Talk:Rugby league in France
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Cvene 64, much of the stuff you deleted is alreading backed up in the sources from the BBC and the French pages. Please do not vandalise the page again. If you wish to see claims justified than I suggest you add the [citation needed] to the problematic facts because it avoids alot of issues. Cheers --Ehinger222 03:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore could you explain what relevant facts you finding hard to believe because I am more than willing to direct you to the sites. --Ehinger222 04:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] contentious article
the article quoted by the sockfarm is (roughly, I only did a couple of years of French at Uni and that was some years ago now) translated as follows:
"Dear Mr,
I received your letter on the 13th September, so I thank you.
You can have read in effect that the rugby league is interested in German sport. But any extra information is at least premature.
In effect, I am very frequently in contact here with Lieutenant Meser, who is the official representative to Paris of Messrs Von Schammer and Osten, those who have affirmed to me that nothing from Germany stops organisation of sport, less still the question of a match between France and Germany.
The information that I give you today cannot be more recent, as it was given to me this morning by Lieutenant Meser.
Best wishes,
Maurice Blein"
as such, and unless someone has a better translation that trumps mine, I'm deleting the highly contentious and otherwise unsupported passage that relies on it. Dibo T | C 05:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- I'm continuing to delete sections referenced inadequately until I see good reason not to. I note your complaint about my translation, and I also note that you have not offered one of your own.
- As to the references, they are confused and unclear, especially with the french language references - how are other editors supposed to know what bit they're looking at, and what supports what claim? Dibo T | C 04:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- The French language sites is obviously the best resource on rugby league in France. You should assume good faith. As for the BBC source, go to http://rl1908.com/Rugby-League-News/vichy.htm. You will see that that is sourced on the page from [1]. The reference is already currently present in the article, so to continue to delete it, after being shown, may well be interpreted as vandalism. I too, can read French, indeed I expect it as a pre-resiquite for adding sources in French. The sources are in fact accurate to what they pertain to. I think your problem is interpreting what they pertain to. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 06:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- C'est au sommet de cette domination que le conflit mondial éclata et brisa définitivement cet élan . l'autre rugby allait prendre une " drôle " de revanche.
- The French language sites is obviously the best resource on rugby league in France. You should assume good faith. As for the BBC source, go to http://rl1908.com/Rugby-League-News/vichy.htm. You will see that that is sourced on the page from [1]. The reference is already currently present in the article, so to continue to delete it, after being shown, may well be interpreted as vandalism. I too, can read French, indeed I expect it as a pre-resiquite for adding sources in French. The sources are in fact accurate to what they pertain to. I think your problem is interpreting what they pertain to. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 06:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Hitler et les nazis envahirent la France. Le maréchal Pétain se fit attribuer les pleins pouvoir et signa la capitulation. En zone libre comme en zone occupée c'est l époque honteuse de la collaboration et du régime de Vichy au sud. Les Nazis avaient installé un ministère de la Famille et de la Jeunesse qui contrôlait le sport par l'intermédiaire du Commissariat Général à l'Education Générale et Sportive dirigé par jean Borotra l'ancien champion de Tennis et son ami basque Jean Ybarnégaray . sous ses ordres exerçait le colonel joseph Pascot, ancien joueur quinziste des années 20. En accord avec les nazis ces gens là profitèrent du régime de Vichy et de sa " pseudo politique de moralisation " pour interdire le rugby à 13.les raisons invoquées étaient les liens de sympathie de la Ligue Treiziste avec les Britanniques et le fait du professionnalisme avoué. La FFR se trouvait quand à elle dédouanée, malgré son amateurisme sans cesse bafoué qui permettait souvent à ses joueurs de gagner plus d'argent que les " professionnels " treizistes, par ses rencontres internationales régulières avec l'Allemagne Nazie. La raison officielle de cet acharnement contre le Treize était due à ses origines de sport prolétaire qui, en tant qu' organisation regroupant des pratiquants issus du monde du travail, représentait à cette époque une menace potentiel pour le régime en place. L'autre rugby quant à lui profita de " complicités internes ". Malgré tous les efforts déployés par le docteur Simon Bompunt en particulier La Ligue Française de Rugby à 13 fut dissoute par le décret n° 5285 du 19/12/1941. Le 13 était rayé de la carte. Son siége rue Drouot à Paris à même été détruit par les Nazis, les archives brûlées et des officiels emprisonnés. C'est beaucoup plus sereinement que la FFR traversa cette période noire de l'histoire. La guerre ayant éffacé les discordes avec les anglo-saxons, elle retrouva sa place dans le tournoi des 5 Nations.
This is from the source[2] that you seemed to think can just be ignored in your effort to cover up Nazi crimes; You need to stop deleting sources and content without actually checking them. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 06:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Furthermore, you make references and allusions to things I do not understand. I have never written anything about places being firebombed etc. I am sure that you can check the record if you dispute this which by the way have nothing to do with this. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 06:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Google translation: Hitler and the Nazis invaded France. The Pétain marshal was made allot the full powers and signed the capitulation. In free zone as in occupied zone it is L ashamed time of the collaboration and the mode of Vichy in the south. The Nazis had installed a ministry for the Family and Youth which controlled the sport via the Police station General with General and Sporting Education directed by Jean Borotra the former champion of Tennis and his Basque friend Jean Ybarnégaray. under his orders exerted colonel Joseph Pascot, former player quinzist of the Twenties. In agreement with the Nazis these people there benefitted from the mode of Vichy and of its “pseudo policy of raising the moral standard” to prohibit Rugby with 13.les called upon reasons were the bonds of sympathy of the Treiziste League with the British and the fact of acknowledged professionalism. The FFR was when with it cleared, in spite of its amateurism unceasingly ridiculed which often made it possible its players to earn more money than the “professionals” treizists, by its regular international meetings with the Nazi Germany. The official reason of this eagerness against the Thirteen was due to its origins of proletarian sport which, as an organization gathering of the practise resulting from the world of work, represented at that time a threat potential for the mode in place. Other Rugby as for him benefitted from “internal complicities”. Despite everything the efforts made by Doctor Simon Bompunt in particular the French League of Rugby to 13 was dissolved by the decree n° 5285 of the 19/12/1941. The 13 were striped chart. Its siége street Drouot in Paris at same summer destroyed by the Nazis, the files burned and of official imprisoned. It is much peacefully than the FFR crossed this black period of the history. The war having éffacé the discords with the Anglo-Saxons, it found his place in the tournament of the 5 Nations.
- Babel Fish Translation:Hitler and the Nazis invaded France. The Pétain marshal was made allot the full powers and signed the capitulation. In free zone as in occupied zone it is L ashamed time of the collaboration and the mode of Vichy in the south. The Nazis had installed a ministry for the Family and Youth which controlled the sport by the intermediary of the General Police station to General and Sporting Education directed by Jean Borotra the former champion of Tennis and his Basque friend Jean Ybarnégaray. under his orders exerted colonel Joseph Pascot, former player quinzist of the Twenties. In agreement with the Nazis these people there benefitted from the mode of Vichy and of its "pseudo policy of raising the moral standard" to prohibit Rugby with 13.les called upon reasons were the bonds of sympathy of the Treiziste League with the British and the fact of acknowledged professionalism. The FFR was when with it cleared, in spite of its amateurism unceasingly ridiculed which often made it possible to its players to earn more money than the "professionals" treizists, by its regular international meetings with the Nazi Germany. The official reason of this eagerness against the Thirteen was due to its origins of proletarian sport which, as an organization gathering of the practise resulting from the world of work, represented at that time a threat potential for the mode in place. Other Rugby as for him benefitted from "internal complicities". Despite everything the efforts made by Doctor Simon Bompunt in particular the French League of Rugby to 13 was dissolved by the decree n° 5285 of the 19/12/1941. The 13 were striped chart. Its siége street Drouot in Paris at same summer destroyed by the Nazis, the files burned and of official imprisoned. It is much peacefully than the FFR crossed this black period of the history. The war having éffacé the discords with the Anglo-Saxons, it found his place in the tournament of the 5 Nations.
- --It seems that they use the same translation software --Philip Baird Shearer 09:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- You want to maybe translate that, and indicate which parts support the points you want to add? Otherwise how is anybody else without such a fantastic grasp of French supposed to know what they say? BTW - you still haven't said what was wrong with my translation of the previous reference, which was supposed to say so much more than it actually did. And seriously, accusing me of 'effort to cover up Nazi crimes' is completely juvenile. Dibo T | C 07:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I added citecheck tags, as i presently have no confidence that the references show what they are purported to, and i'm not going to translate articles myself for the sake of content i'd be just as happy to see left out in the absence of english language source material. It's not fair to the editing community as a whole to say 'read this article in another language or don't touch' Dibo T | C 07:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe reading through Philip Dines book may help you stop being pointlessly contentious. [3] --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 07:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Just realised there was only one page in that link, [4] has a paraphrase of what Dine says. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 07:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- If I have to read a book, then isn't that just a little obscure? Aren't we doing research - synthesising viewpoints into a conclusion - in the process? Dibo T | C 10:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- ...and you still haven't translated the passages in French. Dibo T | C 10:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- You said you could read French, what is the point of a translation? --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 11:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- A book is a valid reference. You asked for a reference. You now have one. What more do you want?GordyB 15:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- References that actually support the text would be nice. The reference I translated above (and have now removed from the article) had nothing to do with the claims made. Anyone can put a web link next to a piece of text, but that's not referencing, that's fudging. Dibo T | C 00:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Well this discussion looks familiar - see Talk:Football (word)#Rugby league as football in England... Dibo T | C 01:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually the original reference was valid. As alluded to by other articles presented here. Meser was the Nazi sports commander and Blein was a French journalist that was heavily involved in rugby league football. This is not original research or interpretation of the document, it is the research and interpretation of the document by other sports historians. You did not assume good faith, vandalised the BBC quote and generally have not worked towards consensus. Now you are throwing insinuations of sockpuppetting around. Do a checkuser between me and Londonbenkielty if it satisfies you, but what that talk page also shows is that you continually disrupt rugby league football pages to pursue an anti-football agenda. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 06:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Look here chuckles, refusing to accept edits is not working towards consensus. I'm not simply vandalising, I'm trying to ensure that nothing goes in there that is not supported by references. As was alluded to in the other talk page by Phillip Baird Shearer you need to provide a page reference to the book.
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- References that actually support the text would be nice. The reference I translated above (and have now removed from the article) had nothing to do with the claims made. Anyone can put a web link next to a piece of text, but that's not referencing, that's fudging. Dibo T | C 00:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- ...and you still haven't translated the passages in French. Dibo T | C 10:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- If I have to read a book, then isn't that just a little obscure? Aren't we doing research - synthesising viewpoints into a conclusion - in the process? Dibo T | C 10:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
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- You can't just say 'this book justifies any and all claims I want to make'. You also cannot provide non-english sources without any credible translation of your own and expect them to be taken seriously.
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- The letter above I translated and showed it's got nothing to do with what you say it does. You haven't refuted that, you just say "I'm right, you're wrong". That's not working towards consensus. That's not improving the article. That's barrow pushing, pure and simple. Dibo T | C 07:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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- See WP:CITE#Full citations "Full citations for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers." --Philip Baird Shearer 09:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- [5] states the book ISBN number and name, publisher etc. Dine, Philip. French rugby football: a cultural history. Oxford: Berg, 2001 ISBN 1 85973 327 1. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 11:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- See WP:CITE#Full citations "Full citations for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers." --Philip Baird Shearer 09:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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- The sentence "Largely because of rugby league's professionalism and links to the northern league in the UK, other sports were promoted in its place and the playing of the game was forbidden." is a very controversial statement and as such the person making the point should be credited with it: "Fu Bar has suggested that largely because....". This is because the sentence does not stand up to a simple analysis. If it was because of contacts with the enemy, why was all rugby not banned? After all it was Rugby Union that had an established international fixture list not Rugby League. There were no first class nation Rugby Union team was available to play -- as it is highly unlikely that the IRFU would have considered forming a team from just citizens of the Republic and all the others in nations were Allied against Germany. It is more likely that the influential members of an authoritarian Vichy government, disliked Rugby League as much as the RFU did and unlike the old farts of the RFU they were in a position to enforce a ban. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- League was a working-class sport and had connections to the pre-war socialist government whereas union had connections to more conservative right-wing organisations. The ban was to do with the Germans / Vichy suppressing any opposition to their occupation.GordyB 11:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well alot has been made of the fact that an African represented Great Britain in 1935 by some historians. To put this into context, although there had been a black representative in an international English union team(1905, and he consequently played league after that), it did not happen again until the 70s due to "racial issues". Also, soccer in its usual racist manner did not have a black national representative until the 70s(which probably occurred along with usual liberal media fanfare that accompanies soccer). So therefore in an era of racial nationalism (even Bertrand Russell had some racial views on this at the time), emerging fascism and Nazism, a black man playing for an English national football team may have had some impact on the political pshyche at the time, some historians have speculated. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 11:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- According to my source the first black man to play rugby league for GB was in 1947. There were very few black sportsmen back then because the UK was 99.9% white until after WW2.GordyB 17:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well alot has been made of the fact that an African represented Great Britain in 1935 by some historians. To put this into context, although there had been a black representative in an international English union team(1905, and he consequently played league after that), it did not happen again until the 70s due to "racial issues". Also, soccer in its usual racist manner did not have a black national representative until the 70s(which probably occurred along with usual liberal media fanfare that accompanies soccer). So therefore in an era of racial nationalism (even Bertrand Russell had some racial views on this at the time), emerging fascism and Nazism, a black man playing for an English national football team may have had some impact on the political pshyche at the time, some historians have speculated. --Elvisandhismagicpelvis 11:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- League was a working-class sport and had connections to the pre-war socialist government whereas union had connections to more conservative right-wing organisations. The ban was to do with the Germans / Vichy suppressing any opposition to their occupation.GordyB 11:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- The sentence "Largely because of rugby league's professionalism and links to the northern league in the UK, other sports were promoted in its place and the playing of the game was forbidden." is a very controversial statement and as such the person making the point should be credited with it: "Fu Bar has suggested that largely because....". This is because the sentence does not stand up to a simple analysis. If it was because of contacts with the enemy, why was all rugby not banned? After all it was Rugby Union that had an established international fixture list not Rugby League. There were no first class nation Rugby Union team was available to play -- as it is highly unlikely that the IRFU would have considered forming a team from just citizens of the Republic and all the others in nations were Allied against Germany. It is more likely that the influential members of an authoritarian Vichy government, disliked Rugby League as much as the RFU did and unlike the old farts of the RFU they were in a position to enforce a ban. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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There's nothing in that about the first black man to play rugby league for GB. James Peters was treated badly but the RFL were not above such behaviour, Billy Boston was left out of a tour of South Africa at the request of the South Africans because he was of mixed race.[6] GordyB 10:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
