Talk:Rossville, Staten Island

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[edit] My removal of objectionable and highly subjective statements from this article

24.168.47.49 wrote: "There is 2 developments in Rossville- known as Woodbrooke Gardens which is a low-class development with 1,2 and 3 bedrooms in each house. Each house was built the same way in the early 80's. Woodbrooke is surrounded by Rossville avenue, Correll avenue, and Winant avenue. On the Gervil street section of Woodbrooke, there however is a development of co-ops which is know as the "blue houses" which are enemies of Woodbrooke which are the "red houses". The crime rate in Woodbrooke Gardens has decreased over the last decade."

I deleted your nonsense about "Woodbrooke Gardens" (The development is actually named Woodbrooke Estates) because it was highly subjective, inflammatory, and riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. I replaced it with a coherent, factual, and objective description.) - Citizen Dick 14:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Beetstra's removal of my external link

The link to http://www.woodbrookeestates.com is valid. Even though the website is under construction, it still contains relevant information, and I have re-inserted it into the article. Please don't remove this link again. Thank you! 172.131.123.36 15:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

None of the provided information is about the subject of the article, Rossville, Staten Island; it seems to be just advertising for Woodbroke Estates. There are external link guidelines, and the link isn't following them. Veinor (talk to me) 16:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You don't know what you are talking about, Veinor. That website references a HISTORICAL item from 1981. It is NOT an advertisement for Woodbrooke Estates. Get your facts straight before needlessly editing something that you know NOTHING about! 172.131.123.36 16:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I quote :

Stunning architectural designs immediately set these extraordinary town homes apart, and create an unmistakable feeling of warmth, good taste and individuality.

And you would do well to remain civil, lest you be blocked for uncivility. And you still haven't addressed the fact that the subject of the website is not Rossville. Veinor (talk to me) 16:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Veinor. As you can see, I'm back! Now knock it off with the threats, because if you continue to harass me, I'll report your conduct to the higher-ups at Wikipedia, and you will be the one who'll "be forced to not edit". By the way, I won't revert your edits of my revisions of this article, as you are an unreasonable editor who seems to be taking my resubmissions of the http://www.woodbrookeestates.com link personally. I think that I will have much better luck dealing with another editor in the future. Now please leave me alone, ok? I don't want to know that you even exist! 172.163.158.75 16:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You're the one making these comments on the talkpage. And I don't think you can legitimately claim that I am 'unreasonable' (see the edit summary) given that you have previously called me an asshole and a nerd on a power trip. Veinor (talk to me) 16:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong Mr. Bigshot Wikipedia Editor? Did I touch a nerve, by calling you an "asshole" and a "nerd on a power trip"? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, THAN IT'S A DUCK! 172.163.158.75 17:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
What if it looks, walks, and types like a user that's going to be blocked if he makes one more personal attack? Veinor (talk to me) 17:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh brother, here we go again! Don't waste your time by blocking me, as it is nothing but a minor inconvenience to me. To be honest, I really don't think that you have the temperament to be a editor here on Wikipedia. You should be showing a little more maturity and stop getting so upset at me, a person that you don't even know. It seems that you have a penchant for threatening people. That's a big mistake, as I said before, behavior like your will get you removed as an editor. Have a nice day! 172.163.158.75 17:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
At least I've never called you an "asshole" or "Mr. Bigshot Wikipedia Editor." Veinor (talk to me) 17:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
If you are going to antagonize other people, you are going to have to learn to deal with the repercussions. As far as me calling you an "asshole", If the shoe fits, wear it, Veinor! 172.163.158.75 17:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philip Gronowski's vandalism of this article

By his unwarranted removal of NON-SPAM links, Philip Gronowski is vandalizing this article. Hey Phil, I'd like to ask that you refrain from future vandalism of this page. Failure to do so will result in me doing everything possible to have your wikipedia account blocked. By the way, isn't it foolish to use your real name as your wikipedia user name? ;-) 172.163.241.71 17:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, not really. I think you and Don Murphy would get along. I am not vandalising this article, I am removing inappropriate links added to it and that in no way allows for me to be blocked. I am confident that my edits are completely acceptable. If you really feel that you have a case, start an RFC. Philip Gronowski Contribs 17:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philip Gronowski's CONTINUED vandalism of this article

I see that you're at it again, Phil. You just don't learn, do you. No wonder your candidacy for Rfa was resoundingly defeated! This time I will not get into an edit war with you. I will go through the appropriate channels to have your continued vandalism (persistant removal of legitimate and helpful external links) of this article stopped once and for all. I suggest that you grow the hell up! 172.135.184.176 20:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

And I suggest you stop spamming pages? How do you like dem apples? Read the WP:EL policy and do not call legitimate edits vandalism. Launch an RFC, I am fully confident that community will support me in my actions, although we have had our disagreements in interactions, such as the unsuccessful RFA you mentioned rather rudely. P.S I'm not the one that called a person who reverted their edits on the internet a "a stupid polock motherfucker named Gronowski" and a "faggot". Have a jolly good day, Philip Gronowski Contribs 20:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
You obviously have some severe mental problems, and I want you to stop harassing me. You failed in your quest for an Rfa as people like you don't deserve to be administrators on Wikipedia. In fact, you don't even deserve to be on Wikipedia PERIOD. 172.135.184.176 20:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I do not see how I am harassing you in anyway, and last time I checked the man in my left eyebrow told me I didn't have any mental problems. If you have so much of a problem, then launch an RFC.Philip Gronowski Contribs 20:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] How is an external link to a newspaper article about a neighborhood landmark considered "spam"?

Certainly, a newspaper article about the 150th anniversary of the oldest Roman Catholic church in Staten Island (which is located in Rossville) cannot be considered "spam"! I have resubmitted that external link, and I'd like to ask you to control yourself and not remove it, Mr. Gronowski. Thank you. 172.135.184.176 20:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a link to a non-notable celebration of a barely notable church. I'll leave that link be, but the other ones did not contribute to the article significantly. And your history of serial spamming doesn't really help when you add external links. Also, please stop making section headers for every comment, it is much harder to read this way and takes up room. With your permission, I would like to remove this section title, it is long and should be part of your previous comments. Philip Gronowski Contribs 20:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
That church may be "barely notable" to you, as you live in Canada, but it is very notable to members of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, as it is the oldest Catholic church in one of the five boroughs of New York City. Who are you to be the arbiter of such matters? Unlike you, I live in Staten Island, so I think that makes me a little more qualified than you are to comment on places in Staten Island. To answer your question about removing my section headers, THE ANSWER IS NO! You do not have my permission to remove my section headers, and I'd like to request that you stop making insulting and condescending comments about my edits and my revisions. Thank you. 172.135.184.176 20:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Then you would agree that something that is only locally notable is going to remain only barely notable in the eyes of a worldwide encyclopedia. And you didn't have to yell, I asked you politely if I could remove the section head. My comments were in any way insulting, nor were they patronizing you in anyway. I was asking you to follow a certain style which allows ease of reading for all readers. You should not take every comment directed at you as a personal insult or attack. Philip Gronowski Contribs 21:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/History_and_geography

The following RfC was posted earlier today in order to end this dispute once and for all. I trust that Philip Gronowski will abide by the findings of the administrator who makes a decision concerning my dispute. 172.135.184.176 21:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Rossville, Staten Island - As part of an ongoing edit war, Philip Gronowski has been arbitrarily reverting all additions of external links to the article as "removal of spam". These external links, which had been part of the article since it's creation, are not spam, and were unjustifiably removed. One external link links to an article about the 150th anniversary of the oldest Roman Catholic Church in Staten Island, which is located in the neighborhood. Another external link links to a website created by a former resident who describes what it was like to grow up in the area before it was built up. It seems to me that this Philip Gronowski character, who has recently been resoundingly rejected in his candidacy for RfA, is not making legitimate revisions based on the rules of Wikipedia, but on his own interpretation of what is "spam". I'd like to request that this article be submitted for third party arbitration, as I have exhausted all attempts at a compromise with Mr. Gronowski. I will abide by any decision made by an impartial administrator concerning this dispute. Thank you very much for your consideration. 172.135.184.176 20:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I found the Ruins of Rossville and Tugboat Graveyard links interesting and see no harm if they were to be included in the external links section. Aequo 22:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm an urban explorer myself but the links have no context in the article. I mean, do you see other articles with UE hotspots linked to them? There is no mention of the place in the article, and even if there was the pages are not written by a recognized authority (although I would probably let that slide in the case of urban exploring). Remember, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of links, they have to add to the article. Philip Gronowski Contribs 23:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I must admit, you are correct. However, would both parties be open to perhaps adding a bit on urban exploration in Rossville? Even if it's just a sentence or two in the Rossville Today section, with a footnote linking to one of the websites? Aequo 18:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
So what's the consensus on keeping the "Ruins of Rossville" and the "Tugboat Graveyard" links in the article? If no consensus is made, then I'm afraid that the edit war with Philip Gronowski will continue indefinitely, as this guy is not open to a compromise! 172.145.21.185 19:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Not added to the article unless there is something about urban exploration in the article. I am going to remove them right now and look for info to write up on the Ruins of Rossville and Tugboat Graveyard. And don't assume that I am not open to compromise, you aren't in my head. Philip Gronowski Contribs 23:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The edit war is over, and Citizen Dick has developed material augmenting some of the external links which had given rise to this request for comment (See remarks below). Are there issues still open to discussion? If not, the request should be delisted from Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/History_and_geography in a few days or so as to relieve the clutter there. Take care — Gosgood 13:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I've delisted this. Take care — Gosgood 13:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gosgood RFC comment

  • Forgotton NY: Agree with Aequo. This is the sort of site that external links were intended. WP:EL#What should be linked point 3. It is material that is reasonably well written, is about an area close to Rossville, and, being copyright material, must be referenced externally.
  • Write and reference, instead of linking externally: The external link guideline recommends that, rather than posting bare external links, instead use the sites as references, and paraphrase their content, materially adding to the article itself. This involves more work, specifically writing, but for what other reason are people volunteering their time for? I wish, for example, that the word count that has been invested in this talk page could have been invested in the article itself. I think that using external links is a form of lazy editing. Please, write it up instead.
  • RFC: The anonymous editor requesting this RFC misunderstands the process. This is not a mechanism where administrators will make some kind of finding that is in any way binding. Editors request comments on articles when discussion among a small group, usually comprised of editors dedicated to different themes of a particular article, fails to converge to consensus, and there is hope that otherwise unengaged editors will raise points that break the deadlocks. If the deadlocks persist, then the editors engaged in the dispute may proceed to the next stage, mediation, and, as a last resort, arbitration. At this RFC stage, administrators are not formally involved and nothing "decided" is in any way binding. See the dispute resolution process for the overall flow.
  • Edit war: It is stupid. Stop it. Sixty two edits since Zahid Abdassabur post of 01:16, 7 December 2006, and what is there to show for it? One link change and a street name corrected. Tweedledum. Tweedledee. It is circumstances such as this that gives cogency to the argument that Wikipedia is not so great after all. Edit wars don't go on by themselves. Editors participate in them. To the participants I urge: take it easy. It's mainly in your power to stop the war. Just stop hitting the 'edit' link so much. Take care — Gosgood 14:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, All of your points are excellent and I am willing to follow your advice. I admit that SOME aspects of the edit war were stupid, while others were not. Now about the Forgotten NY thing. I am a strong believer that external links should be written by an expert in the subject, though Urban exploration isn't an activity most people will admit to publicly. So, I propose that the link is added once there is something in the article about its subject matter. There are plenty of places in my area that are urban exploration hotspots, but I haven't added them to the article because they are not notable or mentioned in the article. Just my ideas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Philip Gronowski (talk • contribs) 19:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
Aww fudge, forgot to sign. Philip Gronowski Contribs 19:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The web site Forgotten NY is maintained by Kevin Walsh. Since he started it in 1999, it has become well-known among New Yorkers curious about hints of the old city that crop up among twenty first century structures. HarperCollins approached him to write a companion book, which, under the rubric Forgotten NY, is currently in print. While I generally distrust websites, I'm inclined to trust this one; I think it is a decent place in which to link.
External links: In my opinion, adding external links is, at best, a deficient way to contribute to Wikipedia. And in the normative case these links are a pain. They always have to be checked for spamming, and removing the marginal cases start yelling matches. Far, far better to use the external site as a starting point to develop prose, add it to the article, then cite the external source as a reference. I would especially hope that the anonymous editor(s) who claim(s) being a resident near Rossville use his or her knowledge of the locality to write how his or her neighborhood relates to the Rossville boatyard; maybe get a camera and take some shots of the boatyard, release them under GFDL, and add them to the article. That, to my mind, would be a far, far, more satisfying contribution to Wikipedia to look back on a year from now than a string of uncivil remarks on talk pages and edit histories, all of which reflect badly on Wikipedia to the general public (see below).
Absolutely, positively, every single aspect of edit warring is stupid. No exceptions. I direct this comment to all individuals participating in this particular piece of nastiness, as indicated in the article history, both named and anonymous editors. Don't get involved in tit-for-tat edits and reverts. Don't get so blindly passionate that administrators start blocking your accounts or IP addresses. Sure, anonymous editors on dynamically assigned addresses can drift to another address, running the blockade, and continue their 'March to Savannah' but what happens to those blocked addresses? I'll tell you what happens to those blocked addresses. They are assigned to other customers of the internet service provider, who, should these innocent bystanders visit Wikipedia, get — what appears to them — these strange, out-of-the-blue messages that they're blocked. They're confused, and a little angry at Wikipedia, and for what reason? Because a bunch of warring editors, too blind in their passion to calculate the consequences of their actions, are busy reverting and calling each other names. Another uncalculated consequence is the damange to Wikipedia's reputation. These edit histories are visible to everyone. Now tell me, to what extent would you trust an article when you turn to the history, witness the day-by-day volatility of content, find slurs and accusations traded among 'participating' editors? No wonder Andrew Orlowski of the The Register labels this web site Jimbo's Big Bag of Trivia. Looking at the edit history of this particular article, how can I disagree? Editors involved in wars seriously degrade the reputation of the encyclopedia they claim to be helping. Third consequence: the cost of these conflicts divert other administrators and editors from the task of writing an encyclopedia to the tasks of administrivia. Please. Take my advice: walk from the war. If another editor has pissed you off, do something else for a day or three. There's more than enough that needs to be done around Wikipedia without wasting your time and energy in texted versions of shouting matches. Life is way too short for all of that. Check with your doctor for a more precise estimate. Take care. — Gosgood 14:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is going on with this article?

Hello. I have made some contributions to this article in the past, and I am appalled at what is going on in respect to the edit war concerning external links which have been added, and then deleted, by the "warring parties". I agree 100% with Gosgood, and believe that instead of adding unreferenced external links to this article, it would be far more constructive to take some photos of the scrap yard, release them under GFDL, and add them to the article. I live near Rossville, and if the anonymous editor doesn't do so himself, I will add content to the article concerning the Whitte Brothers Marine Scrap Yard which is located off of Arthur Kill Road in Rossville. Additionally, once the weather gets a little nicer, I will consider taking a trip down to the scrap yard myself in order to take some photos. If there is a consenus, I will add a photo depicting the scrap yard to the article and release it under GFDL. I hope that my proposal can bring some civility to the dispute between these individuals who are continuing to engage in this ridiculous and immature edit war. Thanks. Citizen Dick 14:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It was agreed upon earlier that the links should not be added until there was something in the article about the subject, and there were no edits since that agreement, therfore the edit war is not continuous. If you can, take the pictures and use some references and write a bit about the boatyard, I can't take the pictures for obvious reasons. Also, some aspects of the edits were not ridiculous or immature, the anon was spamming pages continuously using dynamic ip's, while a request for page protection was going through. Reverting spam and vandalism is not edit warring, though some of our later edits were. Philip Gronowski Contribs 19:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I created a new subsection with information about Sandy Ground, gave St. Joseph's Church it's own subsection, and created a new section with information about the Staten Island Boat Graveyard. I will try to take a picture of church and of the scrapyard and eventually add them to the article in the near future. Thanks. Citizen Dick 14:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Gosgood, for your helpful addition to the article! Citizen Dick 16:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Previously removed external links restored to article

I restored the external links to the Forgotten NY and the Undercity.org webpages, as now there is reference to them in the article. If there are still objections to their inclusion in this article, please state your case here. Thanks! Citizen Dick 17:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope, that was all that was needed, something in the article about them. Philip Gronowski Contribs 19:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NE2's tagging of this article

Since I added references as requested, I'd like to ask that the WP:REF tag which "NE2" inserted be removed from the article! I would remove it myself, but I don't know if I would be in violation of Wikipedia's policies if I did so. Thanks. Citizen Dick 11:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There are only a very few 'sticky tags' that should not be removed except in the course of a well-known process, and any such probation is spelled out in the template article for the tag in question. These articles reside in the Template namespace and can usually found by forming a link like [[Template:tagname]] For example: Template:unreferenced. Anyone can remove an unreferenced article tag, after finding citations for the unsupported material, of course. The User template article lists user warning tags for the various 'sticky tags' that should only be removed according to a process. — Gosgood 13:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality Scale Rating

I believe that this article deserves better than a Start-Class quality scale rating, therefore I would like to request that this rating be re-evaluated and adjusted accordingly. Thank you. 24.168.42.143 09:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the article has more detail and better references to be classified as only a start class article. Because of this, I am changing the quality scale rating from start class to B class. 172.135.30.61 12:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, whoever you are! 24.168.42.143 17:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)