Talk:Ronald Reagan

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[edit] Implementation of ideas in lead

I hate, hate, hate to reopen this can of worms, but I now feel that I need to. There have been a few attempts within in the past days to reword the sentence regarding the implementation of Reagan's ideas. Arcayne has just rewritten it to something I'm not particuarly fond of. As it currently reads:

As president, Reagan implemented new political initiatives as well as economic policies, advocating a limited government and economic laissez-faire philosophy, but as to whether these ideas were successfully implemented is the subject of frequent debate.

I'm not a fan of the "frequent debate", "heated debate", etc. simply because it's not entirely true. So I would remove the "frequent" as "debate" will suffice. But that brings us to the greater point: did Reagan implement all his ideas? Well no, but the majority, yes (see Political positions of Ronald Reagan). He did: put forth and implement his economies policies, built up the military, appointed a woman to the high court, and removed controls on oil prices, among others. He did not: mandate prayer in public schools or abolish the department of education.

So if I'm not mistaken, it was not the extent of which the ideas were successfully implemented (because they were successfully implemented), so much as the amount of which were implemented. Even Barack Obama said, "I do think that for example the 1980 was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not... [W]e want a return to that sense of dynamism and eutrepenturship that had been missing." [1]

I don't have any propositions right now, but (everyone) are we mostly in agreement? And can we reword this? Happyme22 (talk) 00:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I kinda liked my phrasing with but the extent to which the implementation of these ideas was successful is debated. That he tried to implement the two ideas in the quote above is quite clear. However, there is some debate as to how far he got in implementing them. For example, federal spending grew during the Reagan years (mostly on defense, but that's what underlies the debate). Then there was the whole iran contra thing in his second term that restricted his legislative ability. The current phrasing whether they were successfully implemented seems to imply that he failed in pushing the limited government and supply side agenda, which, I think, is not true. I'm not a fan of Reagan, nor am I a fan of supply side economics, but it seems to me that he definitely brought a supply side flavor and the desire for limited government into the American discourse and mind. It would be wrong to imply that he was not successful in pushing that agenda. (In simpler terms, I don't like the current phrasing!) --Regents Park (moult with my mallards) 02:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I really appreciate your view, Regents Park, because you are not a regular editor of the article nor do you support Reagan. And I have to say, I agree with you. And thank you for clarifying your point; I think the "whether they were successfully implemented" pooint your brought up to be very relevant. And as you (and our friend Mr. Obama) said, Reagan did change the trajectory of America through his beliefs and his communication to the people. Happyme22 (talk) 04:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm also going to raise another point: can the success of the implementation of Reagan's policies really be debated? It seems to me as if all we need (and have) is the actual record of what occured. Do you catch my drift? Happyme22 (talk) 21:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that the record itself is subject to interpretation, Hap. It's like describing a tree; no two people are going to have the same view of it. Now, before you say, 'well, they are both looking at a tree', remember that the "tree" in this instance is what Reagan (and the Republican Party) wanted to do. Some of these things happened because they were going to happen anyway. Some things happened because they are largely cyclical (like the economy). Lastly, some people are going to think the subject farts rainbows and craps jelly doughnuts while others are never going to accept that someone they utterly despise can do anything correctly (forgetting the old adage about the busted clock being right at least twice a day). That there is debate is the essence, blessing and curse of a free society. That debate still occurs is not being questioned. We don't get to evaluate the legitimacy of that debate, but instead are charged to mention it, if it is in fact notable. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Correction to Presidents over age 90

Under the Alzheimer's disease section, the article states that only two other presidents have reached the age of 90 (the other two being John Adams and Herbert Hoover). Why is Gerald Ford not included here? He was the oldest former living president with 93 years and 165 days until his death. Since the article is protected, a trusted user must make this correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorlinj (talk • contribs) 21:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added Ford's name. I think it was omitted because Ford turned ninety two years after Reagan, but you are correct it that it is incorrect to say that only three presidents have reached the age of ninety. Thanks for heads up! Best, Happyme22 (talk) 21:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes made by Drz1627

I am just wondering first why you insist saying that his staff was anxious to portray him as recovered, and that Reagan was from then on 'inflexible'. What is your source? DrZebra.com doesn't seem very reliable to me, especially considering that your username is Drz1627. I'm not one to assume bad faith, but your username and your referencing to various Dr. Zebra sites on mulitple pages indicates to me that you are using Wikipedia for promotional reasons. That is prohibited per WP:SOAPBOX.

I am also wondering why the fact that Reagan fell off his horse in 1989, causing a subdural hematoma which doctors feel hastened the onset of Alzheimer's, is irrelevant? Happyme22 (talk) 06:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that we need to offer a bit more good faith. Drz1627 did indeed make some significant changes, very few of which I personally agree with. I think it might have been better for him to discuss his edits, as he could be reasonably assured that altering an FA quality article is going to raise some concerns. I would instead offer D the opportunity to explain his edits and get some feedback before instituting them. Towards that end, i will revert his additions until we are all agreed (at least by consensus) that they are the right edits to make. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 07:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not upset and certainly did not mean to insult DrZ. I just find it very interesting that that his username is the same as the website he has been referencing a plethora of material to. I'm sorry if I came across harshly, as it was not my ultimate intent, but I did want to make that point. That said, I would love to hear what DrZ has to say (and I'm not being sarcastic). Happyme22 (talk) 07:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, then. Let's leave the ball in his court for a day or two and see what happens. Sound fair? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 07:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Of course, as always :) Happyme22 (talk) 07:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Drz1627 here.

Am not really familiar with this talking method, but that's cool -- I'm happy to learn it. Sorry to have been abrupt in making the changes. So, everthing is referenced on the doctorzebra web site. The statement about the staff's anxiousness is from Daniel Ruge, Reagan's physician, as quoted on page 74 of the Abram's book. It seems to me important to mention this in a summary article, because there has been this incorrect notion that Reagan bounced back quickly, and Ruge disagrees with this, too (also quoted in Abrams). The fact that Wikipedia thought Reagan recovered quickly is testament to the success of the staff's efforts.
The quote about Reagan's inflexibility comes from Michael Deaver, who I think we'd agree, was in a position to make such an observation and also not motivated by animus to make such a statement. Again, the source is referenced on doctorzebra. I think that if you say what Reagan thought about God and the shooting, you're obligated to mention how it changed him.
The hematoma is indeed irrelevant to Alzheimer dementia. They are two separate disease processes. Yes, they impact the same organ, but that's not what the Wikipedia article said. It said the hematoma might have accelerated the Alzheimer disease, and it quoted a reference that did not say that. There is an epidemiological association between head trauma and Alzheimer disease, but no causative association has been established, so far as I know, so I'd have to say that it makes no medical sense to talk about trauma exacerbating Alzheimer disease. Ultimately, I thought it was simpler to remove mention of the hematoma, especially since it had been pointed out that this was a summary article and details should lie elsewhere. Had the discussion been about possible additional causes of Reagan's dementia, the hematoma would have been relevant, but the section was talking specifically about his Alzheimer dementia. Let me know if other questions.

Drz1627 (talk) 09:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and while we're on it, I would be in favor of removing Reagan's bon mots from the section on his shooting in this article. They can be moved to the shooting article. Yes, they add color to the tale, but if there is a concern about length of this section, then I don't think facts should be sacrificed for color. As currently written, the shooting section doesn't even mention that Reagan lost over half his blood volume and that the surgeons thought if he'd gotten there a few minutes later he very likely would have died. It would adequate to say Reagan remained in good spirits throughout and let it go at that (although he did panic when he heard a surgeon say "this is it"). Drz1627 (talk) 09:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

DrZ, I want to appologize to you for acting quick and rash last night in my first comment. It was roughly 1 AM my time and I probably should have been in bed :)
** No problem.
That said, I would first like to comment on your source, DrZebra.com. At the Medical history of American Presidents drzebra.com index page, there is a disclaimer reading, "I am not a historian. Nor am I expert on any of the Presidents. So there are certainly errors here. If you find one, please tell me. Every page has a "Contact Us" link. I apologize in advance if I have stepped on your professional field of study. Also note that I do not usually cite primary sources; I cite what I read." That's not good, because the overall source is then questioned for its reliability.
** You are overblowing the disclaimer. (1) It tells who the author is, it says the author is mortal (i.e. everyone makes mistakes), and it invites readers to submit corrections. This is absolutely the way to build a reliable data source -- open and transparent. I'd venture that most of the sources the Wikipedia article sites are not written by historians, are written by mortals, and have made errors. Heck, you admit you make errors. Should I not trust you? (2) If you look at the Medical History of American Presidents web site, you see that every statement is slavishly referenced. This is a higher standard of rigor than most Wikipedia sources.
I don't think I'm 'overblowing the disclaimer' at all. It flat out states that the website contains information that may not be factually accurate, which is in violation of WP:RS. Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*** By this logic, any publication that prints a correction, e.g. the New York Times or the Harvard Law Review, admits some of their information is factually inaccurate. By this logic, any such publication does not meet Wikipedia's reliability standards, which is obviously not true. Regardless, moving the doctorzebra sources to the Wikipedia article, as agreed to below, makes this topic of discussion moot.
As for the staff covering up the fact he did not bounce back quickly; is that really that big of a deal?
** Any time the staff of the President tries to mis-portray reality about a substantive matter, it is a "big deal." It was a big enough deal for a Stanford professor (Dr. Abrams) to write a book about. And we're not talking solely about physical recuperation. The staff had Reagan sign legislation the morning after his surgery, when he was getting morphine and was disoriented (Abrams).
I mean did it impact the administration and have an effect on the country? Here, five months after the attempt, in August and before October, Reagan took decisive action and fired 12,000 striking workers. Evidently, he wasn't lying in bed; he may not have been fully recovered, but it doesn't appear that the staffs' covering anything up impacted the country. More information is given here from the Miller Center for Public Affairs. Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*** Three objections to this response: (1) Language like "it doesn't appear" does not sound very confident. This type of hedging language would not pass muster in a medical journal. (2) Saying that Reagan acted decisively means nothing. The question is not whether Reagan was being decisive -- it is about his decision-making as relates to his physical health. (3) The page you reference didn't say anything about the staff's intentions -- is there a more specific reference?
I know you said that it is mentioned in Mr. Abrams' book, but a quick Google search shows nothing on the matter on than the Reagan assassination attempt Wikipedia article cited to drzebra.com.
** Abrams' did more than a quick Google search. Note the subtitle of his book: "Confusion, Disability, and the 25th Amendment in the Aftermath of the Attempted Assassination of Ronald Reagan." I have not seen challenges or refutations of the book's findings. I have no connection with Abrams.
On the contrary, many sources - recent sources - said that he recovred quickly. I'm not doubting what Mr. Abrams said, because surely a 70 year old man did not spring up from his bed two weeks after he was shot, but I also don't think that every source that says Reagan recovered somewhat-quickly has been influenced by the former White House staff.
** You are making my point exactly. Some 70 year old men, with some gunshot wounds *will* spring up two weeks later. That was not the case here. His wound came very close to killing him. He lost half his blood and was slow to recover. This sense of gravity is totally absent from the article, and instead we get Reagan quips.
I have no problem saying that his wound came very close to killing him; I for one think it should definitely be in this article. For further reference, I would read this from the Miller Center for Public Affairs. Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*** That's not a medical reference, and there is not a lot of medical detail there. If you're going to describe a medical situation, the best source is the medical people. Abrams is a physician, and really did his homework. His chapter, supplemented by an article by Dr. Beahrs (one of Reagan's docs; referenced on doctorzebra), are wonderfully detailed.
I don't think 'inflexible' is the right word to describe Reagan after the assassination attempt, because what kind of inflexibility are we talking about? I know that in this instance, we are trying to say that he was stubborn, but then it may cause confusion with the other 'inflexible', or not able to bend, because he was shot. Far-fetched? I don't think so, because not everyone who comes to Wikipedia is a scholar, doctor, or even someone well educated. I think the first description about Reagan believing God spared his life for him to fulfill a greater purpose will suffice.
** So, absent further research on this specific topic, the best we can do is quote Deaver exactly, and let the reader make up their own mind.
I disagree due to possible confusion. What type of 'inflexibility' is Deaver talking about? I presume he means being stubborn, but it could also give the false impression that he was unable to physically bend after being shot. Saying that he believed God spared him for a reason will suffice. Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*** Sorry, I thought you had read the doctorzebra web page. It says: "Former aide Michael Deaver says Reagan became more stubborn after the shooting. Reagan believed that he was "chosen" for his role by a higher power, and that the shooting was a reminder of this. He therefore decided to more closely follow his own instincts." How can this be construed as referring to physical flexibility? I want to assume good faith, but the comment about physical inflexibility is pretty weird if you'd read the site that you criticize.
As for the hematoma, I think it is relevant. It attracted media coverage and is noteworthy to mention.
** Any health issue of the President attracts media attention, so that has no significance.
However, I think you have a good point about the doctors saying that it accelerated Alzheimer's. True, I too cannot find it in this source, which was probably an error of mine a while back. But if anything, Nancy Reagan's 2002 book I Love You, Ronnie does say that doctors feel this accident hastened the onset of Alzheimer's disease (page 180).
** OK, Mrs. Reagan wrote what she wrote, but I don't think we'd say she is the most unbiased source. The doctors' statement is at odds what medical science today knows about the link between head trauma and Alzheimer disease. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17618986 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15959838 -- note the serious hedging language -- the link is just not there yet, meaning the doctors statement goes beyond what medical science can justify. If the doctors' conclusion is mentioned, then appropriate caveats need to be mentioned, too. There is just no way the doctors can be certain about their conclusion.
I agree that Mrs. Reagan is a biased source, but I don't think she'd make up the fact that doctors told her his 1989 fall probably hastened Alzheimer's. But those articles you linked are very interesting. I'm going wait for additional opinions on this one. Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*** I don't think she'd make it up either, but she may have misunderstood what the doctors said, or the doctors may have said something that is not scientifically rigorous.
DrZ, you seem to know a lot about the medical field, but since you're new here I think I should point you toward Wikipedia's no original research policy.
** I didn't do any original research for this. Among people who care about such things, it's widely known there is no established causal link between trauma and Alzheimer disease.
And about the sub-articles, thank you for trying to adhere to summary style, but there isn't an article titled Ronald Reagan's Alzheimer's disease so there really isn't anything to summarize here and place details somewhere else.
** I think it's reasonable to say something like: (1) In 1994 Reagan announced the diagnosis of Alzheimer disease in a hand-written letter to the nation, having been symptomatic for at least two years. [NY Times] (2) There was controversy about him being symptomatic as President. [Paragraph as is]. (3) Mrs. Reagan says doctors thought head trauma played a role in the course of Reagan's Alzheimer disease. Reagan fell from a horse in 1989, and he struck his head in 19__. A subdural hematoma, thought to result from one or both of these events, was surgically treated in 19__. [cite the NY Times article for all this.] Head trauma is generally not accepted as a cause of Alzheimer disease [cite Pubmed articles].
I think that is a bit too biased. I won't get into the detail now, but I will later if requested. Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*** I'm requesting, because I don't see any statement that is biased. The NY Times article talks about the duration of his symptoms and the two episodes of head trauma. And if it were accepted by the medical profession that head trauma caused Alzheimer disease, you'd see every baby-boomer in the country paranoid about concussions! (Seriously.)
Then there are Reagan's 'bon mots', or witty remarks, in the assassination attempt section. I do not think that 'Honey I forgot to duck' or 'I hope you're all Republicans' should be omitted, for they are what everyone remembers about the assassination attempt. That said, I think we have some room for some extra details about the attempt itself and medical procedures. But I don't think that we can use drzebra.com as a source because of reliability reasons (see above). There plenty of other relibale sources with details of the attempt. Thanks, Happyme22 (talk) 18:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
** It's reasonable to move the sources Dr. Zebra uses into the Wikipedia article as sources. That should allay your concerns. I would still leave Dr. Zebra cited as an additional source, so people can read further and get context online, without having to run to the library.
That is true, provided they pass Wikipedia's reliable source policy. Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*** OK, sounds good. That eliminates the impact of any concerns about the reliability of the doctorzebra web site.

My remarks are interdigitated above, set off with **. Drz1627 (talk) 23:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I just have one question: are you Dr. Zebra, the person who has written the website drz.com? Happyme22 (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Brother, assume good faith. I have questions about you, too, but I am assuming good faith. My comments set off with *** Drz1627 (talk) 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes made by Drz1627 - arbitrary break 1

My two cents' worth: Having read the discussion, I think both arguments are sound As the article is about Reagan, his reaction to the shooting (well-documented and non-scripted comments) should be allowed to remain. Getting shot is no laughing matter, yet Reagan turned it into one, which is notable.
That being said, Drz1627 makes several good points. Personally, I don't really care if there was a triggering event for the Alzheimer's; it isn't really important to the article, as he could have simply fallen off a horse and a full medical exam could have revealed the quiescent or the small initial symptoms of the disease. Or the fall might have caused it. I am not really sure it is a cause for concern here, as the connection between trauma and Alzheimer's is noted but (as of yet) neither understood nor proven.
I think the source is a good one, but it might be nice to have back-up on that reliability. Ask the good folk over at the RS noticeboard, and get their opinions. They love doing that sort of stuff - cuckoo for Coco Puffs, and all that.
I am not sure what about the proffered statement is biased:

'(1) In 1994 Reagan announced the diagnosis of Alzheimer disease in a hand-written letter to the nation, having been symptomatic for at least two years. [NY Times] (2) There was controversy about him being symptomatic as President. [Paragraph as is]. (3) Mrs. Reagan says doctors thought head trauma played a role in the course of Reagan's Alzheimer disease. Reagan fell from a horse in 1989, and he struck his head in 19__. A subdural hematoma, thought to result from one or both of these events, was surgically treated in 19__. [cite the NY Times article for all this.] Head trauma is generally not accepted as a cause of Alzheimer disease [cite Pubmed articles].'

Perhaps Hap could explain why he thinks it is. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I would seriously be happy to. But if it could wait until tomorrow, that would be superb. I went sailing today and just got home; after many years, I still haven't quite gotten my sea legs and I'm going to need a little rest :) But tomorrow for sure. I also think Arcayne hit it right on the mark regarding the assassination attempt situation. Sure, medical sources are great, but sources from independent centers such as the Miller Center should not be ruled out. Here, Reagan's staff is recalling that day in March and how it impacted him and the administration. As for the fall hastening Alzheimer's, apparently there are conflicting reports and I will try to go into that tomorrow when I talk about the proposed paragraph. Until then, Happyme22 (talk) 03:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I've had my rest and here it goes:

  • My biggest problem with the proposed paragraph is that it asserts Nancy Reagan is wrong. It presents what she said happened, and then disproves it with medical journal articles. That is unacceptable, as we have two reliable sources and are saying one is right and the other must be mistaken. Now what we can do to solve that problem is simply mention the 1989 fall in the "Post-presidency" section, not connecting it to Alzheimer's; we would omit Mrs. Reagan's response and the medical articles to allow the reader to made up his/her own mind on the matter. After reading the Alzheimer's section, the reader may wonder if the fall contributed to Reagan's disease, but the reader may not. That is the most neutral route and will eliminate WP:NPOV and WP:RS problems.
  • Next, the paragraph says Reagan was symptomatic for two years. Yet that phrase comes from only one person. Others (such as fmr. White House Council Fred F. Fielding) noticed nothing. Would it not be better to go with what his doctors said, which is "Over the past 12 months we began to notice from President Reagan's test results symptoms indicating the possibility of early-stage Alzheimer's disease. Additional testing and an extensive observation over the past few weeks have led us to conclude that President Reagan is entering the early stages of this disease." (source).
  • And what about the last paragraph about Alzheimer's progressing, Reagan's hip replacement, and his receaching the age of 90? That needs to be retained.

As a result of this, I propose:

In November 1994, Reagan announced that he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, an incurable neurological disorder which ultimately causes brain cells to die. [source] His doctors said that he had been exibiting symptoms indicating the possibility of early-stage Alzheimer's for the past year, [source] and was ultimately diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic in August 1994. [source: Reagan, Nancy. I Love You, Ronnie. New York, Random House, 2002] At the age of 83, in a hand-written letter to the American people, the former president wrote, "I now being the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life. I know that for America, there will always be a bright dawn ahead. Thank you, my friends. May God always bless you." [source]

After his diagnosis, there was speculation over whether Reagan had demonstrated symptoms of mental degeneration while in office. [second and third paragraphs as they are]

I enjoy these discussions! Best, Happyme22 (talk) 00:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I give up. Why is unacceptable to present evidence that Nancy Reagan might be wrong? And why do we not accept the New York Times report of two years of clear symptoms? All of this fits with just about everything known about Alzheimer disease, and I am sorry that you are unfamiliar with the literature about the disease, but I am not going to take the time and teach a class on it. And, regrettably, I am abandoning my presumption of good faith. My suspicions of a hagiographic slant to this article are confirmed by a remark saying it's "unacceptable" to present the possibility that Nancy Reagan could have made an error. I find that remark totally beyond the pale. I regret the time I have invested trying to improve this article. Drz1627 (talk) 01:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think you are interpreting my comment about Mrs. Reagan incorrectly. What is unacceptable is discrediting a reliable source, which is what is done in your proposed paragraph. The best thing to do, because we have two conflicting reliable sources, is allow the reader to make up his/her own mind by mentioning it but not connecting it to Alzheimer's, which I've outlined and proposed above. Your assertion that this article is a "hagiography" is completely false; I am a Republican but the article has Arcayne, a Democrat, to balance out the views. You'll see that we have worked together on multiple issues. Happyme22 (talk) 03:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, Hap, what we have here are two sources that seemingly contradict each other. We do not have to decide who is right, so we present them side by side, and let the reader make up their mind. Nancy doesn't have a medical degree, and Ronnie was her hubbie, so she may not have all the facts, and is completely willing to do whatever is necessary to protect the memory of her husband - that is only to be expected. We have medical citations noting a connection, but not a specific link. We have to say that, I am thinking. Don't give up, Drz - Hap is a pretty stubborn guy, but he does admit when he's a bit right of neutral ground. You just have to take the time to point out where the issue truly is. He apparently knows them, so he's maybe a bit too close to the subject to be neutral, but he does make a serious effort to be fair. Give him the benefit of the doubt.
Hap, to be clear, Nancy doesn't get more authority 'juice' over medical experts, and let's be frank - I wouldn't trust Reagan's former cabinet with a used toothbrush. Their statements are - at best - bordering on sycophantic posturing. They get no rhythm with me whatsoever. Drz makes excellent points, and when presented with medical info, we will use it over Nancy's remembrances every time (and twice on Sunday). I won't take the cheap shot of comparing science to horoscopesg, but others will, if there is no allowance for reliable medical citation. The one thing we have to be on the lookout for is synthesis. Let's everyone calm down and keep talking. We will arrive at a solution. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that the solution is right around the corner. Yes, Arcayne, they do contradict themselves. But that does not mean that neither is reliable. How about this:

In July 1989, the Reagans took a trip to Mexico, where Reagan was thrown off a horse and taken to a hospital for tests. The Reagans returned to the U.S. and visited the Mayo Clinic, where they were told President Reagan had a head concussion and subdural hematoma. It was sugically treated after the prognosis.

In November 1994, Reagan announced that he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, an incurable neurological disorder which ultimately causes brain cells to die. [source] His doctors said that he had been exibiting symptoms indicating the possibility of early-stage Alzheimer's for the past year, [source] and was ultimately diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic in August 1994. [source: Reagan, Nancy. I Love You, Ronnie. New York, Random House, 2002. p. 180] At the age of 83, in a hand-written letter to the American people, the former president wrote, "I now being the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life. I know that for America, there will always be a bright dawn ahead. Thank you, my friends. May God always bless you." [source] Nancy Reagan asserts that her husband's 1989 fall hastened the onset of Alzheimer's disease, [source: Reagan, Nancy. I Love You, Ronnie. New York, Random House, 2002. p. 180] citing what doctors told her, although head trauma has not been conclusively proven to accelerate Alzheimer's. [source: pubmed articles]

After his diagnosis, there was speculation over whether Reagan had demonstrated symptoms of mental degeneration while in office. [second and third paragraphs as they are]

This version seems to encompass all that we have talked about. And just for the record: I do not know the Reagans, but I did meet the president and Nancy. Happyme22 (talk) 05:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for your support.

Now back to the show.  :-)

Am not keen about the proposed paragraph. Stylistic problems: (1) Is better to tell the story like a newspaper column (i.e. big points to little points) rather than chronologically. A reader who sees the section header "Alzheimer disease" will be confused if the section starts out with the horse incident. (2) Way too many words. Can really be tightened up. And, Mexico is not important. (3) Some of the sentences don't make sense (typos?).

From the content standpoint: (1) I found a statement by other Reagan docs that symptoms started in 1992. This is in one of the NY Times articles the article references already. (2) The description of Alzheimer disease is uncool. Lots of diseases cause brain cells to die. The hallmark of Alzheimer disease is progressive and irreversible dementia. Dementia is a technical medical term that readers can click on and read about if they are puzzled.

The big point of discussion is Nancy Reagan's statement. Happy, can you quote for me exactly what she says in the "Ronnie" book? I ask this because one of the NY Times articles gives a very sensible statement from Dr. Ruge on this subject (which I have put into the draft below). It does not mention Alzheimer disease -- it mentions failing memory, a crucial difference -- plus he gives the correct caveat. I can get on board with Ruge's statement, and I suspect it may be the statement that was said to Nancy. So the question is: how different is Nancy's text?

The draft:

In August 1994, physicians at the Mayo Clinic diagnosed the 83-year-old Reagan with Alzheimer's disease, a progressive and irreversible form of dementia.[source: Reagan, Nancy. I Love You, Ronnie. New York, Random House, 2002. p. 180] Reagan publicly announced the diagnosis in a [hand-written letter] to the American people that November, saying "I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life. I know that for America, there will always be a bright dawn ahead. Thank you, my friends. May God always bless you."
According to his physicians, Reagan had displayed symptoms indicating the possibility of early-stage Alzheimer's in 1992[2] or 1993.source
*** Slight rewording of first sentence of this paragraph; rest copied verbatim from current article, except as noted*** There was, however, considerable speculation over whether he had symptoms of the disease while in office.[175] Former CBS White House Press Corps Lesley Stahl recalls in her book Reporting Live, an "unsettling" interview with the president where "a vacant Reagan barely seemed to realize anyone else was in the room", and that before he "reemerged into alertness" she recalls that "I had come that close to reporting that Reagan was senile."[176] Reagan would also encounter occasional difficulty recalling names and titles, notably while meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone wherein he repeatedly referred to his Vice President as "Prime Minister Bush."[177] ***cut out redundant sentence about symptoms appearing in 1992 per doctors, and tidied next sentence. *** However, his former Chief of Staff James Baker considered "ludicrous" the idea of Reagan sleeping during cabinet meetings.[179]
***new paragraph*** Complicating the picture, Reagan suffered two episodes of head trauma in the years just before his diagnosis. After being thrown from a horse in 1989, a subdural hematoma was found and surgically treated. In 1994 he struck his head hard enough in an airplane to warrant comment from physicians ***this was in one of the articles; I'll find it***. Reagan's one-time physician, Dr. Daniel Ruge, has said it is possible, but not certain, that the horse accident affected the course of Reagan's failing memory.[3]
*** old sentence in bullpen, awaiting exact quote *** Nancy Reagan asserts that her husband's 1989 fall hastened the onset of Alzheimer's disease, [source: Reagan, Nancy. I Love You, Ronnie. New York, Random House, 2002. p. 180] citing what doctors told her, although head trauma has not been conclusively proven to accelerate Alzheimer's. [source: pubmed articles]

Thanks. Drz1627 (talk) 09:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm glad to know that we are back on the same page! :) Here's the exact mention from Mrs. Reagan's 2002 book I Love You, Ronnie:

I've always had the feeling that the severe blow to his head in 1989 hastened the onset of Ronnie's Alzhiemer's. The doctors think so too. In the years leading up to the diagnosis of the disease, in August 1994, he had not shown symptoms of the illness. I didn't suspect that Ronnie was ill when we went back to the Mayo Clinic that summer for our regular checkup. When the doctors told us they'd found symptoms of Alzheimer's, I was dumbfounded. Ronnie's fall from the horse had worried me terribly, of course, and I'd had to urge him to take time out to recover after his operation. But I had seen no signs of anything else. [pg. 180]

See if that helps with anything. And as of now, I like your version above (and I will comment more once your proposal is completely finished). Again, I think we are very close to a solution! Thanks all, Happyme22 (talk) 22:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well I've restructured the section with DrZ's basic draft in mind. I think it is a nice compromise. Happyme22 (talk) 02:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Limited" Government?

This article states, "As president, Reagan implemented new political initiatives as well as economic policies, advocating a limited government...." and then goes on to say that the "the extent to which the implementation of these ideas was successful is debated." Actually, there's really nothing to "debate," is there? The government deficit TRIPLED under Reagan, who racked up the biggest peacetime deficits in the history of the United States. To say that it is "debatable" as to whether Reagan succeeded in his stated goal of "limited government" is flat-out wrong. Government spending, in fact, exploded under Reagan.

[edit] "No Criticism?"

I find it kind of surprising there is no section on criticism of Reagan in this article... People think he is some godman.... Me thinks he is just another rull of the mill supporters of those who can already support themselves, and everyone else is in the dust... Breaking the ATCU was just a despicable thing to do, when you have a job where you are basically holding thousands of lives in your hand everyday, and millions over your career, you should have the right to have better working conditions if it is needed.SargJohnLennon (talk) 18:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If you read the article, you will find that plenty of criticisms are there. But per WP:CRITICISM, we do not reserve a section entirely devoted to criticism or critical views. Happyme22 (talk) 22:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, you know, this is a user driven encyclopedia. If you feel that the ATCU section does not do a good job of conveying what happened with the ACTU strike, feel free to add text to that section, using WP:RS of course. --Regents Park (roll amongst the roses) 02:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Ha, that's a nice theory and nice idea but the cadre of historical revisionists on Wikipedia will immediately revert it, regardless of how well sourced it is.--Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 02:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
With respect, Aujord, if you feel the article is missing something, roll up your sleeves (like everyone else here has done) and seek out some citations that support your statements. Anyone here can attest to the fact that historical revisionists get zero rhythm from me. Rather than complain about how the article sucks ass, maybe you could work to make it better. I look forward to your cited stuff. You do make a point though; if you don't source it to neutral associations (as neutral as, say, the Heritage Foundation - lol), you are allowing the commentary to be attacked. It is going to have to be good stuff to be included, since we've managed to weed out a significant amount of garbage that some have tried to insinuate into the article. Those folk are long gone. The ones wanting a good article are still here. I hope you will be too. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. I included a citation, didn't seem to matter, the Heritage Foundation? The book I cited was published by Oxford University Press and written by a professor of history at the University of Arizona. I don't have a bone to pick with Reagan, even kind of like the guy, but I came to try to make the article a little clearer I was reverted. I was also belittled by you for "complaining this article sucks ass". Tell me, what would make me want to work to make this article better after that? --Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
As a note, I reverted back, and outlined my reasons in the section below, earlier dismissed as "complaining this article sucks ass". Do people actually take you seriously? Sheesh. I am not going to edit war, or bicker any longer. It just isn't worth it to be summarily dismissed and belittled, in the end I can take solace in knowing that anyone who really wanted to find out about Reagan need only visit a library where no one gets to rewrite the past in an instant to suit their worldview. --Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 10:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, why don't we try that again, Aujord? Please bring the citation to the discussion page, and we can find out what issue folk had with it. That seems to be a better course than throwing up your hands in despair. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 13:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Here's the citation that was so unacceptable to Happyme22: Schaller, Michael. Reckoning with Reagan, Oxford University Press, New York City: 1992, p. 160, (ISBN 0195069153). That's it.--Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 01:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unexplained reversion

Someone just reverted a neutral one-sentence addition inexplicably with an edit summary of "true but blah blah blah no one definitively showed it blah blah ". The problem is that the sentence didn't say that someone definitely showed it but to not include it gives a totally false impression of the event. Lets see, quote from North's memoirs "President Reagan knew everything". Your reversion was completely unjustified. Completely. I have revereted.--Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 02:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This is the sentence: "Later, both Oliver North and John Poindexter asserted that Reagan knew about and encouraged the plan". This revisionism non sense that Reagan knew nothing of the Iran -Contra plan is just crap. It is revisionist history. If the sentence is true there is no reason to not include it, especially not the revisionist-history-reason that was given in the reversion. I can see no reason to not include it. If the reversion that occurred is typical of the attitude of Wikipedians surrounding this article I can see no reason not continue with a detailed critique and opening of a FARC.--Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 02:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I challenge you to produce a source, written by a historian, that state Reagan knew nothing, my sentence didn't even say he knew everything just that members of his inner circle said he did. The fact of the matter is, he knew everything, and you know it. I cant believe I even have to justify this. Wikipedia is in a poorer state of affairs than I thought when it comes to history if this is what a history featured article looks like. --Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 02:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
And the Tower Commission was a joke, as were all of the committees and panels that investigated this, hamstrung by the executive's refusal to release key documents as well as North's shredding party at the NSC office. Who ever reverted this really needs to become better acquainted with the real history of the United States.--Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 02:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it's not that big of deal. Fester in ignorance for all I care, at least this will be here for people to see when they question the accuracy of this article. Based on your senseless reversion, I have no interest in working with you. Page unwatched. --Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 04:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Could you supply some citations to reinforce those statements, please? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 13:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

No. Read a book. The citation I supplied was deleted because apparently peer reviewed literature is disallowed by the Republican party. Have fun with this poor article. Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (talk) 01:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You might want to really consider your posts before actually hitting the return key, sport. I am pretty sure that suggesting that your fellow editors - simply trying to help you get your views reflected - read a book is not the best way to get them to advocate your cause, or continue to listen to your rant. Perhaps you came here just to soapbox your opinion your piece. Maybe you should also consider taking the time to learn how Wikipedia works before coming here and expecting us to fall in line with your views. When you feel like working with us instead of calling us shills of the Republicans (which is a pretty tedious and astoundingly uninformed - not to mention uncivil - accusation).
When you get some citations, come on back, and we'll do this right. Until then, you are wasting our - and your - time. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 11:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)