Talk:Rosary

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Rosary article.
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Rosary was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: January 8, 2006
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[edit] Bring back to GA status

I would love to see this brought back to GA status. Anyone else like to help on this project?

Also, I noticed this talk page is really long. Anyone disagree if I archive it?--DizFreak talk Contributions 18:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd be glad to help. And please do archive this page. Dgf32 (talk) 18:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I have now archived the page. Dgf32 (talk) 23:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

We need to edit the external links section down to a reasonable size. There's a lot of repetition of the same material in the links. Does anybody have any idea on establish which links we do need and which links we don't? Dgf32 (talk) 16:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There are too many links. So many that I have not had time to even read through any of them. Reducing the number will actually help. If you try a 2 level hierarchy, that may help determine which to remove. Thanks History2007 (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
What do we want in the external link section? Obviously a copy of the text of the rosary prayers with instructions. The best one I found was a pdf, so maybe we can keep that and find the best website that gives instructions and text for the rosary. We should not link to thinks that have articles already on Wikipedia, for example papal encyclicals, rosary promises, etc. We should also avoid sites with commerical content including advertising. We should also not use sites that promote any kind of theological movement or cause (e.g., "www.maryisgod.org"). I doubt we need more than five or six well chosen links. Dgf32 (talk) 18:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I think we could even get rid of one or two of those sites. Most of the material was already linked to in the See Also section. Internal links are ALWAYS preferred over External links. Dgf32 (talk) 20:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you have done enough good edits on this topic to qualify as the mayor of this page. Therefore, just make a decision as you see fit. History2007 (talk) 01:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Haha. This is the last article I'd want to take any kind of responsibility for, but thanks for the vote of confidence. Dgf32 (talk) 20:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
It is too late now. You have been elected for 6 months... must keep the job. History2007 (talk) 21:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rosary and Chaplet meaning

Chaplet also means a wreath for the head, and 5 decades of the Rosary. 1. a wreath or garland for the head. 2. a string of beads. 3. Roman Catholic Church. a. a string of beads, one-third of the length of a rosary, for counting prayers. b. the prayers recited over this. Dictionary.com

Also, Catholic Encyclopedia says Rosarius means bouquet of roses, so I think Rosarius should be in the article as well as Rosarium. --Maria Bernada (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

"As regards the origin of the name, the word rosarius means a garland or bouquet of roses [1], and it was not unfrequently used in a figurative sense—e.g. as the title of a book, to denote an anthology or collection of extracts. An early legend which after traveling all over Europe penetrated even to Abyssinia connected this name with a story of Our Lady, who was seen to take rosebuds from the lips of a young monk when he was reciting Hail Marys and to weave them into a garland which she placed upon her head. A German metrical version of this story is still extant dating from the thirteenth century. The name "Our Lady's Psalter" can also be traced back to the same period. Corona or chaplet suggests the same idea as rosarium. The old English name found in Chaucer and elsewhere was a "pair of beads", in which the word beads (q.v.) originally meant prayers." --Maria Bernada (talk) 01:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me have a look into this. I'll get back you shortly. Dgf32 (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I've had a look through a variety of sources, and the etymology of the English word "rosary" looks like this: Latin rosa (rose) + Latin arium (room) = Latin rosarium (rose garden). The Latin Rosarium enters Middle French as rosarie, which is used figuratively to mean a "garden of prayers". Dgf32 (talk) 20:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
To answer your question more directly, in Classical Latin, rosarius was either an adjective (rosey) or a noun (rose garden). According to Lewis and Short, rosa, not rosarium was used to refer to wreath or garland of roses. The Catholic Encyclopedia is a wonderful reference for all subjects related to catholicism. However, it's not necessarily infallible, especially when it comes to matters of linguistics and etymologies. Dgf32 (talk) 21:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, do you think the etymology of "rosary" comes from a garland of roses? I can see the relationship between giving a bouquet of roses in prayer or a wreath of roses in prayer, but I'm not aware of any linguistic evidence to suggest that. And the idea of a "garden of prayer" seems to be quite a common theme running through the devotional literature of the period. Dgf32 (talk) 21:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposing changes

Current introduction: The Rosary (from Latin rosarium, "rose garden"; from Middle French rosaire, "rose garden" used figuratively as "garden of prayers")[2]

Proposed: The Rosary (from Middle Latin rosarium, "garland of roses"; from Middle French rosaire, "rose garland")[3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] --Maria Bernada 04:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

None of your references have anything to do with the Middle French rosaire, so why do you now think that it means "rose garland"? I mean, if you want to make a point about the Latin that's fine, but you just can't make up new words in Middle French to fit with your proposed etymology. While a section on etymology would be good for the article, you can't propose multiple etymologies in a parenthetical phrase in the first sentence. I suggest you refocus your efforts on developing a etymology section to explore the subject more fully. Dgf32 (talk) 20:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The last citation is etymological French Dictionary. Possibly not Middle French, sorry about that. Do you have a suggestion as to how the etymological section would look like?--Maria Bernada 04:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
You can get a good idea of how etymology sections are written by looking at those in other articles. Dgf32 (talk) 18:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I noticed all of the sources you found were published in the 19th century, except for one, which was published exactly 100 years ago. You should consider using more current references. A great deal of progress has been made in philology and comparative linguistics since the 19th century. Using more current references would make your task much easier. Dgf32 (talk) 18:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Instead of making it complicated, how about just change it something to this effect: The Rosary (from Latin rosarium, "rose garden"; from Middle French rosaire, "rose garden" used figuratively as "garden of prayers," but understood as "garland of roses" widely for a long time)[9] --Maria Bernada 04:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Simpler is almost always better, so about about the following?
The Rosary (from Latin rosarium, meaning "rose garden"[10] or "garland of roses"[11]) Dgf32 (talk) 04:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I will go ahead and provionsally insert that version into the article. I assume you'll be ok with that version. Dgf32 (talk) 04:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

  1. ^ CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Rosary
  2. ^ "Rosary." Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper. 03 May. 2008.
  3. ^ "In medieval Latin the word rosarium was the name given to a garland of roses to crown the image of the Virgin" Mitchell, James. Significant etymology; or, Roots, stems, and branches of the English language (1908) pg.442
  4. ^ "Rosarium or rosarius, signifying properly a collection or garland of roses" Wedgwood, Hensleigh. A Dictionary of English Etymology (1872) pg. 544
  5. ^ "Rosary] from rosa, rose, is derived rosarium, a garland or chaplet of roses, whence rosary;..."Hall, Whitmore. The principal roots and derivatives of the Latin language 8th edition (1858) pg.8
  6. ^ "ML. rosarium, garland of roses, chaplet of beads, neu. sg. of Lat. rosarius, relating to roses, from rosa, rose." Giltman, Daniel. New International Encyclopedia (1904) pg. 165
  7. ^ "Rosary 1. a chaplet: a garland 'A rosary or chaplet of good works.' The term was formerly often adopted as a title of numerous books, consisting of a garland of flowers, as it were, culled from various authors."Oglivie, John. Imperial Dictionary (1883) pg. 729
  8. ^ "Rosaire, a rosary; from L. rosarium, properly a garland of roses (see chapelet) to crown the image of the Virgin, then a garland or necklace of threaded beads, serving to mark off prayers. Its doublet is rosier, q.v." Brachet, George. Etymological Dictionary of the French Language (1882) pg. 345
  9. ^ "Rosary." Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper. 03 May. 2008.
  10. ^ "Rosary." Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper. 03 May. 2008.
  11. ^ "Rosary". Wedgewood, Hensleigh. A Dictionary of English Etymology. 2nd ed. London: Trubner & Co., 1872. pg 544.