary records show that some members of the Koreamune clan had posts in the local government of Tsushima prior to 1246 and that the Abiru clan was still active after 1246. For more information, see Osa Setsuko 長節子: Sō-shi no shutsuji 宗氏の出自, Chūsei Nitchō kankei to Tsushima 中世日朝関係と対馬, pp. 3-35, 1987. --Nanshu (talk) 09:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow. That's really interesting. Though I'm quite interested in the history of the Sō clan and of Tsushima, I haven't done the kind of research you evidently have. Please do edit the article as you see fit, citing your sources. I'll keep these in mind and try to check them out when I can. LordAmeth (talk) 11:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

“Koreamune” sounds so made up, although I believe you if you say it is a real name. Funny. Wikipeditor (talk) 17:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it's just a typo for the Koremune clan (ja:惟宗氏). LordAmeth (talk) 02:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I see, thanks. Wikipeditor (talk) 11:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)