Talk:Ross rifle

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Contents 1 7 or 8 2 Bayonet 3 Ross rifle jamming 4 Fictional references 5 Discussion over 'Developments' section

[edit] 7 or 8

7mm Mauser? Wasn't it 8mm (actually, 7.92x57R)? Also, I added ref to the Huot LMG conversion. Trekphiler 21:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Re Huot, I found pix & links at http://www.cefresearch.com (I'm not competent to hotlink it...) & pix at the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corp website. Trekphiler 22:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

This site[1], as well as the ZAR Model 95 Mausers show, that the Boer Mauser fire to which the article refers was most likely from 7mm cartridges. The Boers employed a variety of firearms besides the 7mm Model 95 Mauser design, including British weapons and the Krag-Jorgensen rifle. The 8mm Mauser cartridge is better known to military buffs because of its use by the German military in both World Wars. TeamZissou 22:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bayonet

put bayonet text at Ross rifle/temp where it can be edited including the removal of discussion. GraemeLeggett 16:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ross rifle jamming

Nicholson's history of the CEF discusses the Ross Rifle imbroglio in some detail. Particularly interesting is the revelation on p156-157, that the chamber was in fact slightly smaller than that of the SMLE, and that the Ross Rifle was only satisfactory when using ammunition manufactured by the Dominion Arsenal, which was .010" smaller calibre, and a harder brass to reduce expansion after firing. The larger and softer cartridge made elsewhere often jammed. Reference: http://cefresearch.com/matrix/Nicholson/Transcription/Chapter5.pdf

Also, it appears that Alderson in fact got into trouble with Hughes over the Ross Rifle (ibid p158) by sending a letter listing ten reasons the troops didn't like it. It might be a good idea to reword the bit about Alderson supporting the rifle's use.

cheerio,
thos
220.233.30.241 12:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional references

I removed the fictional reference, it was not notable.

In Margaret Atwood's 2001 book The Blind Assassin, reflecting on World War I, the narrator mentions Ross rifles and says that some of the Canadian soldiers who were sent to France were supplied with Ross rifles, which occasionally jammed in the mud and rendered their users helpless.

Arthurrh 00:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion over 'Developments' section

Sir Charles Ross was working on, or did develop a light machine gun, but it wasn't based on his straight-bolt rifle design. Indeed, it would be absurdly difficult (though possible) to turn the action of his bolt rifle into a machine gun action. I'm not sure a Dominion Rifle Company existed -- there was a Canadian company called the Dominion Cartridge Company, but they were not in the business of developing firearms. I think that the reference might be referring to Ross' unproduced design, and this I believe demonstrates yet another reason there should be a separate article on the Ross Rifle Company, which could contain information on other Ross firearms and Ross automatic knives (among other things). There is much more to the Ross rifle than just the military variants, though that is with what this article seems most concerned. So, in this article the military version of the rifle gets a muddled presentation while the non-military variants and other products receive less-than-comprehensive encyclopedic coverage. I have some great source material if anyone wants to help in writing a Ross Rifle Company article. As for the claim of the existence of a Ross-action machine gun, I move for deletion of the section provided no supporting information becomes available. TeamZissou 16:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Hate to break it to you, but I searched the Huot online & found pictures (Canadian War Museum, IIRC), & they match the description given. How much evidence did you want? Trekphiler 20:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a link? TeamZissou 21:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

After I posted this discussion, the Huot light machine gun article appeared. Trekphiler started it using the same citations, so I'm not sure the article is legitimate. I searched the Canadian War Museum's website[2], but found nothing on the Huot, much less anything on the "Dominion Rifle Factory adapt(ing) the (Ross) action to a light machinegun". I still see no existence of a "Dominion Rifle Factory," though I would expect an article by Trekphiler will be coming along shortly. If the claim is true, then it should definitely be reworded for clarity on both pages. TeamZissou 21:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There was a Candian weapon called the "Huot automatic rifle," but there is nothing to indicate a "light machine gun" of that name existed. I still cannot find any connection between the Ross action and the Huot automatic rifle. TeamZissou 22:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the Huot existed! I did not have time to work it up, but I can add some references later... The name of the man was Joseph Alphonse Huot, he was living in Richmond (here) in Quebec. He developped the idea of the lmg with Sir Ross (who invented a auto-loader handgun (using a very similar cartridge than the .45 Auto, but well before it) and was suspected to work on a autoloading shotgun too. There are some good references of this LMG but I dion't have time to look at this right now. fast fast, there is a mention of that LMG in "Sir Charles Ross and His Rifle" p22 (see references). No, there was no such Dominion Rifle Co., but there was a Dominion Arsenal Of Canada (DAC) (wich is also C.I.L.,IVI, SNC-Tech and now General Dynamics). The factory (Ross Rifle) was took over by the Dominion Of Canada (War Department) in 1917 User:Kalashnikov|Kalashnikov]] 00:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it says an autoloading rifle and a light machine gun... So the LMG it refers to is the Huot Automatic Rifle?, and were there Ross bolts taken from surplus rifles, and were the bolts simply used as blanks to cut new bolts for the Huot (if that occurred), or was Ross involved in the design from the ground up? Was there a "Dominion Rifle Company" of any kind? TeamZissou 00:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ross was definitively involved.... As I say, I run out of time to look for it (but in the reference cited above, it is clear that Ross was directly involved)... I need some time to work it out... Later this week or next week... Ya know, it's all on paper.. so it need time to look at it...Kalashnikov 00:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, okay--you've done good work on here so I trust you. I just had an issue with "converting" a bolt rifle to a machine gun, since I hadn't found any information to support that. It sounds a bit far-fetched. I now accept Ross was involved with the development of a LMG, but turning the Ross rifle into a LMG (as the Huot light machine gun article, and as parts of the Ross rifle article suggest) sounds a little far fetched. TeamZissou 00:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Think you're right, regarding the Huot, but I think it's a good thing to at least cite it here, because it was based on the M10 design. They were very close to fabricate it on an industrial base. I'll add the references later, as per I already said. I just got involved with this article. I started to work on commercial rifles because it was less than imprecise. Then after I'll work on military models and later on side stuff.Kalashnikov 00:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

When the Dominion Of Canada took over the Ross Rifle Co., they named the new company, for a short period of time, Dominion Rifle Factory. So, yes, there was such I thing, I am sorry for my error above. I will re-read my sources for the Huot, and will be ready for feeding more infos about it soon... Kalashnikov 15:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, all. I'd never heard of it before I saw W&W, so I googled it & came back with pix. After TeamZissou challenged, I called the National Parks Service (who operate the arsenal as a historic site, now) & they'd never heard of it... I hadn't got to the sources they suggested, & my local libraries don't have anything specific to the Ross, so I'm glad to know somebody else does. Trekphiler 21:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)