Talk:Rusyns

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[edit] Importance Rating

By the project scale, I would rate importance as "high", as Rusyns would qualfy as an "ethnic group"Pustelnik 20:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesnt the article I now post eliminate a need for this page? Who is wikipedia to debate the ethnicity of the Rusyns when Ukraine now recognizes them as an ethnic minority? [1]

OK with me. I have inserted ratings. I'm keeping this section open in case something thinks they deserve a higher or lower rating. Why is Ukraine's recognition of the Rusyns as an ethnic group relevant or important? Pustelnik 19:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Podkarpatska Rus

I would be very interested in an article about any transient independent state. I have liked this to Carpathian Ruthenia, which implies a legally autonomous area in the post World War I era, with little detail. Can someone clarify or expand this?Pustelnik 13:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] creating ethnicities?

Are we witnessing ethnicities being created here? I think we are but I'm not sure where... My ancestors referred to themselves as Rusyn (or Ruthenian, same thing, germanic version). They were not separate from the people that call themselves Ukrainians today. I think this splitting of words is completely based on politics. I think the Ukrainians realize that they share a history with the russians but are recoiling from the communist russia of the previous century. I think maybe those who refer to themselves as 'rusyn' or 'ruthenian' these days are recoiling from the nationalistic attitudes of Ukraine. Maybe the ruthenians are filled with a sense of pan-slavism. They should be careful of that. They should remember that this pan-slavism idea was :exploited by the Russians to give a purpose to invading the nations that surround them. They should also remember that they (the rusyns) :and the Ukrainians share the name Rusyn historically, while the Russians were Muscovites. To me Rusyn, Ruthenian and Ukrainian are all part of the same body. I'm guessing that this wikipedia article was written by Magcosi. I've read that he has written many books on the subject. In fact, I'm under the impression that he invented to idea of Rusyn's being a separate people. -Joe Yakimicki

Thank you. There seems to be an ongoing trend of creating new ethnicities on wikipedia. It's getting ridiculous and all for politial correctness. 72.144.68.226 23:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Joe, the issue isn't new and far from obvious. If you know Ukrainian, I suggest you go read some Rusyn web-sites. It is hard to call the language used there "Ukrainian". I naver have any difficulty to read in the Ukrainian variants from any part of Ukraine as well as diaspora publications. I can attest that what's at Rusyn sites is way different from what I see elsewhere. There are still not strictly defined answers to what makes a difference between a dialect and a separate language (mutual intellegibility is often cited but even that is not a universal answer).
I don't think Magocsi writes for Wikipedia and I would be delighted if people of his level woould but if the articles are based on his works, this is as solid a ref as any other. He is an established scholar. Please consider registering. --Irpen 07:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The truth is Rusyns are Ukrainians, and Ukrainians are Rusyns, "russians" are muscovians (moskali), the only reason Ukrainians call themselves Ukrainians is because muscovians stole the 'Rus' name because of how famous Kyivan Rus was at the time, muscovians wanted to become more famous. Ukrainians wanted to show they are not muscovians, people who call themselves Rusyns probably didn't know of muscovians stealing the name, thus they didn't see a reason to change their name to Ukrainians. So if we wanted to be really correct we would call Ukrainians/Rusyns Russians or Rusyns, and 'russians' muscovians!Nroscha 17:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

As a side commnent, when speaking of the people in Transcarpathia in his book on Ukrainian history Magosci consistantly refers to its people as "Rusyns/Ukrainians."Faustian 14:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

looking back on my comments and others, I think that I'm missing the point. I'm aiming too far in to history here. Even if these different cultures are relatively new (i.e., not 1000 years), it does not mean that it is not a distinct culture. Believe me, I am no expert here, just a bystander with a bit of interest in the area and it's people/history. (Joe Yakimicki, sept. 2007)

[edit] My Grandparents

When my Grandmother came to the US in the early 1900's she refered to herself as a Ruthenian. When I found her entry in a ships log through Ellis Island she is listed as Ruthenian and the term Russian was crossed out. Just my two cents. ---Steve

I'm an American, but I had Rusyn ancestors. Some were imprisoned at Talerhof, some formed the Lemko-Rusyn Republic, and others were deported in the Vistula operation. One even wrote a Rusyn Primer and reader in the 1930's, which was later suppressed by the Polish government. For the most part, they did not consider themselves to be Ukrainians, but Lemkos. My grandmother's sister immigrated to Canada, and did consider herself to be Ukrainian. Of course, the Canadian government considered her ethnic group to be "Austrians", and interned them in WW I. I would consider ethnicity to be self-defined. I resent someone insisting that my ancestors were Ukrainians, as they showed by their actions that they did not consider themslves to be Ukrainians.Pustelnik 18:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I was born in the US. My grandmother (Anna Hunchar Potocnak) always referred to herself as Ruthenian (Rusyn) Ukrainian, and Orthodox Catholic. She was quite adamant on her self-identification, and even stated she spoke both Ukrainian and Ruthenian (along with a few other languages). I do not think Rusyns are a subgroup that does not deserve an entry - quite the opposite. If she felt that adamant about her identification, obviously it meant quite a lot to those who fled the area to the US "diaspora".Winterlongone 21:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Edit

This article seemed to have been cut and pasted and re-editted to the extent that it did not make sense as a whole. I added a slew of links to connect it with other articles as well as enforced the term "Rusyns" throughout the article in order to not confuse the reader. I also added a section for references, should anyone have the time to peruse the major writings and expand this article. As for bias, I attempted to be neutral and hope that I presented as many viewpoints as possible.--tufkaa 16:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC) p.s.:Someone please correct my horrible translation of the Polish-language reference.--tufkaa 16:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I must say that the "overwhelming majority" of recent edits tend to focus too much on Ukraine, and the "overwhelming majority" who identify themselves as Ukrainian. I think that statements such as the height of political "Ruthenianism" in the mid-nineties cross the line with regards to NPOV. I'm not going to delete edits as yet, but would like the editors of this article to remember that it is about Rusyns and their history.--tufkaa 20:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering what you find objectionable about the above phrase. Also, given that most of historical Ruthenians/Rusyns (in Galicia, including the vast majority of Zakarpatia) consider themselves Ukrainian today, the Ukrainian focus seems appropriate. On a personal note, a know many recent immigrants from Zakarpatia (Prykarpatia) in the USA, none of whom considers themsevles Rusyn despite the different dialect (an example that sticks in my mind is the word for socks - "shtrympfy" - rather than "skarpetky". Faustian 22:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


I've said it before and I'll say it again: skarpetky is not a Ukrainian word.
Besides that minor point, my concern is the potential marginalization of Rusyns in their namesake WP article. Many Rusyns, Rusnaks, Lemkos, Hutsuls, etc., do not consider themselves anything but Rusyns, Rusnaks, Lemkos, or Hutsuls, etc. Precisely how many is debatable, but fortunately for Rusyns, there are now scholarly publications available on their history, language, etc. Look, I'm not a Rusyn nationalist; I'm just an editor who thinks that WP editors should give out at least an equal amount of respect towards marginalized cultures as those cultures which we hold near and dear to our heart. A phrase such as the height of political "Ruthenianism" in the mid-nineties makes it sound like this whole ethnicity was a big fad.--tufkaa 22:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I can see how the quotes around Ruthenianism look bad and am removing them. Otherwise the article seems fine, given that most western Ukrainians considered themselves Rusyns (any articel on Rusyns should not ignore this - someone looking for historical info on Rusyns with reference to Galicia get an article about more than just Yugoslav, American, etc., Rusyns). Cultural identity is an interesting thing and we will see with history if Rusyns turn out to be, like ethnic German Austrians with respect to Germany, ethnic Ukrainians with a different national orientations or a kind of "fad". respectfully, Faustian 23:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I find it sad and fascinating at the same time that some in Ukraine (neither Faustian nor Tufkaa are among them but I don't want to call names of some editors) like to talk about bads of the SU in relationtion with an effective denial of Ukrainian identity (or keeping it exclusively to folklore stuff) but as the same time, following the Ukrainian attainment of independence, do the same to Rusyns, calling them "Ukrainians". Remember the "Romanians who forgot their native language" thingy? I remember very well like some of our Verkhovna Rada deputies (I think it was the Plushch' time) screamed inside the parliament about the dangers of "Political Ruthenianism" (Політичний русинізм) in the '90s. A similar interview of Mykhailo Tyvodar I linked to the article a while ago to provide the diversity of opinions also speaks along those lines. To those who think that Rusyns are just Ukrainians, I suggest to go to any Rusyn web-sites and, don't read the Propaganda, but just look at the articles. This one for instance? Is this Ukrainian language? I remember a long discussion with User:PANONIAN and others where we tried to figure what "Перед кунківском церквю капітан ПВ одберат мельдунок" is supposed to mean.

So, let's separate two issues. Actually three issues. The first one is that in the Austrian Empire what we now call "Ukrainians" were all called "Ruthenians" (Russinen?) and given some reasonable freedom compared to their Ukrainian brethren of, say, Volhynia, of the RU empire, in order to prevent any splitting of the people's loyalty towards the more Russia-leaning parts of Ukraine as well as to Ukraine itself. Some of those people were, perhaps, simply Ukrainians in modern sense. Some where Rusyn. That's the first point. The second point is that the issue exists along with people. Due to its unfortunate politization, statistical data has to be treated with care but there is a significant amount of research (including but not limited to Magocsi) on the subject. And the third connected issue is that this politicization is harmful and editors should not scrutinize others exclusively to try to deduce some hidden political agenda.

Fazil Iskander wrote in his book that "Our science is so politicized that people somehow forget that the truth is interesting in its own right". (У нас наука настолько политизирована, что люди как-то забывают, что истина и сама по себе интересна) in connection with a dispute about the authorship of the "Great Abkhazian Wall". A useful reread for some (not the editors above) who are perpetually seeking a hidden agenda in every statement anyone makes at Wikipedia. --Irpen 15:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

With fascination I read the discussion at uk:Обговорення:Русин were our old friend illustrates what I was just talking about. I invite our tri-lingual Wikipedians to take a look as well at the discussions at other language wikipedia talk pages that discuss their respective articles. I especially like the introduction and comparison with the Russian/Moskal (Muscovite) "analogy". Whatever languages you can read, take a look, try to understand what to avoid and please come back. --Irpen 15:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the interesting commentary. The linked article [[2] was a fascinating read. Irpen, have you ever heard a "pure" Galician dialect? (nowadays it is more common among grandparents in the diaspora than in Ukraine, at least according to my visits there) I am no professional linguist, but to me the Lemko passage seems to be a combination of Galician and Russian. Perhaps that reflects a similarity with Belorusyn of which I am unfamiliar, or even an insertion of Russian words by the Russophile coders of the Rusyn language, comparable to the Church Slavonic insertions into the literary Russian language when it was first codified. The use of the passive tense (?) ся or ce comparable to Spanish se is typical of Galicia as well. I found lists of some Galician words (which didn't include the Galician spatzeruvaty for huliaty or the Austrian-derived greeting servus): [3] [4]. But unfortunately I haven't been able to get an entire passage, as a comparison to the Lemko passage would have been interesting. Perhaps they would be equally far apart from literary Ukrainian language based on the Poltava (central/eastern Ukraine) dialect. All of which point to the numerous potential possibilities inherent in national identitification and language. It is a fascinating subject, and perhaps if I have time I will try to devote an article to it - it would take a couple of hours, though, so who knows when that will happen.

As for Ukrainian sensitivity to the Rusyn issue, I think it stems from several sources. Firstly, the issues and conflict are quite familar in the nationalistic West. There, where the local dialect is similar to Rusyn, the same conflict between Ukrainophiles and Rusynophiles and Russophiles also played out, in the 19th century. The victor in Galicia is quite clear. To a Galician, a Rusynophile from America or across the Slovak border may seem like an unpleasant throwback to an earlier heretofore resolved conflict.

Secondly, the Rusynophile orientation was explicitly utilised by Hungarian and Polish authorites in their respective lands to try to seperate their subject peoples' from the greater Ukrainian nation. In the case of the Poles, Austrian neutrality prevented the Poles from fully using their resources and the Russinophile orientation withered in Galicia, although the Poles tried to revive it after 1920 by forcing Galician Ukrainians to refer to themselves as Rusyns in official documents. By then it was too late, the Ukrainian identity had been set, and the result was only resentment for "Rusynism." In the lands under Hungary (Zakarpatia), in contrast, before 1914 Rusynism received the explicit support of the state and therefore survived, albeit even with the state support it was no more than equal to the Ukrainophile orientation there (according to Magosci's book on Ukrainian history). All of these events have led many Ukrainians to view Rusynism as a sort of foreign (Polish, Hungarian, or Russian)intrigue and its proponents as some sort of collaborators. The irony here is obvious, as the same accusations have been levelled against Ukrainanism itself by some Russians.

Thirdly, the similarities between Rusyn and other western Ukrainian cultures and language are so great that it is frankly difficult for (particularly Western) Ukrainians to view Rusyns as a different people. It would be analogous, perhaps, to a situation in which some Alabamans insisted that Alabama was a seperate nation with its own language, codified the language of Faulkner (which, obviously, is quite different from standard English), while Mississipians remained "patriotic Americans" and merged their speech with that of standard American English.

My own personal opinion is that national identity depends on the people's self-identification. If most Rusyns come to feel themselves as a separate nation, than for whatever reason they arrive at this conclusuion it is their right to do so. But this issue should be independent from one of ethnicity or linguistic categorization. And it is still far from settled. As I mentioned earlier, Rusyns may become like Austrians in relation to Germans, a seperate nation. Or their national orientation may turn out to have been a fashion, like the supposed unique ethnicity of Polish nobles (Sarmatism) or the Bavarian indepenence movement [5].Faustian 19:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

And a Lviv dictionary: [6]. Faustian 20:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More ethnicities

Now "Pannonian Rusyns" are a different ethnicity than "Rusyns" because they live in a different location and speak a different language. Well then I guess "German Americans" are a separate ethnicity from "Germans". See Pannonian Rusyn. 72.144.68.226 23:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

'even more new ethnicities' was a bad title Idiszero 01:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Famous Rusyns

I wonder why the "Famous Rusyns" section was removed? --ISasha 19:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a shame, considering the notable personalities that are identified with the Rusyn heritage: Andy Warhol, Peter Wilhousky, Tom Ridge, Michael Strank et al. (192.77.143.154 14:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)) ~~

[edit] Biassed opinions!

Please be aware that this page contains some very biassed opinions by the members of Ukrainian community. Ukrainian nationalists are very well known for denying Rusyns being a separate ethnicity. In the history of this page you can see a number of edits which were clearly caused by one's personal subjective views. One good example would be a number of Rusyns population these days. 54000 is a ridiculous number which does not represent the reality in any way.

Sorry, but we go by scientific data such as recognized surveys, census, etc. If your claims differ wildly from these, than it seems that you are the one using biased opinions. Faustian 12:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, it's a right of every individual to be able to say what they want but I would take it with a grain of salt when Chinese nationalists talk about Tibetans or when Russian nationalists talk about Ukrainians. Or when Ukrainian nationalists talk about Rusyns.

 Nationalism is a European concept superimposed on us.  We hate it.  We are composed of over 400 cultural-lingual groups in which Tibetian is a term used by British to create a lie
 that there was a Tibetian Kingdom.  There are over 200 Living Buddhas in Four separate sects who are independent, of whom Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are the leaders of the Yellow 
 Sect, and there are Red Sect, Black Sect and Flower Sect.  Keep your ignorance to your own, so not use us to againt the Han brothers.

(Fixing the formatting as the old one is nigh impossible to read)

Panchelan

The figure of 54,000 or so is from official census data. Sorry, but only about 10,000 people in Ukraine actually identified themselves as Rusyns on the last Ukrainian census. In modern Ukraine most Rusyns consider themselves of Ukrainian nationality. Faustian 16:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rusyn self-identification

Some Rusyns don't even subscribe to the idea of a separate Rusyn nation, and would bristle at the idea of being called Ukrainian. I come from a Rusyn family that identifies heavily with being Russian, although their language and culture is decidedly more Ukrainian than Russian. I believe the term for people like me is "Russophile" and I know of many Rusyns who are similarly aligned.

to add

Ruthenians and Rusyns are name for nowadays Ukrainians. All my father’s family are Lemko Rusyns. Still they are Ukrainians. My mother's family from Bucovyna are Rusyns is well, and they are Ukrainians. Will give you an example of Ruthenians from Bukovyna. I want to show that Ruthenian or Rusyns is the name for Ukrainians on the example of postcards from time of Austro-Hungarian Empire from Bucovyna:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/a/r/aritmija/image032.jpg

http://pics.livejournal.com/igorsova/pic/00001696

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3605/ukrainiansis2.jpg

And here some fragments from a book "Русини а Москалі", written by Bucovinian Rusyns (Ukrainians) in Rutheian language (Ukrainian), dated 1911, from Chernivtsi where strongly emphasised that Rusyns are not Moscovites (Russians):

http://choana.livejournal.com/114557.html#cutid1

[edit] Move

Shouldn’t this be at Rusyn people? —Wiki Wikardo 23:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] anthem

Podkarpatskije Rusiny is considered the Rusyn "national anthem", Ja Rusyn byl jesm' i budu - should it have a comma: Ja Rusyn byl, jesm' i budu? (meaning would be I was Rusyn, [I] am and will be)--Constanz - Talk 12:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

Adding up numbers by yourself is original research, especially when you do it from multiple sources. Conqueror100, please review these policies before reverting again. Khoikhoi 07:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we should avoid giving any sort of precise numbers here. Estimates and ranges should do as the issue is affected by politics a lot. Census numbers indicate not the actual population but the number obtained by census takers. Even if census was taken in the best way, still the precision of each census number is different and if you add numbers for a small fringe group obtained in 5 different country censuses, you can't claim the precision better than 10%. Of course the census numbers should be given but the total number is best to reference to some source that estimates the world number. If we can't find such number and all we do is add the census numbers, we should give an ~5k range, IMO. --Irpen 20:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

about US census here are some numbers: http://www.everyculture.com/North-America/European-Americans-Bibliography.html In 1980 about 600,000 Americans were of Carpatho-Rusyn ancestry, although only 8,485 claimed such ancestry in the 1980 census. This is in part because many identify themselves as Ukrainians or Russians and because the U.S. census no longer considers the Carpatho-Rusyns as a distinct group. Magocsi, Paul R. (1984). Our People: Carpatho-Rusyns and Their Descendants in North America. Toronto: Multicultural History Society of Ontario.

Carpatho Rusyn 3,997 http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=D&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-mt_name=ACS_2002_EST_G2000_PCT026


[edit] 100% Rusyn

I am 100% Rusyn. My grandparents were from Galicia (now in Poland), Northeast Slovakia and Ukraine (all in the Carpathian mountains). They identified themselves as Ruthenians when they came to the U.S. They spoke the Rusyn language (different but similar dialects), went to Greek Catholic and Orthodox churches (Byzantine), depending on what region they were from, followed Rusyn customs, etc. I love our old customs. When I went to Europe, I found that in each area they had their own Rusyn schools, beautiful wooden churches - everything was distinctly Rusyn. I have read that Ukraine is now recognizing the Rusyns as a separate and distinct people. Now maybe the Rusyns there will not be afraid to identify themselves as Rusyns and you will see the numbers go up. When I visited my family there, they were afraid to say they were Rusyn and were so happy that I was an American and proud to be a Rusyn. We had an interesting discussion about this issue. Creating ethnicities? I don't think so. I am a Rusyn, my parents were Rusyn, my grandparents were Rusyn, etc. (RusynA 14:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

Well, all great-great grandparents of Galicians were Rusyns. Galician Rusyns turned into Ukrainians by 1920; for varioous historical reasons on the other side of the Carpathians this process was not as complete. Ethnicities are created all over the place, there is nothing wrong with that. In the case of Rusyns, like Moldovans with respect to Romanians, the story is not yet over...Faustian 17:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This debate is purely semantical. There is no certain way to tell the dialect from the language as well as to tell a national subgroup from a separate nation. And, yes, these issues are affected by politics as well. We should just describe the situation without attaching any labels ourselves. --Irpen 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

A reasonable conclusion, as usual. Faustian 17:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because certain countries want to try and snuff out ethnic minorities doesn't mean the people themselves don't identify as a separate culture. language content has been discussed, but really, just the number of websites and ORGANIZED SOCIETIES pertaining to the Rusyn people indicates that a significant amount of Rusyns identify themselves as Rusyn, NOT Ukranian, Slovak, Polish, Serbian, etc. Observe these links. [7] [8] [9] [10] lists other scholarly organizations identifying with the Rusyn people. [11] [12] I challenge any Ukranian to see if this language is their own.

I am not a linguist. To my unprofessional ear, the language seems like the Galician dialect mixed with a little Russian and perhaps Church Slavonic. It is more easily understandable for a Ukrainian than, say, the Bavarian dialect is for a northern German. Which does not mean a seperate Rusyn nation couldn't exist.
With all due respect, number of web sites doesn't mean much. Otherwise, given over one million websites on alien abduction [13] one would assume that this is a widespread problem. Seriously, as the actual Ukrainian census shows, only over 10,000 people out of a population of over 1 million in Ukrainian Zakarpatia actually identified themselves as Rusyns.
Think about this question of identity in relation to our own country's history. When various Eastern European immigrants came to the U.S., they were determined to be considered 'American' because of the prejudice and disrespect that came with the status of 'immigrant.' I'm sure something similar was at least at one time taking place in The Ukraine. As has been said below, if the Ukrainian government would acknowledge Rusyns as a seperate ethnic group the numbers would go up. (24.229.60.165 22:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC))

Interesting

A good balanced article on the topic, provided by Irpen:


-Faustian 04:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


Ruthenians and Rusyns are name for nowadays Ukrainians. All my father’s family are Lemko Rusyns. Still they are Ukrainians. My mother's family from Bucovyna are Rusyns is well, and they are Ukrainians. Will give you an example of Ruthenians from Bukovyna. I want to show that Ruthenian or Rusyns is the name for Ukrainians on the example of postcards from time of Austro-Hungarian Empire from Bucovyna:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/a/r/aritmija/image032.jpg

http://pics.livejournal.com/igorsova/pic/00001696

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3605/ukrainiansis2.jpg

And here some fragments from a book "Русини а Москалі", written by Bucovinian Rusyns (Ukrainians) in Rutheian language (Ukrainian), dated 1911, from Chernivtsi where strongly emphasised that Rusyns are not Moscovites (Russians):

http://choana.livejournal.com/114557.html#cutid1

The problem is very simple - Rusyns are not Ukrainians but Ukrainians are Rusyns. "Ukrainian" is just a weird name designed for them that's why Slovak Rusyns can't adopt it... 91.127.47.237 17:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


Ukrainians and Rusyns are the same nation. Just like Greeks and Ellinicos, Georgians and Sakartvelo, Armenians and Hayer. seven


Ladies and Gentelmen! I would like to remind you, that the mission of Wikipedia is descriptive rather than prescriptive. This means that we are here not to decide whether Rusyns are a separate ethnos or a subethnos of Ukrainians. We have just to describe facts: some number of people in Slovac Republic, Poland and Ukraine identify themselves as Rusyn and do not consider themselves Ukrainian. This is just a plain fact.

On the other hand there is no facts supporting the claim that nearly the whole population of Transkarpattia Oblast are Rusyns. As well as there is no fact indicating that any significant number of Hutsuls and Boikos identify themselves as Rusyns. Concerning Lemkos, the situation is different. A significant part of them claim distinct from Ukrainian (Rusyn or a separate Lemko) ethnicity. But we should not forget the fact that a significant number of Lemkos do identify themselves as Ukrainians.

Let us just describe these facts in Wikipedia. Our own views on the subject can be discussed at internet forums rather than at Wikipedia. Regards, --AndriyK 08:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 60,000

It exists 60,000 people, who claim that they are Rusyns. These are numbers from national official bureaus for statistics:

Slovakia - 24,201
( http://www.statistics.sk/webdata/english/census2001/tab/tab3a.htm )
Serbia - 15,626
( http://www.statserb.sr.gov.yu/zip/esn31.pdf )
Ukraine - 10,100
( http://ukrcensus.gov.ua/results/general/nationality/zakarpatia/ )
Croatia - 2,337
( http://www.dzs.hr/default_e.htm )
Poland - 5,800
( http://www.stat.gov.pl/english/ )
Hungary - 1,098
( http://www.nepszamlalas.hu/eng/volumes/18/tables/load1_28.html )
Czech Republic - 1,106
( http://www.czso.cz/csu/2005edicniplan.nsf/t/D6002FD8F5/$File/kap_I_05.pdf ).

So I came to the conclusion that 24,201+15,626+10,100+2,337+5,800+1,098+1,106=60,268. It is standard counting of numbers and it does not violate WP:SYN. Conqueror100 16:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Faustian 16:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:SYN. Khoikhoi 23:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no data concerning Ukraine. No Rusyns are mentioned here (http://ukrcensus.gov.ua/results/general/nationality/zakarpatia/.) Your calculations are wrong--133.41.84.172 10:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. But Ukrainian government does not recognize Rusyns as a separate East Slavic nation ( or ethnic group ). Cca 10,100 people declared their nationality as Rusyn, but Ukrainian bureau for statistics counted this number to number of Ukrainians. Conqueror100 16:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
May be these 10 000 had realy decleared themselves as separate ethnic group, however this number is not included in the source you:ve presented concerning Ukraine (http://ukrcensus.gov.ua/results/general/nationality/zakarpatia/.). So no wonder, that your calculations are wrong. The number of 10000 men looks seems to be your personal fantasy...--133.41.84.206 16:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Rusyns are presented under section: The number of persons of distinct etnographical groups and their mother tongue. The link is only for website. The number of Rusyns ( 10,100 ) in Ukraine is generally recognised (see other sources, please
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/09/cc55d9c7-9e80-4d29-bb1f-2e34a99ef888.html
http://www.unpo.org/article.php?id=5500
http://www.templetonthorp.com/en/news1354). Conqueror100 17:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

When you guys are done with revert warring and have the article unprotected, please add this ref to an article. In the meanwhile, please read it.

It is easy to google the credentials of this respected scholar. BTW, he is the author of the current Britannica's article on Ukraine. Happy edits. --Irpen 17:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What a great article. Thanks, Faustian 18:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Interesting article, but it ignores the western parts of Galicia, that became part of Poland after WW I. Reading this article, you would assume that all of Galicia became part of Ukraine, which is not the case. The western parts that became part of Poland had a much more Rusyn orientation, certainly after 1880. See articles on Talerhof and the Lemko-Rusyn Republic.Pustelnik 12:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Created image for the article

I chose the images of the four most recognisable Rusyns (and who have free images, so the image wont be removed due to license problems) and compiled an image for the article. I think it came out pretty good so... enjoy :-) (it's about time the article has it's image). M.V.E.i. 22:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lemko (Rusyns); Hutsuls, Boikos (Ukrainians)

The almost part of Lemkos call themself Rusyns, but almost Hutsuls and Boikos call themself Ukrainians. First Ukrainians immigrants came to Argentina in 1897. They were from southwestern Ukraine (Boikivhchyna, Trancarpathia, Hutsulshchyna, Bukovyna, Podillia and Besarabia). The immigrants from Boikivschyna, Transcarpathia and Hutsulshchyna called themself Ukrainians. My grandparents were Boikos´and Hutsuls´sons and they called themself Ukrainians. These immigrants were proud be Ukrainians. I´m proud too be descendent of Ukrainian Hutsuls and Boikos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.55.77.228 (talk) 03:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)