Talk:Rugby union positions

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What's the problem with the term out-half? It's by far the most common term used (in Ireland at any rate) for the number 10 position. The official Munsterrugby site even lists O'Gara as an out-half.... http://www.munsterrugby.ie/provincialplayerpage/17119.html

There is a standard set of names for positions as used by the IRB. It was created because different unions use different names for the same position e.g. fly half, outside half, stand-off, first five eights etc, this causes confusion especially amongst those new to the game. I had never heard of the term 'out half' until you used it. I think it's best to use the standard terms on what is an international project ot at least put the standard term in brackets 'out half (fly half)'. Have a look at Rugby union positions to see how confusing it can be. GordyB 12:09, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

http://www.irb.com/Playing/training/Understanding+Rugby.htm lists a number of names for the number 10 position but it's not clear if one is favoured (or more standard) than any other (unless there's another page/document from the IRB that sheds some light on it). Having said that "first five eight" and "fly half" seem to be mentioned more frequently than "out-half". Having the discussion associated with this page (and maybe copying it to the Rugby Positions Article) will provide some useful information for those (like me!) that get confused. Rhd_7

As far as I know there is no IRB document available on the internet that states what their prefered terms are. I can only show you what sources I used to produce that article. The article you linked to was obviously written by a New Zealander as the terms he uses first are Kiwi terms (usually similar to rugby league terminology) see Rugby League positions, the second set are the standard IRB terms. Wikipedia tries to use neutral terms where possible so for example the game known to Americans as 'football' is listed under 'American football' despite the fact that Americans do not use this term themselves where as Association football goes under 'football (soccer)'. In Ireland it is common to refer to Gaelic football as 'football' but that would mislead a non-Irishman. Most Britons would probably guess that out half=outside half (still reasonably common term) but I'm not sure that southern hemisphere types would.GordyB 19:36, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think all the various names for the positions should be used. The names given here have a distinctly Australian feel to them. However I think that the purpose of Wikipedia is to produce an encyclopedic account of the subject matter, even if to my ears or to your ears the names might sound strange, however I shall defer from adding all various the names of positions for a while in case there is some disagreement on this point Dje1232/05/2005]

The names here are not Australian, they are rather closer to British usage. I'd rather keep using the 'standard terms' so as not to confuse people who are new to the sport. Also the position names can be contradictory e.g. an Australian lock is not an English lock.GordyB 12:20, 2 May 2005 (UTC) I've reverted the changes you made because thye fact that flyhalf is called first five eigths in New Zealand and scrumhalf is a halfback is already noted. See paragraphs under 'alternative names' and 'collective terms'. If want to expand this section feel free.GordyB 12:31, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

There aren't enough links to this page especially from player bios. This is probably because of the complexity of linking to specific player positions. I've put the code for links here so that they can be copy / pasted into different rugby union articles.GordyB 22:04, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[[Rugby union positions#1. Loosehead prop & 3. Tighthead prop|prop]]
[[Rugby union positions#2. Hooker|hooker]]
[[Rugby union positions#4. & 5. Lock|lock]]
[[Rugby union positions#6. Blindside flanker & 7. Openside flanker|flanker]]
[[Rugby union positions#8. Number eight|number 8]]
[[Rugby union positions#9. Scrum-half|scrum half]]
[[Rugby union positions#10. Fly-half|fly-half]]
[[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre & 12. Inside centre|centre]]
[[Rugby union positions#14. and 11. Wing|wing]]
[[Rugby union positions#15. Full back|fullback]]


Contents

[edit] Number 8 or Eighthman? Or both

As long as I have played rugby I have played 'Eighthman'. Admittedly I was referred to as an 'Eighthman' more when I lived in South Africa, and since immigrating to Australia I have been referred to more commonly as a number 8.

Are there any reasons here why I should not change the name to Eighthman? Can anyone find any evidence that either Number 8 or Eighthman is the official title for the position (since we're keeping it with IRB standards)

Travis

Travsuth (talk) 04:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no official title in Law, but "Number 8" is preferred everywhere except South Africa, and the IRB use "number eight" exclusively in their communications. It would be odd, to say the least, to replace the name used by the vast majority with the one used solely in SA. -- GWO (talk)
Actually, FWIW, the Laws do express a preference: Law 20.1(f) of the U19 variations refers explicitly to the "the Number 8" (their capitalisation). -- GWO (talk)
I think "Number 8" is definitely more widespread; so "changing to 'Eighthman'" would not be appropriate. Certainly needs mentioning though. Perhaps showing where the various position names are used could also be interesting in the article.
BTW. Travis! Normal procedure is that new messages are appended to the end of the list ;-) Greetings to all TINYMARK 07:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
THere is a section at the top that does explain some of the variations as belonging to this-or-that country.GordyB (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Shot guys, Number 8 it is. Sorry about that Mark. Travis Travsuth (talk) 06:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inside Centre and Outside Centre

I am thinking about merging the two sections on inside centres and outside centres. Most player bios simply say that a particular player was / is a centre without specifying which type of centre. Possibly this is due to players having played both positions. This means that many player bios don't have a link to this article. The two different types of flanker and prop have a merged section and this seems to work well.

The only drawback I can think of is that it will mess up a lot of links. I'll do my best to fix these.

I'm posting this here to give people a chance to agree / object before I start making any dramatic changes.GordyB 11:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Nobody objected but apologies for not waiting longer as I had itchy fingers. Hope I didn't upset anyone.

The old [[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre|Outside Centre]] and [[Rugby union positions#12. Inside centre|Inside Centre]] links will now not work. If you come across one please replace it with [[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre & 12. Inside centre|outside centre]] or [[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre & 12. Inside centre|inside centre]] respectively.GordyB 13:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

i think nowadays the inside the smaller of the two e.g giteau, mauger,etc and the outside the larger, nonu, mortlock, o'driscoll etc

[edit] Lists of notable players

It's getting out of control IMO. Originally I had intended that only the greats would be listed, here were a few current players, but they were only the very top draw. At the moment players are getting added who are simply good. Among others I've deleted links to Steve Borthwick, Harry Ellis and recently an England A player. I just want to get other people's opinions before I embark on a blitz of deleting 'minor' players, especially as my own POV bias may well creep in on who counts as 'minor'.GordyB 23:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Now completed purge. I can't say that I am completely free from bias or that I am a fantastic judge of who is top draw and who is not but something had to be done. Westcoombe Park players getting added is a joke.GordyB 10:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should cull the notable players from the article completely. --Bob 18:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I know where you are coming from. Perhaps we could delete the lot but add in only players in the IRB hall of fame.GordyB 21:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be better than what is currently there. --Bob 22:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note on the rugby union project talk page. If nobody comes up with a better idea then I'll do as I suggested.GordyB 20:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree we should cull players that are not in the International Rugby Hall of Fame (it's not IRB, that one is different I think). We should have a quick vote. Add your comment here, either support Gordy's proposal, oppose changing it, or propose removing all players:

  1. Support - Have only Hall of Fame members - Shudda talk 21:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support - Have only Hall of Fame members --Bob 21:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I've done my best. I've listed players mostly only by the position that they were most famous for e.g. Campo is listed as a wing but not as a fullback but Lochore is listed once as a number 8 and once as a lock. Inductees that are mostly famous for being coaches e.g. Carwyn James aren't listed and nor is Wavell Wakefield as I'm not sure what position he did play (centre?).GordyB 16:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wavell Wakefield was a back row forward. In modern parlance, he'd probably be thought of as an open side, but things weren't so clear cut back then, although it might be said that he invented the idea of the modern open side. Oh, and I support the idea of only Hall of Famers making this article. It's too arbitrary and too prone to the present otherwise. -- GWO

Is J Wilkinson not in the No10 hall of fame yet then? Seems like a harsh judgement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.44.131 (talk) 00:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It's for retired players only. -- GWO (talk) 07:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who provides the power in the scrum?

Just read the Prop and Lock sections of this article, and noticed that in both sections it is stated that the respective positions being described are responsible for providing the power in the scrum. Any chance of clarification please? Puchu 04:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer's "both". I've amended the article to reflect this. -- GWO
Thanks for that mate Puchu 09:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fullback vs Full Back

The fullback subtitle has been changed from Rugby union positions#15. Full back to Rugby union positions#15. Fullback. That's broken many of the existing links from the biographys. Should this be reverted or can we think of a better way to do this? Saint-djc 15:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

We could use the templates found in Category:Rugby_union_position_templates. This way, if ever there is a change in the article, or if individual articles are ever made, it will be easier to change a few templates rather than hundreds of articles. --Bob 19:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section names

There have been some recent changes to the article where section headings have been altered. Although additions and alterations to the article are great, section headings shouldn't be changed without consultation here. The reason is that there are lots of wiki-links to the sections for the different positions. So if the section names are changed the links go dead! So please please resist changing the section names, and if you see a name has been changed without a consensus having been reached here please revert it. Thanks. - Shudda talk 08:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Changing "scrum half" to "half back" actually introduces extra ambiguity. Half the world may say "Half back" to mean #9, but the other half uses "Half back" to mean either #9 or #10. At least "scrum half" only has one meaning, even if its not commonly used in the SH (and it used in South Africa See http://www.sarfu.org.za/default.asp?cId=7534&print=yes for example) -- GWO
It is also the term preferred by the IRB who are the international governing body. Why would using terms specific to one hemisphere or another be an improvement?GordyB 16:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 7 0n 7 women's rugby

13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)~jigsMy granddaughter is involved in 7 0n 7...How does this game differ from the one described on your site? jigs(66.186.79.11 13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC))

See rugby sevens.GordyB 13:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number 8 section

The section for Number 8 seems very biased. Is Lions the only team to currently have good Number 8s? TinyMark 19:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blindside and Openside Flanker Issue

I noticed that the article was far too long, and shortened it summarising to a level similar of the other positions. My wording is a bit arkward in places though, so feel free to edit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.28.12 (talk • contribs)

It did need to be shortened, but rather then lose all that information I split it off into a new article titled Flanker (rugby union). The article is prob of adequate length to justify this. I would also appreciate some help in expanding it some more. Thanks. - Shudde talk 03:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)