Talk:Rwandan Genocide

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[edit] Failed GA Nomination, 28 February 2007

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail: [[Image:|15px]]

I am mostly failing this GA nomination because of its extensive lack of citations for entire sections at a time. I also found the prose, particularly in the first section, quite confusing. It needs major cleanup, copyediting and verification, particularly within the 'Background' section. Veesicle (Talk) (Contribs) 15:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

  • It also seems to have aspects of POV littered throughout the text. Fails almost all aspects of GA criteria. Veesicle (Talk) (Contribs) 15:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely agreed. I informed nominator yestreday that the article doesn't have slightest chance of passing. Thank you for your time anyway. The article contains POV, incorrect and misleading information and of course lacks citations. I'm improving it when I have some spare time, it will take me months.--Pethr 20:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


elloh ym mena si obb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.9.210.35 (talk) 14:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

The following text appeared in the References section; apparently the following user had added the editorial interpolation there; but the signature appeared in the text of the article: I removed it here --Smmurphy(Talk) 15:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)". --NYScholar 10:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture?

In Wikipedia, I am accustomed to having a picture of the topic of the article next to the intro. Maybe we should copy and paste a physical map of Rwanda?? I think it would enhance the article if there were a few more pics. Be creative with this one! --Gabycs 02:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I've gone through and added images from commons:Category:Rwandan Genocide. Many of these were on the article previously but were replaced by someone who was uploading copyvio images. When those images were removed, the article ended up being quite bare. - BanyanTree 21:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glossary and supplements for the Rwandan Genocide

I have redirected Glossary and supplements for the Rwandan Genocide to this page. It did not appear to contain any information that was not already here and a separate page to explain what we are explaining seems unnecessary. - BanyanTree 09:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

== responsibility for the assassination the responsibility shold be held with the French governmet for inciting the war in the first place

The current paragraph on the plane crash states:

On the evening of 6 April 1994, the airplane carrying the Rwandan President Juvénal Habyarimana, and Cyprien Ntaryamira, the Hutu president of Burundi, was shot down as it prepared to land in Kigali. Both presidents died when the plane crashed. Responsibility for the attack is heavily disputed, with both the RPF and Hutu extremists being blamed. In 2005, an RPF defector named Lieutenant Abdul Ruzibiza published a book, Rwanda. L’histoire secrete, in which he claimed to have been part of the network which shot down the plane with Ugandan SA-16 missiles.[10]

I've just finished breaking out and rewriting Assassination of Habyarimana and Ntaryamira and Ruzibiza is being given far too much weight here. Responsibility remains a topic of fierce dispute and pointing out one (disputed) source is disproportionate. I propose removing the last sentence and letting readers go through the article on the assassination for the full saga of claims and counterclaims. I will do so unless someone has a counterargument. - BanyanTree 13:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

While I'm on the topic, if anyone could source the final paragraphs that I moved over from this page, it would be much appreciated. Thanks, BanyanTree 20:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

did you read ruzibiza's book? weight to his accusations have been given weight by the french tribunals as well. are you discounting both? that is hardly a neutral editorial position. removing the reference is objectionable (I have no tildes on my laptop.)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbabane (talk • contribs)

I have not read the book, but I have read the BBC article on Jean-Louis Bruguière's most report. There are, to put it mildly, some problems. First, if you have not already done so, please read Assassination of Habyarimana and Ntaryamira, which I feel gives a good overview of the theories. If you don't agree on the details given there, we will obviously never agree on the summary of those details here. Second, the most official/credible RPF-responsibility allegations are the two by Bruguiere, of which Ruzibiza is a part.
As I said in my first post, I prefer that this page simply state that there was an assassination and that responsibility has not been definitely determined. Readers can then go on to Assassination of Habyarimana and Ntaryamira. If you can't live without mention of the Ruzibiza in that paragraph, I will add Linda Melvern's critique of the French report to balance it out. I think this option is less desirable as this structure will cause people to add more theories and allegations here rather than on the assassination page, requiring constant trimming. But I can live with either; which do you prefer?
Also, you don't need tildes on your computer; below the edit summary field in the editing window, there is a "Sign your username" toggle that will enter the tildes. BanyanTree 00:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
As there has been no response here, I have gone ahead and removed the sentence on Ruzibiza. - BanyanTree 05:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belgium Should Apologize

Belgium should apologize for all of its acts that help the initiation of the Rwandan Genocide. Also, there should be a memorial for all those that died. Thelorien 18:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

  • What did Belgium have to do with it? Are you referring to the phrase in the "Rwanda: How the genocide happened" BBC reference:
"The two ethnic groups are actually very similar - they speak the same language, inhabit the same areas and follow the same traditions. But when the Belgian colonists arrived in 1916, they saw the two groups as distinct entities, and even produced identity cards classifying people according to their ethnicity. The Belgians considered the Tutsis as superior to the Hutus. Not surprisingly, the Tutsis welcomed this idea, and for the next 20 years they enjoyed better jobs and educational opportunities than their neighbours."
That would make all who ever discriminated by giving one group of people the better jobs responsible for genocide. In Belgium itself, in 1916 the speakers of French were given all the better jobs, the Dutch-speaking Flemish had no chance in becoming an officer in the Belgian Army which in that year was still fighting the First World War mainly in its own country. That discrimination and orders being barked solely in French caused an unbalanced number of casualties amongst the Flemish. So far, neither that deadly fact nor the long existing and for several more decades continued job discrimination resulted in the 59% majority population of Belgium retaliating by eliminating their compatriots. The numerous disagreements between both communities have caused 1 (one) deadly victim when several decades ago, a lone French-speaker fired a gun from the window of his house and hit a Flemish demonstrator on the street in the language-disputed Fouron/Voer area. For the past discrimination or its consequences, neither 'Belgium' nor its French-speaking community ever apologized, and the latter is still not exactly extremely sensitively monitoring current assumed discriminations either. I'm not as yet selecting my machete.
Anyway, that source's claim clearly sugggests that Belgians invented distinctions between Tutsis and Hutus in the 20th century, which contradicts the Rwandan Genocide article: "Before the 19th century, it was believed that the Tutsis held military power while the Hutus possessed supernatural power." Hence the rivalry was not at all instigated by the Belgians, they simply applied their colonial policy according to a traditional rivalry and series of cultural distinctions between groups of people, just as any colonizer did in any region of the world as far as it suited its purposes, including in Rwanda: "Because the Germans did not intend to colonize Rwanda themselves, they sought to rule indirectly by appointing an elite class of indigenous inhabitants which could act as functionaries. Drawing on John Hanning Speke's Hamitic Theory of Races, and recognizing that the Tutsi held political power in Rwandan society, they chose the Tutsi to rule." — That was just before from neighbouring Congo, the Belgians, at war with Germany, arrived in Ruanda-Urundi (the later Rwanda and Burundi); and Speke was neither German nor Belgian.
  • What I can read in this article about the Belgians, is not verifiably confirmed by the given sources:
"Most authors describe the violent ethnic rivalry as the result of the cynical and conflicting manipulations of Belgian colonialists which left behind competing extremists of an established Tutsi autocracy and a cabal of ultranationalist Hutus that gained power towards the end of the 20th century.[2][4]"
The source [2] is a book of which the ISBN leads to a few short quotes that do not mention Belgium; and it is certainly not "most authors", with the current references this "most authors" is clear WP:WEASELRY, and most likely WP:POV; in particular with a source [4] that does not even mention Belgium or Belgians. Furthermore, a recent version of the article had, with "Belgian colonists", mentioned "and Pan-Africanists from neighbouring countries", see this edit, and suddenly left the terrible Belgians to be blamed.
"Following World War I, Rwanda became a protectorate of Belgium, whose colonial policy over the territory followed the German example and is considered especially influential in priming the genocide."
There is no source referenced at all, let alone one that puts Belgium in any way influential in priming the genocide. It appears a gratuitious WP:POV. As far as I know, during the crisis that escalated to a genocide, the Belgians had been involved as UN-Force and left the country after the loss of 11 Belgian paratrooper lifes had demonstrated Belgian UN troops no longer to be in a position to further fulfill their task; accusations have been limited to whether one should have foreseen (Marchal) and might have done more, all with hindsight, and have been investigated. Whatever can be said about Belgium's responsibilities or those of its royal house regarding the colonization of the Congo and the Belgian presence in African colonies, their involvement in Lumumba's assassination, and the disorganized state in which the colonies where abandoned aka given independence in the early 1960s, a genocide is not on the list. Further reading sample on delicate matters, about Belgium ("Belgian Minister backs illegal anti-Rwanda demo"), but also for a further passage:
“Genocidal violence did not just break out as a result of fear or hatred of the Tutsi minority,” said Alison Des Forges, senior adviser to the Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “It was launched by military, administrative, and political authorities using the machinery of the state.” The paper relates how officials and propagandists defined Tutsi civilians as the “enemy” to be targeted by “self-defense” efforts. It also summarizes the context of the genocide, which began in early April 1994, including poverty, land scarcity, colonial rule, the introduction of multi-party politics and the war. “Documenting the genocide is also a way of honoring its victims,” said Des Forges. “The more we understand the preparation and implementation of a genocide, the more we will be able to avert similar horrors in the future.”
Please note: I have no intention to pay further attention to this article, as I do not have a better than average knowledge about the subject; I was merely attending to a demand by Thelorien to pay more attention to this topic in the main Belgium article, on its talk page, for which I cannot find compelling or even convincing reasons here.
— SomeHuman 24 Jun 2007 19:46 (UTC)
If you want a good reference for how Belgian racial ideology contributed to the genocide, Jean-Pierre Chrétien's The Great Lakes of Africa, probably the best history of the region, contains much detail. - SimonP 21:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I also recommend Mahmood Mamdani's When Victims Become Killers: Colonialism, Nativism, and Genocide in Rwanda, for his argument that Belgium racialized an ethnic division. I would also like to say that I've read the above and am still unsure what POV is being challenged. Is it that the article doesn't say that Belgium should apologize, or is it that the info is not referenced, in which case the tag is mis-chosen? - BanyanTree 22:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
To SimonP: I'm sorry but I don't have a copy at hand, and this description does not appear to blame Belgium (it only mentions Belgium once). Google cannot find a single page with the phrase "Belgian racial ideology" or "racial ideology in Belgium", and as a Belgian, I never knew we are supposed to ever have had a such ideology. Is it possible that you refer to racial concepts that originated outside Belgium and that used to be followed by a number of both scolars and political ideologists in a large number of countries until another genocide had made such views outdated? In particular, the above-mentioned BBC source states "for the next 20 years", which would be until 1936, when Nazi ideologies had become more apparent to the rest of Western Europe... while Ruanda-Urundi remained a Belgian colony till 1962–63. Did in fact, Belgium apply any questionable ideology more intensively or longer than most colonializing (and other) countries? Does the fact of having had a genocide in Rwanda in the 1990s make Belgian actions much earlier in that century deserving more guilt or responsibility than any other country that used to operate around the same lines? Is it not mainly because Belgium used to have a big chunk of Middle-Africa that many works were written about Belgium and its colonies, when considering African history (combined with having little knowledge about Black African history from before the second half of the 19th century)?
There's no doubt about ethnical or tribal concepts having played an important role in the Rwandan genocide, but was there no ethnical or tribal rivalry long before the Belgians arrived, and did the situation grew seriously out of hand mainly during the Belgian presence? I would think that the division of Ruanda-Urundi along Hutu/Tutsi lines into two different independent states, Rwanda and Urundi, would not have been in Belgium's interest. How much can one hold any nation responsible for neither having had more controlling power nor a crystal ball to see more than three decades into the future? History can show seeds of something to grow into important historical events, or one can find seeds in old records that never showed their existence again. It is much like the chaos theory about a butterfly in China causing a storm at the opposite side of the world: possible but dependable on too many factors and thus utterly unpredictable, though unlike chaos theoreticists, historians have great hindsight. If one wishes to avoid genocides, one should not look for seeds because those are present everywhere and in all cultures, one should rather inspect the mechanisms of deliberately exploiting cultural differences for political or ideological purposes, such just might help to occasionally prevent one. In other words, I would not see the Christians as having an immense responsibility because of ever having blamed the Jews to have preferred Barrabas' life above the Christian idol; one should rather look at the Christians' and Christian Churches' actions or lack of such much closer to the Holocaust to judge Christian responsibilities. — SomeHuman 24 Jun 2007 23:23–23:31 (UTC)
To Banyan: The neutrality of the section, not the entire article, is questioned for its apparent attempt to put nearly all the blame at Belgium; such is factually probably highly incorrect and definitely the currently mentioned sources do not allow such presentation. — SomeHuman 24 Jun 2007 23:23 (UTC)
PS: You mention When Victims Become Killers: Colonialism, Nativism, and Genocide in Rwanda; the only work in the 'Selected articles' section of the Rwandan Genocide article is by the same author: The Politics of Naming: Genocide, Civil War, Insurgency which does not even mention Belgium or a colonizer of Rwanda, though from which I noticed these two quotes:
"Most writing on the Rwandan genocide in the US was also done by journalists. In We wish to inform you that tomorrow we will be killed with our families, the most widely read book on the genocide, Philip Gourevitch envisaged Rwanda as a replay of the Holocaust, with Hutu cast as perpetrators and Tutsi as victims. Again, the encounter between the two seemed to take place outside any context, as part of an eternal encounter between evil and innocence."
which refers to the book referenced in the first questionable sentence as [2], as (if) a source blaming Belgium; and also:
"With very few exceptions, the Save Darfur campaign has drawn a single lesson from Rwanda: the problem was the US failure to intervene to stop the genocide. Rwanda is the guilt that America must expiate, and to do so it must be ready to intervene, for good and against evil, even globally. That lesson is inscribed at the heart of Samantha Power’s book, A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide. But it is the wrong lesson. The Rwandan genocide was born of a civil war which intensified when the settlement to contain it broke down. The settlement, reached at the Arusha Conference, broke down because neither the Hutu Power tendency nor the Tutsi-dominated Rwanda Patriotic Front (RPF) had any interest in observing the power-sharing arrangement at the core of the settlement: the former because it was excluded from the settlement and the latter because it was unwilling to share power in any meaningful way.
What the humanitarian intervention lobby fails to see is that the US did intervene in Rwanda, through a proxy. That proxy was the RPF, backed up by entire units from the Uganda Army. The green light was given to the RPF, whose commanding officer, Paul Kagame, had recently returned from training in the US, just as it was lately given to the Ethiopian army in Somalia. Instead of using its resources and influence to bring about a political solution to the civil war, and then strengthen it, the US signalled to one of the parties that it could pursue victory with impunity. This unilateralism was part of what led to the disaster, and that is the real lesson of Rwanda."
which does not appear to leave much room for putting responsibilities with Belgium.
— SomeHuman 25 Jun 2007 01:25 (UTC)
I have Mamdani's book somewhere in storage and will add a ref once I dig it up, unless someone else beats me to it. I should also point out nobody on this page actually responded, positively or otherwise, to Thelorien initial post, as it had nothing to do with the editing of the article. I am somewhat concerned that you are operating on the assumption that I am somehow arguing Thelorien's point. I am not. However, I've read more than my fair share of books on the genocide and there is zero disagreement that the period of Belgium colonization was pivotal in the creation of the modern Hutu and Tutsi identities. The section you have tagged as NPOV consists of three subsections, one of which is on the colonial period. This subsection consists of two paragraphs, only one of which is about Belgium. This hardly seems like overemphasizing the role of Belgium. In fact, I would say that it underemphasizes it. But, like I said, I'll add a ref at some point. Cheers, BanyanTree 02:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean by 'the period of Belgian colonization' only 1916 when the Belgians attacked the former German colonizers, or as I assume a period of about 46 years; if the latter, than such long term can hardly be called 'pivotal' because any such prolongued period is bound to know an evolution (for better or for worse) towards the modern identities, regardless who is in charge. Such does not necessarily show a responsibility by Belgium. And it would not be the 'creation' of those identities. The two sentences I assume to be unjustly derogatory for Belgium are in my first comment under "What I can read in this article about the Belgians, is not verifiably confirmed by the given sources", in short:
1) "Most authors describe the violent ethnic rivalry as the result of the cynical and conflicting manipulations of Belgian colonialists" — 'Most authors': (WP:WEASEL words): which ones, and of how many authors that wrote about the subject? is it really 'most'??? 'the violent ethnic rivalry as the result': again: which author(s) mention(s) like this sentence only Belgian colonist actions to have caused the rivalry to become violent? and all these many authors call them 'cynical' as well? and that many authors use the most derogatory term 'manipulate'? — The phrasing appears highly POV and totally unbalanced.
2) "Belgium, whose colonial policy over the territory (...) is considered especially influential in priming the genocide" — More 'especially' than other influences? considered by whom? (as it stands, it is once more the use of WP:WEASEL words); and can there be any doubt about a derogatory POV and incorrect use of the term 'to prime' that always has the meaning with purpose-aimed intention: To prepare; to make ready; to instruct beforehand; to post; to coach? And all that without a single reference.
For these phrasings to be assumed NPOV, each of the above questions requires a proper answer from an undisputed source. Merely adding 'a ref at some point' will not do. — SomeHuman 25 Jun 2007 03:59 (UTC)
I've rewording the phrasing relating to your points above to specify the measures taken. As no source that I take seriously seriously disputes the key role of the Belgian administration in racializing the ethnic distinction and subsequently concretizing it into economic and social institutions, as even a cursory glance at the given refs would inform you. The tag has been removed. - BanyanTree 03:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity and Rwanda

I find it difficult to explain the Genocide without addressing the idea of the distinct nature of ethnicity of the Kinyarwanda. For example, Hutu, Tutsi, Twa, they are not distinct tribes, they are communities within the tribe, known as Kinyarwanda. They are not clans... there are 12? 20? distinct clans among the Kinyarwanda, and each includes some Tutsi and some Hutu and some Twa. The Kinyarwanda are also noteworthy as being perhaps the most enormous tribe in equatorial sub-Saharan Africa. And perhaps most importantly, the pre-colonial fluidity of Hutu-Tutsi identification: Hutu means servant, and Tutsi means cattle owner. If you lost all your cattle, you became a Hutu. If you acquired cattle, you because a Tutsi. The communities did not gel until the Belgians came in with the identification cards and whatnot.

Papalopolis 19:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)Papalopolis

[edit] Rwandan Genocide as 21th Century genocide.

Now I'm just shooting my mouth off, but I find certain inconsistencies popping up when I hear an account of the Rwandan genocide. First of all is the whole competing ethnicities idea; I've already addressed how it is problematic to describe the Hutu and Tutsi as competing ethnicities. Second of all is the idea that the genocide was state sponsored, rational, organized, that it was directed against Tutsis and moderates. Then they say "That's how genocide goes in the 20th century: you hit the *others* then you hit the *moderates*." Remember that an enormous swath of Rwanda was Tutsi free, ie: the South, and yet there was still murder on a massive scale. It was not moderates that were being killed, but anyone who could reasonably be a target: people with more than average amounts of property, people who you and your neighbours didn't like. My source is Diamond's "Collapse," which I no onger own as I have loaned it out. Also it wasn't terribly well organized from the top-down. It was quite unlike the Holocaust or the Armenian genocide. Anarchy+population pressure+fear*racial purity=Rwandan genocide, whereas the Nazis and Young Turks were all about purity and fear, but operated in a totalitarian state that was not under Mathusian collapse. The Rwandan geoncide was not the last genocide of the 20th century but the first genocide of the 21st century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papalopolis (talk • contribs)

You are mistaken. The south was the old center of the Tutsi-led Kingdom of Rwanda and Butare Province is well known both for the resistance of its population to the genocide and for the massive bloodbath that ensued once the government directed militias in from other parts of the country. Diamond's book has already been discussed, and Diamond's source concentrated on one commune in the northwest, not the south. You are correct is noting that discussing your own analysis of the events, especially given its tenuous foundation in reality, is off-topic. - BanyanTree 00:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I realize of course that I'm responding to a comment written quite a few months ago; however, I really do have to take issue with the statement by Papalopolis that "[...] anyone [...] could reasonably be a target: people with more than average amounts of property, people who you and your neighbours didn't like." You're essentially claiming that no genocide took place, but simply chaotic, disorganized killing on an enormous scale -- a claim that's utterly false. If you look up any credible source (both academic and eye-witness) you'll find mountains of evidence indicating that the specific targeting of Tutsis, and anyone willing to stand up for them, was painstakingly planned down to the last detail beforehand. One million people cannot be butchered in 100 days, and almost entirely with close-combat type weapons like machetes, without a significant level of forethought. --Todeswalzer|Talk 00:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rwanda on Security Council 94/95

I was just wondering if there was a direct link between the inaction of the UN and the fact that Rwanda had a seat on the security council in 1994 (as well as 95) ? My apologies if this has already been covered . Boomshanka 02:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It hasn't been covered, as far as I'm aware, but it seems to be pretty much of a non-issue as far as some books I've read are concerned. Dallaire, in Shake Hands with the Devil, seems to spend more time than most on it, about a paragraph, in which he implies that the Rwandan ambassador, "not only privy to the inner workings of the mission [UNAMIR] but to the Security Council's attitude toward the mission and its many woes" (p. 195), was feeding information to Hutu extremists. This may have led to the instigation of the genocide, though Dallaire doesn't prove his points, but sources are unanimous that the U.S., and to a lesser extent the U.K., who actually had a very clear idea of what was going on, blocked any action out of fear that they would be forced to get involved and foot the bill. (Note that this was just after the Somalia debacle.) The French, who were still trying to protect their client Hutu regime, were also not entirely helpful, though they became eager to intervene after it became clear the the RPF would take over unless the government was propped up by an external force. - BanyanTree 13:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] The U.S. Govenment's Lack of involvement in...

Firstly, apologies if anything appears off; it's my first wiki edit. I've fixed some obvious hyperbole - "saving billions of lives in Bosnia" - regardless of how many deaths one might extrapolate from Balkan conflicts, a sixth of the world are not Bosnian. I've also sorted tautology, and spelling errors at the start of this section.

I do believe that the section deserves to remain; especially the second part (citing Stanton, onwards), though I have some misgivings about the remarks

"The interests of the U.S for the most part, simply did not involve this region. They justified this inaction by neglecting that the atrocities occurring in Rwanda were acts of genocide. It was a method of denying the truth to remain inactive and apathetic towards an elevating calamity".

This is a largely tautological assertion (the first two sentences do little but repeat previously stated citations) with a questionable conclusion: whilst one cannot question that there was U.S. inaction, any attempt at rationalising their decision is conjecture. I therefore propose either that the quoted text be deleted altogether; else replaced with: "The U.S. thus denied the truth that events in Rwanda - where they had little to gain from sending forces - constituted genocide, and remained inactive and apathetic towards an elevating calamity"

It seems niggly, but the 'and' is crucial. Otherwise one is inventing a rationale for the U.S. Government's inaction, which constitutes a point of view (unless someone can cite an insider on this), and rather weakens the article.

In my edit I have replaced the text, which seemed to be both in keeping with the initial article, and a resolution to the N.P.O.V. issue. I hope I haven't overstepped the mark in doing so, but the text's there for re-insertion, if others will it.

I've also left a request for citation for the assertion that "The U.S. did not only fail to approach other solutions but they also seemed to act against these approaches" - how they seemed to act must be backed up by evidenced, cited examples, else the sentence ought to be deleted or changed to "Despite avoiding intervention, the U.S. failed to approach other solutions."

I'm not experienced enough in Wikipedia circles to say if considerations of Governmental U.S. attitudes to armed intervention by regional interest are relevant to an article on Rwandan genocide. It seems to me that, given current and contemporary politics, they are, and hopefully some others can help make this section a bit stronger with citation.

Oh, wait a sec, that was just a minor edit... Ah well, I've got to start somewhere. Ta. Shoogledoogle (talk) 06:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that this section is just extremly biased. Granted that you can't deny that the U.S. was inactive but it is not only attempting to give their rationale but using numerous amounts of conjecture. Perhaps a seasoned editor could help out in this paticular section? 68.102.64.83 (talk) 08:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The USA were not only inactive, but:
  1. Contrary to later public statements, the US lobbied the UN for a total withdrawal of UN forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
  2. Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term “genocide” until May 21, and even then, US officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
  3. Bureaucratic infighting slowed the US response to the genocide;
  4. The US refused to “jam” extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing because of costs and concern with international law;
  5. US officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/press.html 80.142.114.182 (talk) 18:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gourevitch sourcing

The current footnote to We Wish To Inform You... is to the entire book, which makes it practically useless to check facts. If someone who actually has page numbers is around, I encourage you to start changing the refs to include them. If not, at some point I will either re-source or remove passages sourced in this manner. - BanyanTree 07:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

After what appears to be an ample amount of time, I have gone through and removed this footnote, and associated text, rather than trying to find alternative sources that support the exact same wording. - BanyanTree 09:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed: "The only foreign entity to directly intervene was the French government, which sent troops not to stop the genocide, but rather to protect the genocidal Rwandan armed forces from the invading rebel force that ultimately ended the bloodshed.<ref name = "Gourevitch, 1999"/>". It isn't properly sourced (at least not anymore) and even if there was a source it would me more of a POV than generally established concensus. This POV may be included in the article if properly sourced but elaboration based on HRW report and other sources would be much better (and most likely closer to reality as well).--Pethr 18:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Pethr, this is pretty much what happened, so I really don't see what's so POV about it. (You might be able to argue that statements that go to motive are necessarily POV, but the end effect is in fact the same, rendering discussions of true motives fairly moot.) In reality many of the most prominent genocidaires were able to escape only through the zone turquoise; and the quote itself sounds like something out of Gourevitch. I'll see if I can find a copy of this and add a reference. --Todeswalzer|Talk 01:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism && POV issues

Cleared some of the most visible crap on this article, and reformed some sentences to reNPOVize the first paragraphs. 168.83.68.163 13:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Since you didn't revert to get rid of the vandalism (diff), I couldn't figure out what was simply lost wording and links that you didn't realize was there before and what was conscious rewriting. I've thus made a full reversion. Please come back if you have a problem with the wording of the restored version. Thanks, BanyanTree 22:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wanted poster

Has the poster been changed much since it's been issued? Has the persons on the poster been captured yet?

Don't you think this poster is now outdated????

88.105.9.161 (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disturbing Images

I don't know if this matters to others, but I personally find all the images of skulls disturbing. It chills me a little bit. Can we change the images to other pictures but without the blood and violence?

Fusion7 (talk) 02:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

There was a similar remark made a few months ago. The point was raised that any article discussing genocide will necessarily be "disturbing", and will necessarily involve "blood and violence". Now, of course, that doesn't mean that we have to include disturbing images; however, photos of sculls lined up on shelves has (for some reason) become a dominant symbol of the genocide in Rwanda, and so I think we need to keep them in the article. --Todeswalzer|Talk 03:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
But it creeps out us spoiled, upper class, insensitive brats :'( (Just kidding... Okay, HALF kidding.) Anyway, I understand why you have this image. It is to show us the true horrors of the situation, not some PG rated kiddie version. It just is a little bit of a.... lunch loser, like all those stupid horror films. However, could you PLEASE find something else? 8 year olds go on this website. Fusion7 (talk) 19:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you'd be satisfied if we just deleted the whole article? --Todeswalzer|Talk 00:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
No. Lets put it this way: If you were going to give a presentation about the genocide to 5th graders, what images would you use? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fusion7 (talk • contribs) 00:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Colourful drawings of skulls instead? No, because Wikipedia is not censored for minors. --Ezeu (talk) 16:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I also don't understand why Fusion7 has the idea that Wikipedia's target audience is "5th graders". --Todeswalzer|Talk 00:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Troll warning

Watch for trolling on this article. The GNAA, a trolling group added, "The GNAA was unavailable for comment." under the first paragraph under the "Genocide" heading. It read, "Hundreds of roadblocks were set up by the militia around the country. Lieutenant-General Dallaire and UNAMIR, escorting Tutsis in Kigali, were unable to do anything as Hutus kept escalating the violence and even started targeting, via RTLM, UNAMIR personnel and Lieutenant-General Dallaire himself. The GNAA was unavailable for comment."

I erased it for now, but they may be back in the future to make further damage to the article. The GNAA is the troll group "Gay Nigger Association of America" originating from slashdot. Even if the GNAA was a real group having something to do with Rwanda, then the sentence still needs to be stricken out because it has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the content of the paragraph.

Further, assuming the GNAA is/was a real group in Rwanda, "GNAA" should not be used before explaining what "GNAA" stands for.

[edit] Editing Problem

There is a problem with the first sentence of the first paragraph under 'Background'. The example is: "{{main|History of |expansionist]] state." I will not make any changes, as I have no idea what is meant. It is probably a mistake, but someone in the know should correct it, especially as the Rwanden Genocide is making recent headlines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.151.116 (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. I've gone through the article's history and it appears a previous editor inadvertently removed some material while making other edits. I've accordingly restored the opening two paragraphs of the "Background" section (from a March 8 edit) to fix the problem you've pointed out. --Todeswalzer|Talk 22:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


The genocide in Rwanda was a horible genocide, because it is mostly about how the Hutu's were targeting the Tutsi's because the Tutsi's had killed the Hutu president. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.166.0.63 (talk) 17:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)