Template talk:Russian Imperial Family

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[edit] Order

I reordered the template to show the highest ranking (claimed) titles at top (as well as the pretender most recognized which is outside of my opinion) but DWC LR is trying to exercising ownership by reverting the changes twice because they are, in his opinion, "unnecessary". If you put it that way, a lot of the things we do are "unnecessary". Charles 18:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Compare Template:Italian Royal Family, which has the most recognized pretender obviously at the top, he also being the closest relation to the last pretender. The last pretender more recognized than Maria is her father and she is his closest relation. Charles 18:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Please demonstrate that the pretender is most recognised outside of your opinion. - dwc lr (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Maria Vladimirovna has the support of the Russian Orthodox church, it is Maria Vladimirovna who firstly is invited to events[1](Russian Embassy), who met with the Russian president, who meets with Russian officials[2][3] and so on. Maria Vladimirovna maintains extensive news archives which document all of this. Charles 19:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

What about official recognition. Dimitri Romanovich was given responsibility to make arrangements for the remains of Maria Feodorovna[4] to be returned to Russia. Danish Ministry of Foreign affairs article acknowledgement of Prince Nicholas [5]. There is recognition and support for both sides. Someone has to be listed first same if there was a Two Sicilies template the Italian one was created before there was a dispute I don't see why it's that important to you change the order there is no guidelines on who should be listed where or in what order they should be. Both rival claims are presented that is all that matters. - dwc lr (talk) 22:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

That's one opinion, a Danish one. However, people aren't vying to being Tsar of Denmark, are they? The reception in Russia matters more than anything else and aside from that there is more individual support for Maria than for Nicholas. It obviously matters though if you are reverting the template. The person with the most or greatest support is the preeminent pretender. Charles 22:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It's difficult to establish individual support and who the preeminent claimant both have supporters and recognition. I imagine it would be very difficult to try and promote or present one claimant as preeminent over the other in the articles this isn't like a Portugal (Podimani) or Romania (Lambrino) where there are clearly accepted claimants. I'm not interested in trying to promote one claim over the other so if I edited the Italian RF template and put the duke of Aosta and family at the top, or the template on the Brazilian IF and the put the Petrópolis Branch ahead of the Vassouras then I would expect to be reverted because as long as all claimants and branches are presented that's what matters. People can read about the dispute in the articles themselves the template's (Italian, Brazilian, this one) just lists the relevant people. - dwc lr (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

DWC LR has NO support for his edits other than his own personal preference. MV states that she is the head of the Imperial Family while the others contest there are no dynasts. I will not comment on either argument other than to say WHY are the people who say they are dynasts and who use higher titles and styles relegated to the bottom? DWC LR, you have some answering to do for this and also for your uncivil edit summary. I suggest you cut it out and offer constructive commentary next time rather than trying to discredit other editors. Charles 20:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Why since the death of Vladimir Cyrillovich has Nicholas Romanov claimed to be his lawful successor and why does he say Grand Dukes havde to marry brides of equal rank while Princes of Russia don't and still retain their rights. Really if I tried to promote the Duke of Aosta at the Italian RF template it would look very suspicious and would not reflect very well on me. It's disputed both sides are presented that is all that is expected unless people have an agenda. As for my edit summary really you simply undid Surtsicna's edit and changed it back to dowager and didn't shift people around. - dwc lr (talk) 20:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I would put Maria above Nicholas only because her grand princely title is higher than Nicholas's princely title. Surtsicna (talk) 13:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That was part of my argument but sadly I had to compromise by adding in switches to change the order depending on the page. Compromises are usually fine but in this instance it really is nonsensical. Charles 14:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes she claims a higher title than Nicholas Romanovich claims both their titles are disputed. The changes that were made have to be viewed with suspicion (particularly reflecting on past actions) I personally could care less who is listed first as a long as a npov (both claims) are presented. They were and are. - dwc lr (talk) 14:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, you need to how to close your mouth, meaning you literally need to mind what your fingers are typing. You could care less who is listed first? Oh excuse me, who was the person who kept reverting? Charles 15:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I kept reverting due to your history of removing requests for citation related to Maria or her fathers claims etc. Like I said, I was suspicious. - dwc lr (talk) 15:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, okay, like you said, you don't care apparently but it obviously shows that you do. I'm not going to comment any further on such tragic faults. Charles 15:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

My word Nicholas Romanovich is listed beneath Maria at the Pretender article and in the succession box at Vladimir Cyrillovich's article . What an outrage I must rectify this at once.... On second thoughts It doesn't really concern me one bit believe it or not - dwc lr (talk) 15:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is Grand Duchess Leonida a dowager grand duchess?

User:Charles: Actually, the widow of the holder of any substantive title IS a dowager [6]

Well, according to this article, a "substantive title (or substantive peerage) is a title of nobility or royalty held by someone (normally by one person alone), which they gained through either grant or inheritance". Since 'Grand Duchess' is a title held by all female members of the Russian Imperial Family (just like 'princess' is a title held by every non-reigning female member of the British Royal Family), Grand Duchess Leonida cannot be a dowager grand duchess. Surtsicna (talk) 18:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Vladimir was "the" Grand Duke since he was the pretender. Take for example a comital or ducal family where all members share the same title, one would still be the head and his widow would be a dowager. Charles 20:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I understand what you mean. Thank you for explanation. Surtsicna (talk) 13:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem, glad I could have helped. Charles 14:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)