Talk:Rosselló

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As an historical comarca, why is this here rather than at Rosselló (comarca)? That is where {{Comarques of Catalonia}} refers... -- Jmabel | Talk 02:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Since the homonymous county was named Roussillon I was unsure which I should choose. Another case is Alta Cerdanya. Toniher 13:29, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirection

I Redirected this page to the correct spelling and official english name: Roussillon. The first paragraph of the Roussillon page now says exactly the same thing as this one did, being much more complete. Maurice27 15:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that this page would be less ambiguous with the name Rosselló (comarca) or Roussillon (comarca). I'm not going to start a crusade about the name issue as far as Catalan language, the own language of this territory, is respected. But, of course, this information should not be removed as you have been doing, since the comarca is different from the historic county. Toniher 12:11, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
One possibility would be to keep the general article at Roussillon, the name which is currently more usual in English, but to have Rosselló (vegueria) and Rosselló (county) (and, why not, Roussillon (province)) for article discussing those periods of its history in more detail. At some point, Rosselló is going to have to become a disambiguation page, as there is also the municipality of Rosselló, Lleida to write an article about. Rosselló (comarca) always strikes me as an anachronism, even if it is one that is widely used in present-day Catalan (including in Enciclopèdia Catalana). Roussillon (comarca) seems like a bad idea to me: I can't see us getting a compromise which mixes French and Catalan in the article title! Physchim62 (talk) 13:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's see. First of all, Toniher, I've been reading your explanation in the discussion page of the template "comarques de Catalunya". Nobody is answering me about the changes I mentioned in the titles of that template (i.e. French comarques of Northern Catalonia).
In your answer you say that "English names should be preferred when there is one in common usage, if not, native name should be used.". In this case, there is an english one, "Roussillon". Just because of that, "Rosselló" should not be used.
On the other hand, just because a large amount of the users searching about this county are going to be catalan-speakers, Rosselló HAS to be used (in a redirection to the english name in the english wikipedia). Being myself french native, living last 10 years in spain, does not allow me to change the London wikipage to "Londres" (both french and spanish) just because that's the way I ussually refer to this city. But what problem would I have for redirecting "Londres" to "London"?... None.
That said, I will quote the first paragraph in both Roussillon and Rosselló pages:
-Rousillon: "Roussillon (French: Roussillon, pronounced /ʀusijɔ̃/; Occitan: Rossellò, pronounced /rusəˈʎo/) is one of the historical counties of the former Principality of Catalonia, corresponding roughly to the present-day southern French département of Pyrénées-Orientales (Eastern Pyrenees). It is also called French Catalonia or Northern Catalonia, the latter term used particularly by Catalan nationalism."
-"Rosselló: "The comarca of Roussillon (Catalan: Rosselló) is a historical Catalan comarca of Northern Catalonia, now part of the French Département of Pyrénées-Orientales. Its capital is Perpignan (Catalan: Perpinyà).It comprises most of the historic county and province of Roussillon."
They say the same thing! In France the county of Rousillon has any special status, it is just an amount of valleys which happen to have a name because of the Counts of Roussillon heritage (which BTW, are completely forgotten in the Rosselló page while mentioned in the Roussillon one).
My vote is to respect catalan name for catalan speakers (Rosselló, Rossellò) being explicit in the redirection to the official english name Roussillon, the way it has always been in wikipedia. That done, nobody cares about the content explaining the catalan related heritage of this county/pays/comarque/vegueria (none of these are official nowadays). Roussillon has no official borders to distinguish it from surrounding lands, then no need to have a title like "Roussillon (county/pays/comarque/vegueria)". I invite both of you to search in google or wherever by pays of roussillon, or comarque of roussillon (a part of course the catalan ones). In France, I repeat it has no borders, so when refering to "Roussillon" everybody is talking about the former lands of the Counts of Roussillon.

Regards, Maurice27 15:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that Rosello (with only one S) is the italian village Maurice27 16:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27 also forgets that there is no official English name, this being one of the rare parts of the world which the Brits never colonised. Under this argument, the whole Roussillon article should be merged into Pyrénées-Orientales, which doesn't really get us anywhere with the disputes in progress. Physchim62 (talk) 15:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Nobody wants to merge both articles, as the Roussillon (which is the name you use) is a part of the Pyrénées-Orientales, not the whole. But why are there pages for the [[Counts of Roussillon]], (e.g. [[Girard I of Roussillon]], [[Giselbert I of Roussillon]]) all using "Roussillon" but then the page for the territory is "Rosselló". How can be the "rosselló" the land of the counts of Roussillon? Just take a look at your home encyclopedia see under what name do these lands appear, Rosselló or Roussillon. Maurice27 17:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
BTW, searching in the encyclopaedia britannica online:
Roussillon: [[1]]
Roselló or Rossello: [[2]]
Is there still any doubt using Rosselló is not correct as an article title? Maurice27 17:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not exactly know what we are discussing by now. :) As I have said before, I think that may be that the best thing to avoid this ambiguity is to name this article as Roussillon (comarca). The fact is that Catalan speakers, when we refer to Rosselló, we mostly refer currently to the comarca, so a redirection would drive to here. Because of the latter fact, I can perfectly understand why Physchim62 changed it a pair of months ago.
On the other hand, as far as I can tell from my Catalonian point of view, French and as a result, English and other foreigners, are not sure at all what they exactly mean by Roussillon nowadays. Of course, they roughly refer to the territory of the former county and Ancient Regime province, but I think they would not be able to be precise enough to define if they refer to the Départment, to Northern Catalonia, or just to the comarca or the plain. If we were strict, I think the best thing would be to transform Roussillon into a disambiguation page, as we have now, with all the possible definitions, both historical and present. Toniher 18:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
For France is not a comarca but a Pays (France), then stop using the catalan comarca to define it. It is not catalan soil. When French and as a result, English and other foreigners think of Roussillon they think of this: Roussillon. An article with correct name in english (see Encyclopaedia Brittanica) and well developed. Not the 3 lines stub the "Rosselló" is. BTW, 3 lines that are already in the Roussillon one. If catalan people search for Rosselló they can be redirected to the correct english name. Why do we have 2 articles? Why a disambiguation? If both articles are about the same territory. Let's redirect all to the name in english and erase the others. If Toniher believes the map should be inside the article, that's up to him to include it. Maurice27 21:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Please, search any reference of these pays of the department. If such references exist, I would not have any problem to respect them (I'm actually respecting them, not as you with the comarques); but I'm not sure if they refer to the same thing as we understand comarques are. You may like it or not, be legal or not, but comarques are widely used by Catalan people as references of their own territory, it does not matter whether they are located in the Kingdom of Spain or in the Republic of France. Here some notes and history of present Northern Catalonian comarcal division. Toniher 00:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
For cases like you we need a disambiguation page, since they do not refer to the same territory. Toniher 22:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Then, explain us all where does Rosselló differ from Roussillon. Maurice27 22:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Maurice, I do not vouch for the accuracy of the map which is used on these pages but it certainly indicates that Rosselló is different from the French (post-1660) province of Rousillion. Economically, maybe not, but geographically certainly! Physchim62 (talk) 18:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Proposal for Roussillon disambiguation

Neither of you are getting my point. Let's see. Right now, all 3 of us agree that there are 4 territories clearly defined:
-The County of Roussillon. (Middle age territories of the Count of Roussillon). Only Roussillon.
-The Province of Roussillon. ( the french "Ancien Régime" province). Roussillon + Capcir + Vallespir + French Cerdagne + Conflent. (The so-called "Northen Catalonia").
-The "pays/comarca" of Roussillon. (equivalent territories in present day to the County of Roussillon). Only Roussillon
-Pyrenées-Orientales. (The french Department). Province of Roussillon + Fennouilledes. (Or "Northern Catalonia" + Fennouilledes)
Please, let me know if I'm wrong. Now, let's check the disambiguation english page. See Roussillon (disambiguation). We have:
-Roussillon (1). Which links to the (ancient regime's province) Roussillon territory article. But described as "one of the historical counties of the former Principality of Catalonia, --> This is not correct!!! It should explain it as "the french "Ancien Régime" province equivalent territory, which includes the County of Roussillon territory". All 3 (tile, explanation and content are wrong). This article should be title "roussillon (former province)". The more correct text would be the one in the Roussillon article.Now, if AFTER explaining the late French province catalans want to explain these are ROUGHLY also the territories forming "Northern catalonia", fine. But catalan's vision is not everybody's and it should not prevail or monopolize the article's introduction.
-Roussillon (2). Which links to the "Middle age County of Roussillon's territories or County of Roussillon's territories". First of all, the title is in catalan (again, it should be in english). It is described in the disambiguation page as a "a Catalonian comarca". This is COMPLETELY FALSE. It is not part of Catalonia, it is part of France. Then, it is explained in the content of the stub as "a(n) historical Catalan comarca of Northern Catalonia, now part of the French Département of Pyrénées-Orientales.". it should explain it as (i.e. The historical territories of the County of Roussillon) like in the french "Comté de Roussillon" wikipage. Please see [[3]], or the spanish "Condado de Rosellón" wikipage. Please see [[4]], or the Catalan "Comtat del Rosselló". Please see [[5]]. In english, this article about the late County of Roussillon does not exist. Then, IMHO, the Rosselló page should be titled "County of Roussillon" with an article explaining the late County. If catalans want to include a reference to this county's territory, fine... But in second place, not in first place. THIS WOULD BE THE HISTORY ARTICLE OF THE COUNTY OF ROUSSILLON. (still to be writen)
Those are the only 2 in english wikipedia. Then if you agree with me, we need one more. ( Roussillon (pays)/Roussillon (comarca)), right?
This article should be about the present-day territory exactly equal' to the late "County of Roussillon". If Toniher continues to argue that "Roussillon (pays/comarca)" is different geographically-speaking from "County of Roussillon", I DEMAND proofs with MAPS to show the tiniest valley or acre in difference. Not in a single place (e.g internet, encyclopedias) have I found NOTHING.'I DO NOT BELIEVE THEM TO BE DIFFERENT. That said, in ANY way it should be described as Comarques of Catalonia. This territory is NOT part of modern day catalonia nor has the jurisdiction catalan comarques have. there is an article that Toniher refuses to accept, which describes all these territories in France. See Pays (France). In this article, these territories are described as: "the French term pays is not used in the modern sense of "country" but preserves the original meaning of the Latin word from which it was derived, pagus, which designated the territory controlled by a medieval count. The majority of pays are roughly coextensive with the old counties." This is the PERFECT description of what this very article is about. Toniher,I don't care if the catalan comarques are better described in their article than the French pays. Roussillon has any special status for France but "an area whose inhabitants share common geographical, economic, cultural, or social interests". Catalan comarques DO HAVE a jurisdiction that Roussillon LACKS, the same way we cannot describe "El Garraf" or "El Barcelonés" or "La Segarra" as "districts" like in England.
So, my proposal is to remake everything with a disambiguation page where both "Roussillon and Rosselló" merge. And then 4 pages:
  1. County of Roussillon. One of the Early Middle Ages Counties to form the Marca Hispanica.
  2. Roussillon (former province). A French Province before the Revolution, roughly equal to what Catalan people call Northen Catalonia.
  3. Roussillon (pays). An historical French pays in the department of Pyrenées-Orientales.
  4. See also: Northern Catalonia
I would like to make clear, that catalan people are free to include INSIDE THE ARTICLE all the namings in catalan they feel important. But the titles should be in english. This also goes for "Cerdagne (the whole county)" and the "Cerdagnes (both french and spanish)". My vote goes for another disambiguation page where "Cerdagne", "Cerdanya", "Alta Cerdanya", redirect. And then 3 pages:
  1. Cerdagne. One of the Early Middle Ages Counties to form the Marca Hispanica, now divided between France and Spain.
  2. French Cerdagne. French half of the bla bla bla
  3. Spanish Cerdanya. Spanish half of the bla bla bla


I REALLY think this is the more NEUTRAL and ENCYCLOPEDIC way to solve this problem. Please, let me know what you think of this proposal.
Regards, Maurice27 22:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Roussillon county (comtat del Rosselló) map with historical border changes Toniher 00:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)