Talk:Roy Cohn

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New York appellate judge and state supreme court are different things; made it just "judge" in absence of information on which applies. Vicki Rosenzweig 00:51, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Does anyone know what he got his minor in before going to law school?

___________________

This article made no attempt at being neutral. I edited subjective evaluations of politics. Interchangable throwing around of "right-wing" and "conservative" were also inappropriate. Moreover, I would hardly describe his client list as exclusively conservative. I made improvements as I could while leaving the facts of the story in (which can be verified at a later time). Also, bear in mind that it is ethically appropriate for an attorney to zealously represent his or her client. 24 Oct 2005 -Anon

I've reverted most, but not all, of your edits. Besides my specific disagreements (see below), it's kind of irritating that you posted a dozen edits in a row from an anonymous IP with no edit summaries; that makes it hard for other editors to track changes to the article. Please consider getting a username, and please use edit summaries to explain what you're doing.

• "Widely unpopular" -> "derided by political opponents": your edit actually adds more POV, by implying that ill will toward Cohn could only come from political rivalry. Even at the height of his political and professional successes, I don't think anyone would describe Cohn as a popular man. The rest of the sentence makes it clear that this is being mentioned simply as an ironic contrast with his undeniable influence and effectiveness.
• "...was known to be relentlessly homophobic..." etc.: good grief yes, that certainly was uncalled for; delete.
• "Cohn, though chosen in part to avoid accusations..." -> "sometimes thought chosen": fair enough, though it's a very common interpretation, but by removing the "though" you removed the point of the sentence: that it was somewhat surprising for McCarthy to give him free rein, if he was a token appointment. But:
• "(the American Communist Party had a proportionally high number of Jewish members)": what on earth are you getting at here? The targets of McCarthy and Cohn were hardly limited to card-carrying Communist Party members.
• "and the Archdiocese of New York": can't think why you deleted this. It's not POV, it's an example of the wide variety of clients Cohn represented. By removing it, you actually slanted the list further in the direction of money and sleaze.
• "Though his closeted sexuality was far from unusual at the time, it was in extreme contradiction with his public life in right-wing politics" -> "it was peceived [sic] by some as a contradiction with his public life in politics": Oh, for goodness' sake. His politics were right-wing by any reasonable definition; that's not a pejorative unless you make it one. And the contradiction is obvious; it's not that right-wingers can't be gay, it's that Cohn campaigned actively against gay rights and vehemently denied that he was gay. That is not up for debate.
• "Cohn and McCarthy (whose own sexuality was the subject of rumors) targeted many government officials and cultural figures not only for Communist sympathies but for homosexual tendencies" -> "Cohn and McCarthy allegedly targeted many government officials and cultural figures": Well, it is true that some of McCarthy's critics tried to smear him through sexual innuendo (I can find references if you'd like) and it's an interesting footnote to Cohn's story; but it's not essential, so I'll leave it out. But the "allegedly" is just a weasel word; McCarthy's attacks on "perverts" as supposed allies of Communists are a matter of record.
• "and lent his support to anti-gay political campaigns" deleted: That's not POV, it's fact, and relevant as explained above. The very next sentence provides an example.
• "the Venona Project, which offered evidence that there indeed were Communists in the U.S. government" -> "which confirmed that there were indeed hundreds of Communists": As you are well aware, there is significant controversy both on and off WP about what exactly is "confirmed" by the VENONA papers. The place for that debate is in the Venona article; adding strong claims of fact in related articles like this one is POV. I'll keep "offered evidence", but add the "hundreds" if that'll make you feel better. ←Hob 04:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Hob, Venona is disputed by the same people who refuse to believe there were Communists in govt., which we know that there were Communists in govt. No scholarly work that I know of exists that questions Venona. Jtpaladin 15:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Cohn & Schine 2 Sources 3 "alleged Communists"? 4 Deletions

[edit] Cohn & Schine

Wikipikiliki - I removed your last addition; here's why:

Cohn and Schine were "a study in contrasts," notes David M. Oshinsky in his book A Conspiracy So Immense. "Cohn was short, dark, intense, and abrasive; Schine was tall, fair, frivolous, and complacent." According to some observers, it was Schine who was the dominant influence.

This personality material is interesting, but unverifiable and unencyclopedic.

Despite Cohn’s intellectual brilliance, Schine was fond of humiliating Cohn in front of strangers and acting as if Cohn was his inferior.

"Brilliance" and "fond of" are inappropriate POV, and "acting as if Cohn was his inferior" is too vague.

Nicholas von Hoffman, one of Cohn’s biographers, reports that people who saw Cohn and Schine close up doubted that they were lovers or that Schine was gay. People who observed them at a distance assumed they were just two playboys. Cohn, in private conversation with friends, denied any intimate involvement with Schine.

How do we know about his private conversation with friends? It's not clear if you're attributing this to Hoffman or what. There's too much detail here - it would be enough to add a source (Hoffman or whoever) to the previous passage on the rumors about Cohn and Schine. Right now that passage says the rumors were "entirely unsubstantiated and improbable" but doesn't say why. ←Hob 17:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Not quite sure why you thought the additional material was unworthy--it all came from other sources written in detail on the topic and is all very relevant to the subject matter. Too much detail? Is that really something to avoid in an encyclopedia? While some of this may be "unencyclopedic," it's history that has been studied by scholars for more than 50 years. You denying the writings of Hoffman, a Cohn biographer, doesn't make any sense. The whole allegation about Cohn and Schine is conjecture and there has never been one iota of evidence to support it. Cohn being gay was the only factor, but that has little bearing on Schine. What I'm trying to bring to light, which has been lacking in the historical account of Cohn and Schine, is the evidence to support that there was in fact no sexual relationship between Cohn and Schine, and there's plenty out there. Anyone who thinks there was because they heard there was one is simply not aware of the facts. I'm here to provide information and your removal represents a suppression of information by numerous verifiable and published sources. Wikipikiliki 07:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why you think my criticisms of your specific wording are an attempt to suppress evidence, or to prevent you from debunking the rumor. I think my criticisms were very specific and in line with WP guidelines, and you haven't responded to any of them. I understand the point you're trying to make, and I don't disagree; what I have a problem with is the actual text you wrote. Maybe if I restate my complaints as questions, you could try to answer them:

• Why does it matter, in an article about Cohn, that one of his biographers thought Schine was "frivolous and complacent"?
• How can a neutral encyclopedia article state as a fact that Cohn was brilliant, or that Schine "was fond of acting as if Cohn was his inferior"? And, again, what relevance would that have? (It certainly has nothing to do with the rumored relationship; plenty of people who are intimately involved don't treat each other with respect.)
• In the passage that begins with "Nicholas von Hoffman", it is still not clear who's saying any of these things. Is it Hoffman who reports what Cohn said in private conversations with friends? Who are the "people who observed them at a distance"? This may very well all be 100% true, but you've given the reader very little way to see where the information is coming from.

In any case, nothing is being "suppressed"; we're all equals here, and you are perfectly free to add the text back in exactly as it was. And then I, or anyone else, can freely change it. ←Hob 22:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I did not write any of the text I added, but gathered together some relevant snippets from published sources, which were referenced, to make my point by people who wrote books on the subject, however, I'm not going to debate over it or spend time making contributions only to have them reversed by someone with another agenda. Wikipikiliki 11:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't ask you to "debate"; I asked you specific questions which, if you answered them, might point the way to some better wording that can be mutually agreed on. And I don't know what you think my agenda is, but if it bothers you so much to have someone question or delete something you added, you sure won't enjoy working on Wikipedia since that's what we do here. None of this is personal, it's about trying to write the best possible article. ←Hob 03:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Your dialogue wasn't taken personally--I simply don't want to spend any more time on the matter in this forum; I think the article is fine, as is. Wikipikiliki 07:25, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Roy Cohn's father Albert was made a State Supreme Court Justice in the Bronx.This is a Trial court. Later he was appointed to the Appellate Division, First Department, which includes Manhattan and the Bronx. New York State for some historical reason calls its trial court judges of superior jurisdiction Supreme Court Justices. And the highest court in New York, equivalent to any other state;s Supreme Court is called the COurt of Appeals. And oddly enough, the Court of Appeals has "Judges" not Justices.

Roy Cohn was not born in Queens. He was born in Women's Hospital in Manhattan. Nicholas Von Hoffman, Citizen Cohn. p 55.

[edit] Sources

Please place sources on the article page. 08:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "alleged Communists"?

Has anyone bothered to read Venona and/or the Executive Session transcripts. There weren't alleged Communists in govt, they were in govt. Stop with the whitewashing nonsense. Jtpaladin 15:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

What is the authority/citation for the following paragraph? (I have just read a brief biography of McCarthy and did not find any targetting of homosexuals.)

Cohn and McCarthy targeted many government officials and cultural figures not only for suspected Communist sympathies but — in a move of suspected hypocrisy on Cohn's part — also for alleged homosexual tendencies, sometimes using sexual secrets as a blackmail tool to gain informants. The men whose homosexuality Cohn exposed often lost jobs, families, and homes; some committed suicide. It is said that when Cohn learned that one of his victims had killed himself, he celebrated with a bottle of champagne.[citation needed]

David K. Johnson, The Lavender Scare: The Cold War Persecution of Gays and Lesbians in the Federal Government, Chicago, U. Chicago Press (2004), e.g., pp. 15-19. ISBN 0226404811]Fconaway (talk) 09:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions

I have restored the deletions: "During the hearings, a photo of Schine was introduced , and Joseph N. Welch accused Cohn of doctoring the image to show Schine alone with Army Secretary Robert Stevens". I don't think it should be disparaged as "minutia" if it is mentioned in his obituary in the Los Angeles Times. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's one of 3 deletions you reverted. The fact that one obit-writer happened to write about this incident doesn't demonstrate that it's not minutia. It was one of many incidents that happened at the Army-McCarthy hearings. It was far from the most notable incident involving Cohn that happened at those hearings, and the amount of coverage it now gets in this article is disproportionate and just plain silly. However, it's not worth the effort of trying to reason with you, so keep it if it makes you happy. RedSpruce (talk) 17:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)