Talk:Rudi (Swami Rudrananda)
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[edit] Adi Da & Rudi
I recently added what seemed like a fairly straightforward paragraph about Adi Da Samraj's years as one of Rudi's devotees. It was removed on the grounds that the Adi Da "renounced" Rudi, which seems odd given that the Adi Da frequently speaks about how Rudi was his first guru (see: the Adi Da's autobiography and many of his other writings and discourses.) Timothy Horrigan (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- You make a reasonable point. I've gone ahead and reinstated the sentence.TheRingess (talk) 02:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have undone the change once again. Adi Da indeed renounced Rudi and turned to Muktananda for help instead. In "The Kundalini Experience", Dr. Lee Sannella (a personal friend of mine while he was alive, and follower of Adi Da) wrote, "Finding that Rudi's yoga contradicted his (Adi Da's) own intuition that the spiritual process is found in self-discipline rather than self-surrender, Adi Da turned to Muktananda for help.", p.125. Additionally, if one is to mention a former student in the body of Rudi's biography, then all of Rudi's thousands of students - or at least his current senior teachers - should be mentioned as well, and this would make for a most unwieldy biography. If Adi Da is to be mentioned at all, I would perhaps propose a new section called "See also" and then add Adi Da's name as a pointer off to his own biography.--Cminard (talk) 20:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- An example of the "See also" use can be found in the Bhagawan Nityananda biography (Rudi's guru). Rather than wedge in information about Rudi into Bhagawan Nityananda's personal biography, I chose instead to list Rudi's entry in the "See also" category. --Cminard (talk) 22:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also a good point. There could be a see also section or a section for notable students. Either way there does need to be references for all teachers/students mentioned. Those mentioned should probably fit Wikipedia's guidelines for biographical notability, that way you don't have to mention the thousands of students/teachers, only those who qualify for their own articles.TheRingess (talk) 23:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Nityananda Institute controversy
In researching the material for Rudi’s Wikipedia biography entry, I came across evidence regarding the topic of Rudi’s designated teachers and issue of successorship. Rudi passed away at age 45 in a small plane crash. According to several sources, there was an ensuing struggle between many of Rudi’s students. This note is an attempt to document the information that appears in several books written by his direct students regarding this topic.
The primary reason for doing this is to show that the Nityananda Institute does not have exclusive rights to Rudi’s teachings. Because of this reason, references to the Nityananda Institute should not appear in Rudi’s entry. The director of the Institute, Michael Shoemaker, has been listed in the section reserved for Rudi’s teachers, and the link for his entry redirects to the Institute – an organization that he founded after Rudi’s passing. Rudra Press is the publishing arm of the Nityananda Institute.
Following are quotes from various publications written by Rudi’s senior students regarding the issue of teachers and successorship. These students were with Rudi for the following number of years each: John Mann - 14 years, Stuart Perrin - 6 years, and Michael Shoemaker - 2 years. It should be noted that the book by John Mann was published by the Nityananda Institute in 1987. This book clearly states that several teachers of the work were appointed by Rudi before Michael Shoemaker met Rudi in 1971. This book is now out of print.
From: Mann, John. Rudi: 14 Years With My Teacher. Rudra Press, 1987.
"In 1966, Rudi said to me, “Find a student and start teaching.” My first class, which was the culmination of eight years with Rudi, was given in a small rented room. … In 1970, Rudi began to allow other people to teach his work in New York City and Big Indian. On Labor Day, 1971, Rudi said, “It is a great joy for me to see others able to take over the work I have done, so that I am free to walk in the woods or sit by the stream. Most teachers hold on to their situation as long as possible."
From: Rudi: In His Own Words. Rudra Press, 1990. - from the Foreward by Swami Chetananda:
"Although there are several people around the country who claim to have Rudi’s permission to teach, the only ones still teaching who had his blessing to do so are myself and Stewart Perin in New York. I am therefore sometimes appalled at the number of people who met Rudi once or twice and yet claim to have received his permission to teach."
From: Rudi: Entering Infinity. Rudra Press, 1994. – from the Editor’s note by Cheryl Berling Rosen:
"While Rudi was alive, he designated two people to teach under him: Swami Chetananda, now in Portland, Oregon, and Stuart Perrin, now in New York. Before his passing, Rudi wrote a letter in which he assigned Swami Chetananda the task of carrying on his work and taking over the direction of the ashrams he had established. Even now, any authorized teacher of Rudi’s work must be someone directly connected with either Swamiji or with Stuart. Anyone else who claims to be a teacher trained by Rudi is self-proclaimed."
From: Perrin, Stuart. A Deeper Surrender. Hampton Roads, 2001.
"Rudi never passed on his mantle, nor did he speak about successors, future Rudi’s, institutions, Rudra lineages, or dogmatic approaches to his work. I’ve heard disciples declare, “I’m the new Rudi! I’ve got written proof saying I’m the successor. I’ve inherited the throne.” …There’s no throne! There’s the simple double breathing exercise that Rudi left us. Use it and get to God."
--Cminard (talk) 08:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Be that as it may, this talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not for discussing controversies. How could the above material be used to improve the article?TheRingess (talk) 18:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Many articles in Wikipedia are challenged directly on the article page itself, and that seems to detract from the article. Given that this is a known outstanding conflict that could potentially turn into a challenge at a future point, I chose to handle the situation in this manner - off the main page of the article - and to provide the documentation in advance, so that you and/or another moderator/editor would know more about the situation (without the need to purchase the books and do the research) and therefore be able to address it from a more informed position. Regarding your immediate question, I was also taking this opportunity to more fully address the reason why I deleted your pointer to the Nityananda Institute when you chose to restructure the External Links section and add it to the article during your first edit pass. --Cminard (talk) 22:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Let's not worry so much about what may or may not happen. Anyone can edit any article on Wikipedia as long as their edits conform to Wikipedia's core content policies. There will be no conflict if future editors keep those policies in mind. Happy editing.TheRingess (talk) 22:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Many articles in Wikipedia are challenged directly on the article page itself, and that seems to detract from the article. Given that this is a known outstanding conflict that could potentially turn into a challenge at a future point, I chose to handle the situation in this manner - off the main page of the article - and to provide the documentation in advance, so that you and/or another moderator/editor would know more about the situation (without the need to purchase the books and do the research) and therefore be able to address it from a more informed position. Regarding your immediate question, I was also taking this opportunity to more fully address the reason why I deleted your pointer to the Nityananda Institute when you chose to restructure the External Links section and add it to the article during your first edit pass. --Cminard (talk) 22:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] POV
I have added a POV tag to the article because it is, by and large, written from the point of view of someone who accepts the claims made. For example, under "Middle Years" is the statement "At age 20, Albert...experienced a deep spiritual awakening..." This statement accepts the claims made, which is not NPOV. This is pretty characteristic of the article. The author(s) should go through it and make it NPOV. Articles can be nominated for deletion over problems like this.
Sardaka (talk) 10:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- To the moderator - the author who entered this comment works actively on the Shree Muktananda Ashram article.--Cminard (talk) 15:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- As a moderator has not addressed this, I have added quotes to the statement in question and removed the POV tag, as this statement - along with all other similar statements - comes directly from Rudi's autobiographical material. Appropriate references have been provided for all statements in this article.--Cminard (talk) 00:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
