Talk:São Paulo

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[edit] São Paulo

São paulo is the best new york!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.74.23.59 (talk) 19:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] THE POLICE!!!

Guys, remove the photo from the Police! The photo you guys put, are photo from Policeman of the BARRO BRANCO ACADEMIA, that is a university to make important cops The real cops, you didnt put The ones that appear in the photo are STUDENTS, not real policeman!

[edit] Ethnic diversity

The general numbers maybe are a near estimative, but the 7.5M italian descendants are ABSOLUTELY overestimated, they really are much, but not THAT MUCH. I ask who inserted that information to quote a truthful source, please

The estimated number of Italians was changed to 3 million in the article, but the 7.5 million was for a much wider area (the state) than the city. However, no mention was made on Americans also immigrated to Sao Paolo in the late 1800s. Sao Paolo was said to had 10,000 Confederate citizens came after the U.S. Civil war, partially due to Brazil allowed slavery (until 1888) and massive land booms brought attention to Americans in the U.S. as much it had in Europe. + 207.200.116.68 04:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is an encyclopedia, not a marketing tool

On my last edit I removed unsourced and POV statements such as:

"São Paulo has one of the most sofisticated, and one of the best nightlifes in the world, considered to be the best in Latin America."

"The city is also one of the main business capitals in the wolrd, and the tourism regarding this area is one of the main economic activities in São Paulo, however, cultural tourism is increasing, due mainly to the 70 museums and more than 100 theathers that can be found in São Paulo. People come speccially from South American and also from African and Asian countries to go to São Paulo´s highly developed cultural life."

"In spite of all problems, the city and state governments have been working hard to decrease the numbers of violence and poor housing. On the last years, homicide has decreased in 36%, and crimes regarding robery have also decreased. The São Paulo police is more efficient when it was 10 years ago, and the works on housing, pollution (water and air) and the flooding are also making effect. Although, the problems are still very present on the city´s life, but it is safe to say that the major part of São Paulo has the same problems as every city in the world."

They all came from the same IP: 201.51.49.219. São Paulo City Hall? Tourism Board? I don't know. Maybe just a São Paulo enthusiast and fan of the current administration. In any case, this is an encyclopedia, and statements like those don't belong here. Daniel Trielli 23:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"The city is considered to headquarter more German companies than any other single city outside Germany. Likewise, it is also considered to headquarter more American companies among any other city outside the United States." Either these facts are way overestimated or whoever wrote this please provide some reliable sources.

I kinda agree that this article puts the city in a light that is a million times better than it actually is. There really needs to be sections in this article about the outstanding problems that the city has yet to repair, such as the horrible state the waterways are in (it is barely mentioned), awarenesses tourists need, pictures and metionings of the favelas on the edges of the city, and differences between this city and other developed cities throughout the world. Some other things that should be included is the huge differences in wealth distribution that is hardly noted, police corruption and the reasons behind it, etc.

Charlesblack 20:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Should we add a box to the page that notices the user that the page reads like an add or there are disputes on the neutrality (would it be considered neutrality???)

Charlesblack 20:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's stop with this small-village mentality of believing that everything that comes from Sao Paulo is the best or the largest in the world. So petty and yet so appealing. Unverified stories and legends become actual facts in this webpage. Please check your sources before editing.

[edit] German article

The german article looks really impressive. Has anyone discussed the possibility of a translation yet? PHF 15:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The german article is way much better than the english one. Besides, it's dozens of pictures give the viewer a much better first impression of the city. Can't we post these pictures on this article? Native_earthian 1352, May 19 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why not, looks like a start PHF 00:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

these new pictures are great!

[edit] General Mistakes

Please, post here the small mistakes you find on the page (mistakes you couldn't just erase or fix because it would afect other parts of the article):

Mexico city is not located on the [southern hemisphere] as it was claimed on the airspace section. native_earthian 1346, 5/19/2006 (UTC)

I got one, your spelling on affect. Just kidding of course... : )

Charlesblack 20:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No location map?

This article doesn't actually show me where in Brazil São Paulo is located. -GTBacchus(talk) 11:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Just added a pic in the geography section. PHF 16:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 :I think GTBacchus meant where in Brazil Sao Paulo is located, not where in Sao Paulo state.

[edit] About the vans

I know you are somewhat aware of such rosy views of São Paulo despicted above, but this one is for sure. Since 2004, there's not anymore unregistered vans in the city. But I have to add that this kind of tansport is operated in a very suspicious scheme by semi-mafious "cooperatives", which some people believe - until now, without a proof - to be related to PCC. I can find a source, but probally it will be worthless for the article, as it will not be in English. NeedABrain 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Up until now I thought sources in portuguese were fine? Be bold! Do it anyway. PHF 04:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Observation points

Are there public observation decks on some skyscrapers? If yes, on which?

Yes, but I think São Paulo skyscrappers are quite frustrating. There are rooftop bars in the 45-story Italia Building[1] as well, nearby Paulista Avenue, the famous The View Bar[2] (that one at a modest 30th floor, but in the highest part of the city's plateau). You find free observation posts in the ludicrous Banespa Building (a.k.a. Pocket Empire State)[3] and the crappy highrise favela Zarzur Kogan [4] (this 55 story eyesore is the tallest building in the city. Makes me sick.). NeedABrain 00:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Or... that´s just your opinion...dear... need a brain.

Dornicke

Buildings in Sao Paulo are not tall due to very restrict city laws about construction and land use. Some fire disasters in the 70´s forced the administration to change the laws, focusing more on security and safety. There´s a relation between the height and the width of the building - the highest the construction, the wider the building base and the land required, even if it´s technically possible to build it in a smaller area. In São Paulo, building a 70-floor building is more expensive than bulding two 35-floors high-rises, so the number of buildings increase drastically in the last 20 years (today there are 5200 building above 10-floors, or 25 meters, in the city). Buildings in São Paulo are recognized by their shape and architecture, not height.

[edit] New Page

I've completely reorganised the once hectic page according to Wikipedia's style guideline for cities, Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities#Structure_.28format_for_city_template.29. I also removed many of the images as some are irrelevant and there were far too many. There are enough great images in this page as it is now which fulfil Wikipedia's role to draw the reader in, not show him a poster design competition! See Wikipedia:Images for more details. I have done some copy-edits but this page is in need of a thorough copy-edit as there are many spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. Please all memebers of the Brazil Wikiproject or indeed anyone continue with the copy edit. Jaw101ie 19:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

As suggested by Wikipedia's style guideline Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style and hence followed by many other articles herein, I'd recommend that each entry should be defined (and linked to other articles) only once, preferably on the first time it appears on text. I've lost count of how many times the word "italian" was linked to its respective article "Italian people" in the Sao Paulo page.

[edit] Requested move to "São Paulo City"

Anyone interested please check Talk:São Paulo (state). Raphael.lorenzeto 13:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source for Complexo Metropolitano Estendido definition?

I noticed the information about a definition of São Paulo's metropolitan region here called Complexo Metropolitano Estendido. The source says IBGE [5] but I couldn't find anything on their webpage about this. When I searched the web it seems that as good as all pages having this information are either Wikipedia pages (in different languages) or pages clearly having Wikipedia as their source. Can anyone confirm (with direct source) that this definition is an official one by IBGE? I feel that this definition is too optimistic and just a try to give São Paulo a higher ranking amongs the world's cities, and that the official definition of Região Metropolitana de São Paulo is the only correct one as it is now. If no-one can come up with a good source to confirm the existance of a Complexo Metropolitano Estendido, I suggest that this information shall be erased. --Pjred 17:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That should be Complexo Metropolitano Expandido, not Estendido. I'll try to find a reference later. Fvasconcellos 18:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I tried the spelling Complexo Metropolitano Expandido instead and found this page [6]. Still, an increadibly optimistic definition with a total area of 42 737 km² :-O! This definition can only qualify in a discussion of Megalopolises, and not in a comparision of Urban agglomerations and Metropolitan Areas around the world. I suggest to erase the line "more than any other city in the world except Tokyo, Japan with 35 million." because if this generous definition should be used for other similar areas around the world, São Paulo would get surpassed in comparision with at least some Indian, Chinese and U.S. areas. And, I can't find anything about this definition on IBGE:s webpage so maybe IBGE is only the source for the basic population statistics, with another source responsible for the definition itself? --Pjred 19:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this should be reworded. The reference you found clearly states that the definition of CME is still under development. An aside: 35 million is the population of the Greater Tokyo Area; the population of Tokyo proper (Tōkyō-to) is about 12 million according to the Tokyo article. If the info stays, the lead should clearly state that Complexo Metropolitano Expandido is a megalopolis, not the city's official metropolitan area—see the New York City article and how the lead refers to BosWash. Saying "The region forms an almost large urban corridor, or megalopolis, with Rio de Janeiro and Volta Redonda" (?) isn't telling anybody anything. Fvasconcellos 19:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I have now changed the information so it don't compare the population figure of Complexo Metropolitano Expandido with other areas - it just mentions the existence, and I have made it as a red internal link for anyone who wants to write an article about this area. My Portugese is too poor for me to be able to work with the information on the linked page ;-). --Pjred 20:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

-To put this to case to rest, the Rio de Janeiro-Sao Paulo megalopolis contains: cities such as Juiz de Fora, Tres Rios, Nova Friburgo, Greater Rio de Janeiro, Angra dos Reis, Greater Volta Redonda (including Barra Mansa, Resende, etc), Cruziero, Guaratingueta, AND the Complexo Metropolitano Expandido, which itself is composed of Greater Sao Paulo, Baixada Santista, Greater Sorocaba, Greater Campinas, Greater Jundiai (including Várzea Paulista, Campo Limpo Paulista, Nova Odessa), Greater São José dos Campos, Atibaia, and Bragança Paulista. Thus, the Complexo Metropolitano Expandido is like the US definition of Combined Statistical Area, it forms a ring around Sao Paulo city, of course not perfectly round in shape, but maximum of 70 miles radially or so from SP city. (Yes, SP is like NYC core with LA suburban sprawl). HOWEVER, the megalopolis is entirely different in shape, it long and narrow and a series of metropolitan areas, and streches over 300 miles, from Rio de Janeiro to Sao Paulo, with a bulge at the end around Sao Paulo because its is more ringlike. Los Angeles has the same problem, is the metropolitan area defined as LA County and Orange or does it include Riverside and San Bernardino counties too? Well...the answer is both, See metropolitan area and Combined Statistical Area if you don't understand it, but neither are megalopolises. An example of two megalopolises include SouthernCalifornia and SanSan, which includes Northern california to SF as well. San Diego under no circumstances could be considered part of CSA-LA, as under no circumstance Volta Redonda would be part of Complexo Metropolitano Expandido Sao Paulo (CSA-SP). San Francisco people can't be lumped into Greater LA, but it could be considered part of the SanSan megalopolis. So Rio is part of the megalopolis, but not CSA-SP. Get it? In the case of Brazil, Rio-Sao Paulo megalopolis itself is just a part of built up region around Southeastern Brazil which includes Belo Horizonte, just as SoCal is part of SanSan. --Mr.GeoFreak

-As to specific ranking, No Chinese, Indian or other 3rd world city for that matter, not even Mexico City, have built out suburban areas like this. Indian and Chinese cities have very little car usage compared with Brazil until recently, and haven't had time to make vast sprawling suburbia. No doubt they will with time, but sprawl is not something that characterizes poor nations with little fuel to waste, they often have compact cities for this very reason. US cities(car, especially NYC, LA, SFbay, Chicago), Tokyo (rail) and Sao Paulo (ethanol sugar cane powered) are the most sprawling cities on earth today. --Mr.Geofreak

Honestly, I don't see why anyone should be proud of piling up a lot of people in a bunch of buildings. Who wins? We lose. Lose in the queue for the bank cashier, in the waiting for cinema sessions, in the amount of garbage produced by the population, in the horrible traffic that no-one knows why it has to be so bad... Should the population be half of what it is now, we'd be much happier people.
Still, I don't consider the CME definition to be anything else than another megalopolis-like definition. It's useless for size comparisions with other worldwide megacities because when the definition starts to go beyond the boundaries for the Região Metropolitana of São Paulo, there's not much of continuous built-up areas connected with the central urban agglomeration (except perhaps for the extension to the area around Santos). To mention its existence is fair, but to use this definition to rank the São Paulo area as 2nd in the world is to take this too far. I consider IBGE to be the only reliable source for official Metropolitan Area definitions for Brazil, and I haven't seen CME mentioned by them so far. But, perhaps someone has other information about this? --Pjred 13:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surface area

I believe a rewording is in order for this section of the introduction:

"According to the IBGE, around 19.7 million inhabitants (2006) live in the greater São Paulo metropolitan area (Região Metropolitana de São Paulo) as defined by the government, making it the fifth most populous metropolitan area in the world, but it's the fourth biggest one in area."

List of cities by surface area clearly shows that São Paulo is not 4th, but 39th in surface area. The person who added that tidbit of information was probably looking at the List of metropolitan areas by population, which does show that in surface area, São Paulo is the fourth largest metropolitan area of the top 5 in population. But only of the top five. If you move down the list, you'll find that quite a few more metropolitan areas are larger. Perhaps it should be changed to state that "of the top five metropolitan areas in population, São Paulo is the fourth largest in area." LeviathanMist 01:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

-You are right...this has been removed. It is a statistic based on mismatched information --Mr.GeoFreak

[edit] Citing the sources

Please don't input information for which you can't cite the source. You may find out that it's "common sense" - or put simply, random information collected by the Brazilian media by cutting and pasting, and you may have been brainwashed for believing every word they said.

For the "citation needed" geeks - I don't believe air pollution requires a source citation. I thought this is something you can feel by living in town and having your car completely mudded after a rain shower? In any case, I've found a study case of children with respiratory problems over the course of 10 years. Horrible.

[edit] Montevideo?

What the hell is town twinning and why is Sao Paulo compared to Montevideo, Uruguay when both cities have nothing to do with each other? Hetfield1987 (talk · contribs)

"Town twinning is a concept whereby towns or cities in geographically and politically distinct areas are paired with the goal of fostering human contact and cultural links." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_twinning

How about actually using wikipedia for clearing things out ocne in a while?

I think those comparisons do not improve the article. A.Z. 23:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which city is that?

There are serious problems in the content of this page in what concerns to encyclopedial content. It looks like the text were written by the Tourism Bureau. There´s almost no references to favelas and poor neighborhoods. I am pretty surprised... didn´t know this is the city where I live!Dornicke 01:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree! A.Z. 18:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, all pictures currently on the page depict places as much more beautiful than they actually are, especially Masp, Paulista Avenue and the Ipiranga Museum. A.Z. 23:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
That doesn´t bother me. It is pretty difficult to find a less beautiful image than the Ipiranga Museum - it is a beautiful place, the picture must show that. The same to MASP. But it is necessary to show the other side of the city too. Favelas, for example. And typical locations, instead of touristic points. 201.52.160.128 04:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skyline picture

I would like to ask for not using this image - Skyline from São Paulo city.JPG - as a title for the skyline of São Paulo. This picture doesn't depict a global vision of the city, only some buildings in the 23 de Maio Avenue. The current image, showing the downtown (including Copan and Edifício Itália) depicts more properly the skyline of the city. Fsolda 01:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Guys, please discuss this issue. I see Opinoso has not responded to commentary at his Talk page, so I hope there will be no more reverts tomorrow. Please do not let this deteriorate any further into an all-out revert war. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 02:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
If it takes a third opinion to break this revert war, I prefer Opinoso's picture. Having said that, both images need a review of their copyright status.--Dali-Llama 03:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like this picture not to be called a "skyline"... It's not a skyline, but rather an "aerial view"!!... -- NIC1138 (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Favelas?

There´s no mention at all about favelas in São Paulo... not even in the part of crytical problems... 201.52.160.128 04:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Parade

I've seen that three or four differnet users have identified the inclusion of this section as "vandalism" and have deleted it. I have read the section and it is well written and referenced. Is there a reason -or a previosu discussion you can refer me to- as to why this section needs to be deleted? I just hope that it isn't due to some unacceptable reasons.--the Dúnadan 01:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know which revision you're reading, but as of this revision it's still there.--Dali-Llama 02:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The Gay Parade section has been entirely removed before at least one time, but probably more than that. This diff shows me reverting it. A.Z. 02:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
And here you see it being removed 45 days before I restored it. A.Z. 02:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Yep—I've reverted its removal a couple of times myself. Sort of a recurring theme of vandalism, if you will. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 02:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The Gay Parade/protestant parade one right next to the other doesn't smell very academic to me. Seems like people are using this encyclopedia to pursue their religious/gay rights agendas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abedholm (talk • contribs) 10:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Gay rights supporters/protestants use their parades to persue their agendas. As they managed to make huge events with millions of people, this encyclopedia documents it. A.Z. 17:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paulistas vs Paulistanos

I am almost entirely sure that, contrary to what this article states, the inhabitants of the City of Sao Paulo are commonly called "paulistas" whereas those that live in the state of Sao Paulo are known as "paulistanos." Can anybody confirm or falsify this? Dschumacher 15:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The article is correct. I'll look for sources. A.Z. 17:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
See here and here for dictionary entries. A.Z. 17:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
You need to pay to access those, but there's free Wiktionary: paulistano, paulista. A.Z. 17:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Next time you have questions like these, I highly recommend asking at the Wikipedia language reference desk. A.Z. 18:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification.Dschumacher 21:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Paulistanos = inhabitants of the city of São Paulo Paulistas = state of São Paulo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.12.16.206 (talk) 16:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The paulistanos

"I am almost entirely sure that, contrary to what this article states, the inhabitants of the City of Sao Paulo are commonly called "paulistas" whereas those that live in the state of Sao Paulo are known as "paulistanos." Can anybody confirm or falsify this? "

Yes, I can. The inhabitants of the City of São Paulo are called "paulistanos" and who lives in state are called "paulistas". I'm pretty sure about it, because I was born in the City of São Paulo, and I'm a paulistano (well, and a paulista too). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.78.2.133 (talk) 21:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Metro Population

The Metro population is shown as 500,000,000, which clearly cannot be true. Please someone change the population back to the correct number. BigEyedFish (talk) 02:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crime

Seriously, a city in Brasil with nothing on crime?? Come on people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.47.50 (talk) 05:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


What? Have you been reading the news? São Paulo is ranked 492th in homicides per 100 thousand inhabitants. Actually, I'm adding that information to the page. Perhaps we should expand it and make it a full section. 189.62.57.146 (talk) 21:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Education

The whole section on education in the city is missing, there's no information at all on the universities and other educational institutions. Probably the largest city in the world not to have this rather standard and important chapter included in the article. JdeJ (talk) 11:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Current critical problems - POV?

I read the "Current critical problems" section and it seems SO POV. How do we make it NPOV? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I just read the section and it seems to me it could use more references. It looks like standard criticism of many large cities. If these cities really did grow without significant overall planning, are traffic congested, have polluted air and water, impoverished quarters, etc. it is not POV to state the fact. However, in my opinion, a reference is needed for each such assertion. Gallador (talk) 14:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Section about crime & PCC Attacks

Currently there's only one paragraph regarding the violence in São Paulo. I think it should be expanded into a full section, as this is a very important aspect of the daily life of the city. Most importantly to begin with, there should be information about the May 2006 PCC attacks, and about the decrease in crime rates that's being observed for the past 8+ years (ie "Mapa da Violência" (violence map; all newspapers published January 30 08 have articles on it). These are the fundamental topics any decent article should cover, but there are many others. Budsbd (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, while the recent progress with homicide has been remarkable, an article about the city without even a mention of the worst outbreak of violence in recorded Brazilian history is very wrong. Additionally, a better description of the heavy kidnapping that occurs in the city is needed. SieberNewsAt7 (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italians

The number of Italians (including people of Italian origins) is NOT overestimated. Sao Paulo does have the largest Italian population in the world and the number of Italians or partialy Italians is indeed around 6 to 7 million. Also, there is no mention that Sao Paulo is considered the gastronomic capital of the world. Someone here said this is not a marketing site and therefore such things must not be included. I say that if you think so, then other features on articles about other cities must also be changed, since several city articles explicitly talk about the great points about those cities. Tango —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.181.79 (talk) 12:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Violence

Is it written in English?Opinoso (talk) 17:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, I erased it, because of its poor English and no sources at all. Opinoso (talk) 17:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not enough on problems

I have posted a neutrality warning on the page as there is not enough about Sao Paulo's problems. In comparison to the rest of the article, the section on issues is very small. Posted at 7:58 on Saturday 22nd March

yes, in São Paulo aproximately 60% of the population are from italian descendents —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.6.54.198 (talk) 21:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] education/literature/press

the area of literature is very poor, São Paulo has a very important literature, there are no education area and it don't tell about the press in the city, wich is very important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.6.54.198 (talk) 22:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poverty in Sao Paulo

This article states that 13.3% of the inhabitants of Sao Paulo "lived in poverty". The source provided for this information [7] has been misinterpreted, in my view. The table in the website referred to as the source of the information only shows the distribution of family income among residents of Sao Paulo in minimum wages. 13.3% is the proportion of families who live with an income of less than 2 minimum wages. One minimum wage in Sao Paulo is currently R$415.00 per month [8], or around US$252.00 in today´s rate. Considering the average size of a Brazilian family at 3.3 people [9], we see that those 13.3% of "paulistanos" are actually living in extreme poverty. I think a more accurate figure for "paulistanos" living in poverty would include those families living on up to 5 minimum wages, which would total 37.69% of the population. This is no doubt a much more reallistic figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Athaydesbr (talk • contribs) 07:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Public transport

The public transport section states that São Paulo's underground train system is modern, safe, clean and efficient, considered one of the best subway systems in the world.

I would like to suggest this text be replaced with a more unbiased, realistic text like Sao Paulo is served by a metro rail network that is comprehensive and expansive by Brazilian standards, though somewhat undeveloped in comparison to comparable cities elsewhere in the world[10].

It is not acceptable for Wikipedia to paint such a fake picture of the city of Sao Paulo, which is known for rampant crime, widespread poverty, traffic jams and a overcrowded public transport, if anything really. To say that Sao Paulo's subway system is among the best in the world is an insult to other big cities in the world which, unlike Sao Paulo, have been investing heavily in public tranport for decades. Sao Paulo is one of the 5 biggest cities in the world, although its Metro doesn't even rank in the top 20 [[11]]!

No word is mentioned about the 130km of traffic congestion faced by motorists every day in the city, or the precarious state of the comprehensive, but insufficient and overcrowded bus network. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Athaydesbr (talk • contribs) 08:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)