Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 4

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Contents

NXEC template

Does anyone else have this problem? This is probably related to the discussion above. Anyway, here is a visual representation.

And how can it be sorted? Simply south (talk) 00:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Is the current version what you expect? – PeterCX&Talk 03:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I do not have any problem with the number of stations. I am just wondering why the template seems to be in blocks rather than continuous. Simply south (talk) 12:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It is to do with your displayed font size. Whilst a graphic is in fixed pixels, the text alongside it - both visible and otherwise (eg spaces, line feeds) - are not and if the latter is larger than the former then a gap will appear. Depending on your browser for how to do it, but if you increase and decrease the displayed text size you will see the gaps enlarge or disappear. --AlisonW (talk) 13:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) There were at least 2 problems:
  1. There were little gaps between each collapsible tables. Remove the {{BS-endCollapsible}}s which are immediately followed by {{BS4-startCollapsible}}s to remove the gaps. In fact there was an empty table inside each gap.
  2. All [show] buttons were lost after Glasgow Central. Add a   to that {{BS4-startCollapsible}} between Motherwell and Edinburgh Haymarket solved the problem.
– PeterCX&Talk 13:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I have the same problem in Firefox 2.009. It renders correctly without the gaps in IE7. The problem in question is at East West MRT Line and other lines in the same MRT network pages. There is no collapsible tables. Appreciate if anyone with the technical know-how would help to pinpoint the problem? - oahiyeel talk 11:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
East West Line
BHF
EW23 Clementi
KDSr ABZrd
Ulu Pandan Depot
AKRZo
Boon Lay Way
vSTRa
Peak hour through service
vBHF
EW24, NS1 Jurong East ↔NS Line
HLUECKE vSTRlgflip
North South Line to Marina Bay via Woodlands
STR
East West Line
BHF
EW23 Clementi
KDSr ABZrd
Ulu Pandan Depot
AKRZo
Boon Lay Way
vSTRa
Peak hour through service
vBHF
EW24, NS1 Jurong East para6 para7
HLUECKE vSTRlgflip
North South Line
STR
After some experimenting, I've managed to pinpoint the reason for the gaps. Basically when both parameters 5 and 6 are supplied, the gap would appear. The first example shows the problem, the 2nd example does not, when parameter 6 was removed where parameter 5 is in use. Note that when 6 is supplied without 5, it still renders correctly. Note in the 2nd example, para6 and para7 supplied rendered with differing height, where para 6 is lower. I suspect that is the reason for the gaps. Screen shot here [1]  - oahiyeel talk 12:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, I checked another template that uses BS5, this one: Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway. It has some breaks in Firefox (2.0.0.9), which seem to match the use of the second text paramater.Pyrotec (talk) 13:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I found that the two Singapore examples above and the Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway map smooth and without gaps. IE 6.0.2900 – PeterCX&Talk 13:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
That is also true. Interestingly I mostly use FireFox, and I edited (minor change) the template: Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway on 22 October 2007 and I'm fairly certain it did not have the gaps then. There are only three gaps in the G&PJR template: under Shields junction, and under the station icons at Hillingdon East and Hillingdon West.Pyrotec (talk) 14:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
After some experimenting, the problem seems to be that in firefox, the table height is more than 20px, the size of the pictures. One solution is to increase the picture size to 21px or more. However it has to be done in all of the BS templates for consistency and mixed usage. A size should be decided (21px?) and probably needs consensus to amend all the BS templates  - oahiyeel talk 14:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
However, no size can suit everyone's browser well, and if someone choose to use the largest font size in their brosers, gaps are still showing. Also, if it is really increased to 21px, then some others can also claim that they see gaps and the PX should increase further... Also refer to Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 1#Annoying spaces - a solution. – PeterCX&Talk 15:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree, however, i feel that it should cater to the most basic of browsers, meaning plain jane firefox & IE & others, where the default font sizes are used. And in this case, with the plain jane firefox browser, the gaps are around. Would it actually break any pages if the size was changed to 21px? Because in my opinion it shouldn't, since we are making the image larger, not smaller.  - oahiyeel talk 15:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I've fixed the problem with white lines in Firefox with template:Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway simply by taking out the 2nd text parameter and adding it to the 1st text parameter, in three faulty rows. You can check the history; and I've not changed the browser. So it must be the template handling diagram rows with a used 2nd text parameter slightly differently to diagram rows using only 1st text parameters. At this point, I'm not sure how to proceed.Pyrotec (talk) 16:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
East West Line
BHF
EW23 Clementi
KDSr ABZrd
Ulu Pandan Depot
AKRZo
Boon Lay Way
vSTRa
Peak hour through service
vBHF
EW24, NS1 Jurong East ↔NS Line
HLUECKE vSTRlgflip
North South Line to Marina Bay via Woodlands
STR
Even if that is technically correct, I think grouping the 2 parameters should not be encouraged in real usage, as the second parameter acts as a note to the first parameter. I think we should wait for a consensus to switch to 21px instead, if 21px can eliminate that little gap... – PeterCX&Talk 17:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Added 21px modification above – PeterCX&Talk 17:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
@Pyrotec: It's related to the way firefox handles <small> or <span style="font-size:80%;">. Try adding this to your notes in your template and you'll see what i mean. The gaps will reappear. In the template, the 1st parameter and 2nd parameter are actually in the same table cell, and is equivalent to this: 1st text <span style="font-size:80%;">2nd text</span>  - oahiyeel talk 17:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Autocollapse option

For some articles, eg. Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line, the rail line described is very long, making it very hard to edit the article around it. So I have modified the railway line header template to give you the option to start the box collapsed. To do this, just give the parameter "collapse=yes" to the template - example. By default, the box will not be collapsed, as is currently the norm. Having this option is important if you want to incorporate lines into other objects (eg. infoboxes) or if the box is very big. - 52 Pickup (talk) 17:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes! Yes! Yes! I rewrote my own header to do this, but obviously what you have done is the best answer. Being relatively new I don't want to mess about with existing templates. Thank you - Secondarywaltz (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

ELEV

A user (User:AlisonW) has introduced the use of elevated rail icons, and they were soon being used in quite a number of diagrams. However, I would say that the naming was not correct under those rules in WP:RDT or de:Wikipedia:Formatvorlage Bahnstrecke. That is, elevated variation should not be named using a suffix -ELEV, but (similar to tunnel icons) using a prefix. Consider that even an elevated crossover is needed (ÜST-ELEV: ), it is reasonable to guess that the number of icon IDs would get uncontrollable. I think actions, if needed, should be taken before the usages of them become too high to control, and before other languages of wikipedia start to use them. Comments are welcome. – PeterCX&Talk 13:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

To correct some bad information there, I didn't create the first/base set of elevated icons (xx-ELEV) I just found them as part of the consolidation effort of finding out what icons actually exist so that (a) duplicates can be deleted, (b) miscodes can be identified and corrected, and (c) new icons can be created to fill in the gaps. If you look at User:AlisonW/Rail_Icons you will find the current state of affairs. I have been working through the codes in error correcting them on article pages over all languages so that we all can be consistent in icon naming and usage. --AlisonW (talk) 13:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for any misleading statement. I didn't mean AlisonW was the first one to created those icons, but i meant we should try to rename those icons to use a prefix instead. – PeterCX&Talk 13:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
No problem. As regards using a prefix rather than a suffix, I don't think I agree. The 'elevated' icons are primarily all amended versions of existing icons, just with added elevation (!) and there is already a practice of adding a suffix for certain types of icons, eg. angles and curves. The icons are clearly needed as demonstrated by their use, and it makes it far easier to 'read' a route plan when coding it if it just has the "-ELEV" suffix than to develop a new set of specific prefixes (of which we arguably have too many already!) I'm interested to hear what others think ... --AlisonW (talk) 14:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and just to add to that comment, there are at least four icons per elevated code so the suffix is again clearer to work with. --AlisonW (talk) 14:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I'll put my hand up as the culprit/creator of 'ELEV', and my reason for going with a suffix is exactly as AlisonW has identified: ease and convenience. In regards to "other languages", from what I have seen this template is now quite popular and used in a number of countries (I'm using them in Australia), and the project should take a view that it has grown from being a German template – a result of its success.  SEO75 [talk] 21:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
lol, indeed yes. I've just been creating another batch of elevated codes for junctions and small stations, and it really wouldn't be possible without using a suffix. I've also found that these icons are being used in a whole range of languages, having today amended diagrams in French, German, Hungarian, Chinese, Norwegian, Finnish, Italian and Japanese, not to mention the various 'flavours' of English! Part of my reasoning in consolidating the icons to a single working table was that there is a lot of 're-inventing the wheel' going on, and simlifying what we do have will benefit everyone in the end. --AlisonW (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
My point is "standard" in naming. That is, those icons does NOT follow the naming convention prefix-ID-suffix (xxxXXXxxx), but change to another naming style prefix-ID1-suffix-"-"-ID2 (xxxXXXxxx-ELEV). The rule is stated clearly in English, German Wikipedia, and also Commons:Commons:Railway line template/Policies. Consider that this project is multilingual (as both of you have said), it is important to keep the naming standard, but not amend it and give wikipedians of other language difficulties. And also, ELEV icons are NOT being used in other language yet. The most common icon, ELEV: , is not used in any article for any language listed on WP:RDT, and is only listed on the ja: RDT catalog (ja:Wikipedia:経路図テンプレート/鉄道用ピクトグラム一覧). – PeterCX&Talk 01:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
out-dented for readability
"Standards" aren't something have to remain fixed in stone for ever though, but need to change/bend to reflect new requirements. In this instance the use of a 'second suffix' for elevated lines makes a great deal of sense, basically and simply because a vast number of existing (and missing) icons will require an elevated version and that will be the *sole* difference between the versions. As such maintenance creation and usage of icon codes which just have that single 'addition' are easiest to code and work with if we add that simple extension. Whether "-ELEV" is the right suffix or it should be in some other language is, of course, a different discussion. However given that there are already codes based on German, French and English it would appear that "who needs it first names it" applies. --AlisonW (talk) 12:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

New "text" template

Looking through the route maps category I came across Template:Lynton and Barnstaple line which had used some small text above the route maps as it shows the state of the line on three different dates. Although this is - clearly - a very unusual case I wasn't happy to see the column years not line up with the routes, so I've created a few new templates to enable a minimal amount of text (I suspect five characters is the maximum) to be placed in each 'pictogram' position on a line.

Mapping BS3-5 they are Template:BS3text, Template:BS4text and Template:BS5text as these are the only overall widths where individual column titles might be required. They take the same parameters as BS3/4/5 do except that the first 3/4/5 entries are just the required text, not an icon code. Hope they are useful on those rare occasions. I haven't added them to the main project page yet as I'm not sure whether they should be. --AlisonW (talk) 00:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I must say that is a really good idea =) – PeterCX&Talk 08:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Firefox gaps fixed

Someone has fixed the gap problem by modifying the {{BS-table}} to use the same as the german version. I've modified {{BS-table1}} to reflect the same changes. However for the {{BS-table/WithCollapsibles}} and {{BS-table1/WithCollapsibles‎}} I'm not too sure how these changes would affect. Would someone with the sufficient knowledge help to change it? - oahiyeel talk 03:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

This is tricky. I've looked at this for a while and I can't figure out what's going on. What I have noticed is that the gaps are not there when using a collapsible BS3 table (e.g. {{North Coast Line}}) but the gaps are there when using a collapsible BS1 table (e.g. Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line). More I haven't been able to figure out so far. - 52 Pickup (deal) 20:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Printing

Something has gone wrong within the last month or so. Diagrams which look OK on screen are now totally corrupted when you print them. The problem is visible with "Print Preview" so you don't need to waste paper to investigate this. Just perform "Print Preview" of this talk page, and flip through the pages until you find a diagram (the first is the "East West Line"). (I am using IE 6.0, other browsers might not have this problem.) Printing used to work OK about a month or so ago. --Dr Greg (talk) 12:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Page looks fine to me in print preview in both Firefox and MSie ... what sort of problem are you having? --77.101.73.67 (talk) 15:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Dr, Greg. Using IE6, the diagrams on this page have a single indistinct route line, with nothing like the complexity seen in the HTML page view. Will try different browsers when I get home. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a screenshot to illustrate the problem, but I can't work out what would be an appropriate licence to apply to the upload. None of the upload wizard's options seem appropriate. It's not really "my own work" but neither is it "not free content". (I've asked for help on the Media copyright questions help page, but no replies yet.)

Can anyone suggest an appropriate licence? --Dr Greg (talk) 18:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest GFDL, and that you relax a little. If it gets deleted it gets deleted. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Use {{wikipedia-screenshot}}, and provide a link to the image, rather than putting it directly into this talk (or where-ever). For example see Image:WP Screenshot - Infobox Uk Station.PNG which I used to discuss a problem once before. Tivedshambo (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Tivedshambo, that's exactly what I wanted to know.

Everybody, Image:WP Screenshot - Incorrectly rendered image of route diagram.PNG illustrates the problem I originally described. It is a screendump of an incorrectly rendered "Print Preview". Further details are on the image's description page. A more complex, and more revealing, example, is Image:WP Screenshot - Incorrectly rendered Blackpool & Fleetwood.PNG.

Can anyone work out what's gone wrong and how it can be fixed? --Dr Greg (talk) 12:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspect the problem is that IE6 does not handle SVG images correctly. It's not the RDT templates that are at fault. For example try print-previewing the contents panel on my user page. There have been various fixes in Wikipedia to correct this, but they don't seem to work for printing. You could try raising this on the technical village pump, but whether anything will get done I don't know. All I can suggest is printing from another browser - it seems to work ok with Firefox - or upgrading to IE7. Sorry I can't suggest anything more positive. Tivedshambo (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I can well believe that that black background behind each SVG image is a problem with the SVG-to-PNG conversion by the server. I don't whether that would account for all the misalignments. I suspect it's to do with the difference between screen pixels-per-inch and printer dots-per-inch. However I do remember printouts worked without a problem back in November or December of last year, so it's something that changed since then. There must be large numbers of our readers who are stuck with IE6 so it would be nice to find a solution.

I've asked a question at the Village pump here.

By the way, the images on Tivedshambo's user page print out without a problem. --Dr Greg (talk) 17:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

All, this may be related to the PngFix script that makes them transparent for IE6, but I'm not sure until I get home. But since PngFix has been running for about 6 months now, it may not be the source of the problem. — Edokter • Talk • 20:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Icon request

Could someone produce a hybrid of Image:BSicon ACC.svg and Image:BSicon TurmBHFo.svg, for a split-level station with disabled access please (unless one already exists and I haven't found it). See Smethwick Galton Bridge in Template:Birmingham-Worcester via Kidderminster. Many thanks. Tivedshambo (talk) 12:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. TurmBHFAo – PeterCX&Talk 14:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Great - now in use. Many thanks. Tivedshambo (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Another request...could someone please create disused versions of Image:BSicon kABZ3lg.svg, Image:BSicon kABZ3lf.svg, Image:BSicon kABZlg.svg and Image:BSicon kABZlf.svg. It's to create two triangular junctions on the Three Bridges Line. I've only succeeded in creating PNG equivalents which are on the Commons. Ravenseft (talk) 11:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
One exists: exkABZ3lg ; others producing – PeterCX&Talk 14:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Done. exkABZ3lf, exkABZlg, exkABZlf – PeterCX&Talk 15:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Fantastic work - I can't thank you enough. Ravenseft (talk) 19:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Two-line format bad

There seems to be a sudden rash of adding splitting the station information over two lines and using HTML to achieve this (ie "text part one<br />text part two"). Could people please not do this as it breaks the continuity of lines when a user changes their displayed font size, creating breaks in the actual route line. Separately it also makes the diagram more difficult to read anyway as if you are looking for a station you've suddenly not got the station names alone in a column. Thanks. --AlisonW (talk) 22:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspected there might be a down-side to this. I noticed one particular user has added 'interchange information' (which is already available in the text) in this manner to Greenford Branch Line and North London Line (these being on my watchlist - haven't looked at his other contributions, sorry.) You may care to have a word with him, if you haven't already.
EdJogg (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Tram symbols

There is a debate on Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways about the use of specific tram symbols on route diagram templates, and I thought it would be better to discuss it here. There have been a number of cases where the generic tram symbol (either Image:BSicon TRAM.svg or the {{tram symbol}} template) have been replaced with a specific logo. Personally I am opposed to this for two reasons:

  • A logo may well be subject to free-use restrictions, and
  • A logo will need to be clearly identified.

For example, see this template - a purple dot means nothing to most users. It has been suggested that a "hover over" tool-tip could be used, but this would not be suitable for printed versions, and relies on the user moving the mouse over the symbol in the first place. What do other users think? Tivedshambo (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

In cases where the symbol is effectively permanent and always understood (eg TfL roundel) then it is possibly acceptable(subject to rights issues) whereas if the operator might change (most TOCs) then it would seem safer to use a generic. Hover tips aren't, imho, acceptable as makes presumptions on the user's browser, skill, etc. --AlisonW (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty certain the TfL roundel is copyright (see Image:Roundelfamily.jpg). I'll raise the matter of Image:Underground no-text.svg (which seems to have contradictory copyright/trademark information) on Commons. Tivedshambo (talk) 13:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

sandbox

i figured a sandbox might be a nice idea for this, so i created one here. It comes from one in my userspace. Hope you like it and will participate! Jake the Editor Man (talk) 14:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Help...

Hello,

I'm using these icons at http://trams.wikia.com and they are not displaying correctly - in full size rather than smaller (see here and here.

All help would be fully apppreciated!

Thanks,

BG7 12:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorted. You had omitted setting the default icon size at BSpx. --AlisonW (talk) 13:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot!
BG7 14:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Icon request

Hello, I started working on Warsaw's transportation system and it seems it's pretty much unique, as there are several tiles missing:

Any volunteers? :) //Halibutt 00:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well maybe they are not missing. Some of them are only missing in WP:RDT/C.
  1. already exists. tUKRZ
  2. already exists. tINT
  3. tINTCPICl, tINTCPICm, tINTCPICr. Do you need a CPIC terminus too?
  4. Sorry, but I don't understand this...
– PeterCX&Talk 11:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
yes, the cuttings ones exist in some forms. Check on User:AlisonW/Rail Icons at the HSTCC ones (blue only currently). Is that what youi mean? --AlisonW (talk) 14:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks guys, I'm still new to this business :) ({{WKD}}, {{SKM (Warsaw)}}, {{WWK}}). BTW, Alison, that's precisely what I meant. The Warszawa Śródmieście WKD station is a tad complicated to depict so I thought of something along those lines. It's located at the end of a tunnel, partially in it, and partially in a cutting with a roof. //Halibutt 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Overbridge?

Can someone explain what exactly an "overbridge" is? --Jfruh (talk) 00:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

"A bridge over a road, railway, canal, etc" (WordWeb Online definition).
Curiously, it is not listed at 'AskOxford' or 'TheFreeDictionary', although I thought it was in common usage.
Is it actually jargon? -- EdJogg (talk) 13:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard it in US railfan contexts; maybe it's a British/Commonwealth thing? I guess I'm wondering what distinguishes an "overbridge" from a plain old bridge.
The OED lists it as verb (trans. To make a bridge over; to bridge. Also fig. and in extended use.) and noun (A bridge over a railway or road). The noun version dates to 1876 or 1898, depending on how strict a match you're after. It's been in consistent use throughout the C20. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[out]

I came here because I was curious as to what the symbol meant on the diagram for the SPRINTER light rail service. I'm curious about how exactly the symbol should be used in railroad diagrams -- after all, some light rail and metro systems have extensive elevated sections; should the overbridge section be used throughout those? --Jfruh (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The use isn't consistent... you could either use the viaduct symbols (like SPRINTER or Docklands Light Railway) or just plain line symbols. Tompw (talk) (review) 13:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
That depends on how much information one wishes to include. One can put as simply as the list of stations only, or indicate underground and elevated sections, or indicate roads crossed, sidings, etc. – PeterCX&Talk 14:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Heathrow Services

I've posted my version of services to Heathrow Airport in my sandbox. Take a look and comment. Dkpintar (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Correct in places, very wrong in others! For one, doesn't show subsurface sections correctly, two is that the line from the GW into Heathrow is shared by the two current services, and three that the Piccadilly doesn't offer a connection from T4 5o T5. It also leaves off the Heathrow Airtrack proposals which are currently out for comment and should be built in the next few years (hence why the current route diagram one looks different!) --AlisonW (talk) 13:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Right you are. My diagrams tend to be more simplistic, so a lot of things are not shown. [my bad......]. I've not read much on the airtrack proposals, but i will now. Thanks. Dkpintar (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)