Talk:São Paulo/Archive Move debate

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Move

Cantus…☎ 09:11, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Would it be better to move São Paulo to São Paulo (state), as you've suggested elsewhere, then move São Paulo, São Paulo to São Paulo (city)? São Paulo can then either be the disambiguation page, or redirect to São Paulo (city). The naming seems a bit clearer that way. KeithD (talk) 11:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I would support either of these alternatives, both of which seem sensible; "Sao Paolo" should be either the city or a disambiguation page. Enchanter 11:28, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

• Support the following:
  • São Paulo = the city
  • São Paulo (state) = the state
    • I seem to remember that there was a similar situation surrounding Rio de Janeiro, which was eventually resolved by moving the city article to Rio de Janeiro and the state article to Rio de Janeiro (state). — Dale Arnett 21:25, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support the following:
  • São Paulo = the city
  • São Paulo (state) = the state
    • I support this for consistency with Rio de Janeiro (city and state). "Sao Paolo" should be a redirect, as the name is completely wrong. Carioca 23:03, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support the following:
  • São Paulo = the city
  • São Paulo (state) = the state

PMLF 04:38, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

• Support I support this proposal and concur with other users. Moreover, as this is an English article/encyclopedia, consideration should be given to thereafter renaming all appropriate items Sao Paulo (no accent) unless there is some legal or other precedent or it is part of an untranslated name; e.g., even the article for Montreal in Canada (officially and bilingually Montréal) is generalised this way. E Pluribus Anthony 05:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Canada, one might point out, is an English-speaking country, despite its wayward province. São Paulo is spelled São Paulo in the geographical entries section of Webster's and all other standard references. Chick Bowen 12:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Canada is actually officially bilingual: English and French. While 'wayward' Quebec is largely francophone (and your comment is mildly denigrating), both languages have equal status at the federal level.

All references? I don't deny yours, but please cite 'em. Oh, I can too: head on over to the entry for Brazil in the World CIA Factbook for unacccented examples. More to point: Zurich, Switzerland as well is not English-speaking: Oxford indicates usual English and Webster's indicates versions with and without the umlaut. Whether this is because English and German are common Germanic languages I'm unsure, but I doubt it. E Pluribus Anthony 18:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

"Wayward" of course was a joke, and I'm sorry if my comment was flip. I had assumed you weren't particularly serious. Yes, some outlets continue to use the spelling without the diacritic, though outlets of record, including the New York Times, increasingly use the spelling "São Paulo." Particularly in an educational context (and Wikipedia is intended, more or less, for education) I think a spelling that is more accurate and more culturally sensitive should be preferred. I would point out the CIA is behind the rest of the government here: the US consulate at São Paulo spells it with the diacritic,[1] unlike the US consulate in Zurich (it doesn't have a webpage, but trust me, it doesn't). The balance between expectations and accuracy is a tricky one, but we owe it to the world to lean toward accuracy whenever possible. Chick Bowen 19:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey there; thanks for your reply; understood! I'm not wholly serious, but I could have been and your comment could've been construed as being derogatory: "backward" would have been truly contentious. :) I also concur with your summary of the prevalence of one term over the other and do not dispute your citations. I merely suggest that, while we have a duty to truth, we also have a duty to verifiability and the unaccented version is still common in English. Besides: George Orwell advocated for simplicity in writing; shouldn't we in our attempts to educate? :) Thanks again! E Pluribus Anthony 01:01, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh sure, I have no problem with the explanation currently at the end of the first paragraph. Thanks for the clarification. Chick Bowen 03:50, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Great! Given all this, I still believe though that consideration should be given to renaming the article (ultimately) to Sao Paulo for the simple reason that a user/visitor (if searching) will likely type the usual a instead of (perhaps not knowing how to generate) the Portuguese letter ã easily. São Paulo can still redirect to Sao Paulo. E Pluribus Anthony 14:05, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

It is better to simply redirect Sao Paulo to São Paulo, as São Paulo is the correct city name. According to Encarta enclyclopedia, the city is named São Paulo. Encyclopædia Britannica also uses the name São Paulo. Carioca 23:00, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I hear ya, don't dispute that, and I'm generally OK with that. My desire for a switcheroo more stems from the fact that English visitors may not tend (or novices know how) to type the Portuguese letter, not so much that it is used more frequently. Merci! E Pluribus Anthony 00:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no problem with the accent during searches, I am sure. Google, for instance, just ignores them and Wikipedia also does it. Therefore, if search is your problem, the accent can be mantained. Fernando 15:37 NL, Dec 31 2005

Result

Consensus for page move: page moved. Eugene van der Pijll 21:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Now that's been done, someone should really take a look at "what links here", on both this article and the state one, fix the double and triple redirects at least. It's a bit of a mess. –Hajor 14:30, 29 October 2005 (UTC)