Talk:Rugby League Challenge Cup

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The competition is called the Challenge Cup or the some sponsor Challenge Cup and has been so for over 100 years.

Also Challenge Cup is a redirect page to Rugby League Challenge Cup anyway, so I don't think it should be too much hassle to move it. Having the page the way it is at the moment would be like naming a page the Football (soccer) Premier League rather than the Premier League or the American Football National Football League rather than simply the National Football League.

Tiburon 08:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It might be better off as a dismbiguation page, there are probably dozens of competitions also known as the Challenge Cup. Off the top of my head, the EDF Energy Cup which used to be the equivalent of the league competition is sometimes called the Challenge Cup and there is also theEuropean Challenge Cup. This is probably why it was called Challenge Cup (rugby) in the beginning.GordyB 08:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Granted that is true though I believe this is the most notable one still in existance or that has ever been in existance since its creation in 1896 just looking at the list at Challenge Cup (disambiguation). The other notable one is obviously the European Challenge Cup but that is officially known as the European Challenge Cup not the Challenge Cup specifically. There is also dozens of leagues called the Premier League (see List of professional sports leagues) but the English Premier League because of it's notability as the most famous one has the page Premier League to itself and a link to a disambig. page on the top of it which is what I am proposing happens here, pretty much currently like it is anyway. Tiburon 09:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Now that I look there is in fact a Challenge Cup (disambiguation) page, I suggest we move that to Challenge Cup and if this page needs renaming then Carnegie Challenge Cup would be my suggestion.GordyB 09:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I would have to disagree again see my argument with the Premier League even when it was called the Barclays Premier League its page was always simply 'Premier League'. Not a big fan of naming it the Carnegie Challenge Cup as last year it was the Powergen Challenge Cup and from 1896 until sometime in 1990 something it was simply the Challenge Cup and people still refer to it as the Challenge Cup to this day. No one calls the National Rugby League the Telstra Premiership National Rugby League even though it is sponsered under that name. Tiburon 09:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I know but where there disambiguation problems, a sponsors name or the name of the sport have been used to help disambiguate articles. The rugby union Rugby Union Tri Nations is never called such by anybody but we could not get a consensus to have it moved to simply Tri Nations because of the league tournament of a similar name.GordyB 09:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

But yet again that's different as both those competitions are current, notable and popular. And while Tri Nations may usually mean Union in NZ & S.Africa in Aus. & England it would usually refer to League, there is no similar case here as no other competition of similar notability shares exactly the same name as Challenge Cup. Tiburon 13:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• Move it to Challenge Cup (rugby league), and make Challenge Cup the disambiguation page. 'Challenge Cup' is a pretty general term, and could refer to any number of competitions. The 'Premier League' almost always refers to the FA league, but thats not the same with the Challenge Cup and rugby league Goldman07 10:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Challenge Cup may be a pretty general term but so is Premier League and while Premier League almost always refers to the FA league I would say that the same applies to the Challenge Cup as it almost always refers to the rugby league version. Tiburon 13:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I googled it, this is not the case [1].GordyB 13:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

So google is what we are following now? So a junior amateur hockey league www.challengecup.com I guess should be the Challenge Cup article then? You can't tell me that this is more notable that the rugby league version? Just because the administators over at the Rugby Football League are incompetent and haven't registered an official site for the rugby league version doesn't make it any less important or notable. Tiburon 13:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Also if google is a key to go on then, any chance you could help get the current State of Origin page moved to State of Origin (concept) and Rugby League State of Origin moved to State of Origin in it's place? Tiburon 14:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

After just checking the State of Origin talk pages you make an argument there backing me up on this page with (regarding SOO): Leave it as it is. This article about the idea of SOO and others about the specific SOO played in each country / sport. SOO in rugby league didn't start until 1980 (according to RL article). Prior to this state teams did compete but qualification was down to residency rather than origin, so they weren't SOO.GordyB 13:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC) . So what does it come down to??? History? Original creation? Google? Tiburon 14:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It comes down to what people are likely to be looking for for example most people who type in "football" are likely to be looking for either soccer or American football but a significant minority will be looking for Gaelic football, rugby league or Australian rules football etc which is why the football article looks the way it is. American football is actually called simply "football" by the NFL and many have tried to use this as a basis for saying that US football should have the football article by rights. I disagree.

The state of origin quote is taken out of context. IIRC I was replying to a claim that the rugby league played origin before Aussie rules (which it did not). The point is that whilst the league orgin series gets better TV rating the Aussie rules version is significant which is why there is a generic article under State of Origin.

Challenge Cup is too generic a title for one article to have the right to that name. Of the google search I linked to, less than half the hits were for the league tournament.GordyB 14:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the first part of your statement and that is further proof for State of Origin as 99.9% of people who would do a search for it would be looking for Rugby League State of Origin but that's for another discussion.

Second part I disagree with; the AFL version no longer exists, the (rugby league) State of Origin is one of the top tier events in the Australian sporting calendar each year and prob. the top on the east coast (where over half of AUS pop. resides). I would say (and i'm sure the vast majority would agree) that anyone doing a search on google or anywhere for State of Origin would be looking for the rugby league version and that's why it should have that page. Using your google method a search for "state of origin" returns with the top 10 results being RL; 18/20 RL and the first AFL one on the third page and being a petition to bring back the AFL SOO.

On Challenge Cup I understand it being a generic idea and while I still would like it moved as I believe it still to be the most notable & historic Challenge Cup I can understand your points on maybe leaving it or running with a disambig. page Tiburon 14:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - I oppose the move, I think the current situation where is goes to a disambiguation page is the best way to go. The name "Challenge Cup" is simply to common for a consensus to ever be reached over what the primary article should be - so having it redirect to the disambiguation page seems very sensible. - Shudda ^talk 04:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - as per Shudda..Disambiguation is better then moving the page or there might be future disputes on why the use of the word(Challenge Cup) is reserved for rugby....--Cometstyles 11:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - there are currently six other tournaments listed on the disambiguation page some of which are fairly significant.GordyB 22:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The move to this name was ill advised in my opinion since the old article, Challenge Cup (rugby), was correctly called the Challenge Cup. Since the sponsor can change, and with it the name of this article, the more common and generic name should be used. So after this discussion, the article should be moved back to Challenge Cup (rugby) or to Challenge Cup (Rugby League). Vegaswikian 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.