Talk:Rugby league positions

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[edit] Article Title

I moved this page from Rugby League positions, in keeping with the titling of the main article as rugby league (no capitials). Grinner 15:11, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

The links below should copied and pasted into articles e.g. player bios. GordyB 11:13, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • I modified the previous headings to make them more 'link-able'. I admit, I didn't think before I made the changes, but I do believe these headings are far simplier, which is better. Many other pages where changed based on the special 'what links here' page. POds 12:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Good call in my opinion. Grinner 12:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

It's is easier to use. I am going to change the player position links in the diagram on this page which seem to have slipped through the net. GordyB 14:57, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[[Rugby league positions#Prop-forwards|prop]]
[[Rugby league positions#Hooker|hooker]]
[[Rugby league positions#Second-row forwards|second row]]
[[Rugby league positions#Lock|loose forward]]
[[Rugby league positions#Scrum-half|scrum-half]]
[[Rugby league positions#Stand-off|stand-off]]
[[Rugby league positions#Centre three-quarters|centre]]
[[Rugby league positions#Wing three-quarters|wing]]
[[Rugby league positions#Fullback|fullback]]

[edit] SH versus NH usage

Cleaned up the mish-mash of terminology, which alternated between SH & NH, but this has changed the lock link, so feel free to revert if it's a problem --Paul 02:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that Aussies / Kiwis say 'lock' whilst we say 'loose forward'. I think we need to reach some consensus on the terminology used in the article. Everytime the titles are edited the links to specific sections stop working which creates a lot of editing work. I started this article and there is a Wiki protocol on British versus American usage that in articles where using one or another version doesn't make more sense e.g. an article on British politics the convention should be to follow the original usage. I originally had intended to keep both Aussie and UK terminology at as near equal status as possible. Obviously RL is much bigger in Australia than in the UK and most British followers of RL are pretty familiar with Australianisms it is a British sport by origin.GordyB 13:05, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
It appeared as if you had originally used NH terms, so as you say, the Wikipedia convention would be to retain that style (I'm SH, and personally it doesn't bother me). So that's what I did, with the SH usage noted. Before that, the heading would say e.g. Stand-off, and then subsequently refer to a 5/8, which seemed rather haphazard to me, and the bit I wanted to clean up. --Paul 15:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Just adding to the confusion, but are the terms Centre three-quarters and Wing three-quarters still used in the UK? They sound rather archaic to me, certainly I would simply say Wing and Centre. Perhaps its a measure of creeping Australianisation, though on the other hand I would never say lock. (Ughh!) Grinner 09:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It's kind of the other way here, usage of centre three-quarter has been known (rarely though, probably because it's bit of a mouthful). Up until at least the mid-90s, Big League (the official program) groups the centres and wingers under the heading 'threequarters'. But loose forward? Never. --Paul 12:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we should drop the '3/4s bit' from the titles as it only ever seems to be used in coaching manuals. Perhaps the text should make reference to 'threequarters' somewhere. Scrum half / halfback, stand-off / 5/8ths, loose forward / lock seem to be the only major differences. If we can agree a standard format e.g. NH terms in titles and SH in the text then we can leave it at that and change the links accordingly. In the meantime I'm removing the '3/4s' bit.GordyB 13:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Just regarding the whole 'three-quarters' business. I consider myself a bit of a league connoisuer but I don't know where the useage of the term 'three quarter' as a suffix to 'wing' and 'centre' comes from. In Australia we hear it used here and there by match commentators, but not often. You guys said it seemed archaic and something to be found in coaching manuals, which I think are two perfect criterion for inclusion in this wikipedia article. Plus, I'm simply curious to know what it means myself! Can anyone insert an explanation into the article?--Jeff79 08:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a hang-over from union, the three-quarters stand behind the half-backs but in front of the fullback hence they are three quarters back. Stand-off gets called five eights in the Southern Hemisphere because they are slightly further forward than the 3/4s but further back than the scrum half.
I don't think it makes much sense in league because most of the time the backs are level with the forwards, only those involved in the play-the-ball or the full back are usually significantly forwards or back.GordyB 15:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting Sources?

I've noticed the official harlequins site displaying a few articles recently about rugby league positions. Perhaps these could be of use? POds 12:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I shall be incorporating the info as best I can, though much of it is comparison with the union code which although interesting would not fit into the scope of the article. Those who are interested should note that there is also an article on props and second rows on the same site.GordyB 15:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acting half-back / dummy half

I've heard the term "acting half" more often than "dummy half", is this a Northern Hemisphere/Southern hemisphere usage? I think the term should be included, and will put it in if no-one objects.

From the 13-a-side rules, Section 11:

Acting halfback

(f) A player of each team, to be known as the acting halfback, may stand immediately and directly behind his own player taking part in the play-the- ball and must remain in this position, until the play-the-ball movement is complete.

Paul Tracy|\talk

Add it by all means but don't change the names of any titles as this breaks the links.GordyB 23:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Can I add another plea for people not to change the titles of the player positions, it breaks any anchored links that have been set up on other pages e.g. [[Rugby league positions#Scrum-half|scrum-half]] will only work if the ==Scrum-half== title is not changed.GordyB 23:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Position Names and Notable Players

I think Stand-off and five-eighth should be given equal standing in the headings for positions. The same with Scrum-half and halfback. Rugby League is more prominent in Australia than any other country, and I daresay quite alot of use of this article will be sourced there. But most Australians wouldn't even know what a stand-off or scrum-half is. Within the text of the article, referring to them as stand-offs and scrum-halfs is fine, but I think just the headings should be changed to Stand-off (Five-Eighth) and Scrum-half (Halfback) respectively so readers can see what the following section is about without having to read it for clues.

Second point is the list of "notable" players appearing under each position. I think people are just coming along and adding players they like, whether they're notable or not. I think there should be some criteria, eg. international selection. Several players are mentioned who only ever played at club level and several players who attained representative status (and are thus actually 'notable') aren't mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.53.78.141 (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

As I have pointed out repeatedly, if the titles are changed then the anchored links stop working. If you can work out a way to prevent this then go ahead but otherwise please don't.GordyB 09:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Johnathan Thurston was added to notable half-backs, because he is now considered to be the best half-back in the game.--KorgBoy

Sorry mate, you need to read on a bit.--Jeff79 00:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks mate. I read up on that last time. For this year, having gained his second Dally M medal and best halfback in NRL, and with 6 entries in second-row forward, Johnathan Thurston deserves to be on the notable halfback list. --KorgBoy

[edit] Notable (position)s include:

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to reach a concensus on some kind of criteria for what 'notable' means for these lists. In my opinion the lists are too long and they continue to get longer as people come along and add more. Also people just add their favourite players regardless of whether they're truly notable. As the length increases the meaning of 'notable' becomes more diluted. Rather than this being a subjective decision of editors, why don't we make it more objective? I propose that inductees into the Rugby League Hall of Fame qualify as 'notable'. Also recipients of the RLIF Golden Boot Award can be added. Dally M Medal, Man of Steel Award and Clive Churchill Medal winners, as well as Test team captains may also be possibilities. That's not to say that ALL players that fall under these categories should be added. But if they are added they won't be removed. What do others think?--Jeff79 20:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty much what we did on the equivalent union page except that there is one IRB hall of fame. I agree with this suggestion and the awards that you mention.GordyB 22:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there really needs to be any more than five examples per position. I've reduced it to this number which I expect may cause some controversy. However all names appearing in the notable lists on this page pass at least one of the criteria above except Steve Walters (Hooker), Glenn Lazarus and Shane Webcke (Prop). The pickings were slimmer for hookers and props. Walters, Webcke and Lazarus were all widely considered the world's best players in their positions during their respective eras. The lists are by no means set in concrete. Cases for other individuals replacing those listed in the article are open for discussion on this page. If they hold some records and have good wikipedia articles that will certainly work in their favour. Trying to have a nice international mix of players is good too I think. But I think going over five reduces the effectiveness/relevance of the lists. Just my opinion though.--Jeff79 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Added Martin Offiah to make up five wingers. Few could argue that being a Member of the Order of the British Empire doesn't qualify as notable I think.--Jeff79 01:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added a comment to the article to discuss future changes on the talk page. Comments can dramatically cut down the number of edits that need to be reverted.GordyB 10:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Add two notable non-Australian props if you like. I guess New Zealand's Ruben Wiki? Apparently he's the most capped international of any country.--Jeff79 19:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC) Added Wiki.--Jeff79 20:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Who's more famous: Brian McTigue or Cliff Watson? Watson has a better article but it says he's second only to McTigue.--Jeff79 20:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC) Added Watson on the strength of his article being better.--Jeff79 20:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Replaced Willie Mason with Denis Betts and Shane Webcke with Jamie Peacock for a more international mix, and both Betts and Peacock have won significant accolades as outlined above.--Jeff79 19:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Still need at least one notable non-Australian hooker.--Jeff79 21:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Seriously guys keep Shane Webcke, I've noticed someone keeps adding him and he get deleted. He is omne of the 3 greatest props ever and there up there (Arthur and Glenn)why not Shane? Who cares about having English and Australians equal you cant keep Shane Webcke out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.113.234.47 (talk) 04:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I delete it because nobody bothers to discuss what changes should be made to the list, since you have I will leave it for Jeff to decide.GordyB 13:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC
Being a devout Queenslander and Bronco, you'll have no argument from me that Shane Webcke is one of, if not the greatest prop of all time. But as I've outlined quite clearly above, I'm trying to take personal opinions out of the equation. Who cares about an international mix? Gordy and I do. You'll have to address what's already been stated and agreed upon above. Again, the whole idea is to remove subjectivity.--Jeff79 10:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't Darren Lockyer on the five-eight list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.146.108 (talk) 10:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Because he won the golden boot award, the clive churchil medal and all but one of his premierships at fullback.--Jeff79 (talk) 11:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pivot

Australian match commentators and media sometimes refer to either the five-eighth or halfback as the 'pivot'. I'm not sure which one it is. I think it might be the halfback. This might be worth a quick mention in the relevant section.--Jeff79 23:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a term in use in the UK but I believe it to be the five-eighth as the term means "fly half" in union.GordyB 08:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Just read some news articles that used it with regard to five-eighth. I'm going to insert a mention.--Jeff79 05:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags and representation

I was think of adding each player's represntative rugby league in but I was thinking more along the lines of how it is done in rugby union positions. The problem I have with the flags is that the Aussie and Kiwi flags are difficult to tell apart when full-sized and impossible when minaturised. I also think whether a player played for Queensland or New South Wales is worth noting (though Yorkshire or Lancashire probably isn't).

With British players, it gets complex Iestyn Harris has a British flag while Billy Boston has a Welsh one. I am pretty sure that both players played for both Wales and Great Britain. I haven't checked the lists thoroughly but it is possible that some of the players with an England flag next to them may never have played for England (because Great Britain would have been the only option back then).

I suggest a format like this:-

Iestyn Harris (Wales and Great Britain).GordyB 11:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I put the flags in more to show where a player is from. I always avoid all the crap that goes with trying to show who they represent (through the grandfather rule or whatever, which I find rather farcical). I put a British flag next to Harris because it wasn't clear. I guess citizenship doesn't change between Wales/England/etc. If a player grew up in Scotland but represented Great Britain, I'd definitely put a Scottish flag next to his name to show that sometimes people from Scotland become famous rugby league players. If Hazem El Masri were on the list, I'd put a Lebanese flag icon, because that's where he's from. Conversely, if Kevin Campion were on the list, I would not put an Irish flag next to his name. That's really the spirit in which I added them. Also, from a purely aesthetic point of view, I think the flags add a nice bit of colour. I think the rugby union page doesn't look as good. If someone wants to know more about which teams the players represented they can click on them. The Australian and New Zealand flags are easy to tell apart. The Australian has a white star under the Union Flag Flag of Australia but the New Zealand doesn't Flag of New Zealand (granted it's a little harder to spot when they're small like that).--Jeff79 18:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Iestyn grew up in England but represented Wales (his family being Welsh). That's the trouble with this, being consistant with El Mazri would require you to an England flag there. Perhaps you should scrap the Welsh and England flags and just use British ones.GordyB 19:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Reciever

Does this usually refer to the halfback? I've never been really sure about it. I hear it mentioned alot in commentary. My guess is it's the player that recieves the ball from the dummy-half most frequently. I had a feeling that might be the halfback. If this could be confirmed it should be mentioned in this article and/or Playing rugby league.--Jeff79 20:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Deleted original reply because it was wrong. First receiver is whoever the dummy half passes to, second reciever is whoever gets it next.GordyB 10:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Do you know if it's typically the halfback?--Jeff79 19:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
In a perfect world, scrum half / halfback should be first reciever and the stand-off / 5/8s the second receiver.GordyB 19:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Quite frequently the first reciever will be a forward taking a hit-up early in the tackle count. But I think when people talk about first reciever it's later in the tackle count. I had a feeling it was typically the halfback, but I thought with the five-eight being nicknamed the pivot, that it would make sense for him to be first reciever too, as the direction of the attack "pivots" on whether he decides to go left or right. Maybe these days both of "the halves" could be referred to as 'pivot' and/or 'first reciever'. I guess it's hard to be concluisve.--Jeff79 19:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Just Thought I'd add my discussion on this - 1st receiver isn't a 'typical', 'numbered' position in Rugby League, mainly because ANY player could theoretically be the first receiver. In most sides it is the Halfback, but most sides play 'sides' nowadays with the halfback on one side of the ruck, and 5/8 on the other acting as 1st receivers. In some cases it might be the lock or fullback (Jim Dymock and Jason Smith are two notable locks who were good first receivers.) Also - isn't it receiver instead of reciever? i before the e except after c? 124.188.129.48 15:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Lets try this again, sorry about the above unsigned post.Weststigersbob 15:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable players

Since people keep adding to / altering the list of notable players I propose simply noting which players are in the UK and Australian hall of honours. This has two advantages a) it is NPOV b) it will make the list easier to maintain rugby union positions uses this system and is more easily maintained. Any thoughts / objections?GordyB 12:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)