Talk:Ronald McDonald

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To-do list for Ronald McDonald:	edit · history · watch · refresh
copyedit, find references, trim unreferenced - get 5, add some criticism
Priority 1 (top)

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Contents 1 Old stuff 2 Geoffrey Giuliano 3 Ronald in Japan 4 Brent Spiner 5 lol internet 6 Bio 7 ridiculous shame 8 suggestion 9 Willard Scott as Ronald McDonald 10 this article needs major cleanup 11 The Article Name has Strangely Changed 12 Popular culture 13 Media:Headline text 14 Merge proposal 15 Subtle Vandalism / Spam, unfollowed lead, or what? 16 Willard Scott created Ronald McDonald 17 This article is biased. 18 Who created Ronald McDonald 18.1 Can we move on?

[edit] Old stuff

Why is there a picture of Mr. Bean in the 'Monda Lisa?' I don't know how to fix this. -134.50.75.123 06:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The ronald mcdonald material concerning willard scott and george voorhees was correct, documentable and verified by me personally. I have seen the costume and a newspaper clipping, as well as been told the story by the 2 co-creators in front of another clown that was a contemporary witness. The information is not disputed by mcdonalds. It should be restored.Pedant 22:02, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page mention the odd (and actionable) relationship between McDonaldLand and H.R. Puffenstuff? I would do it myself, but I am on vacation and so it would be immoral of me to do anything like work, I am sure you understand. [[PaulinSaudi 18:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)]]

Only two quotes on this page, and they're both from former Ronald actors complaining about how much they hated their jobs. Doesn't strike me as NPOV. DaveTheRed 06:24, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I added those two quotes at a time when the article was still rather short and stubbish. I wasn't trying to push any agenda; I just thought that they were relevant. If you think they bias the article, then I would recommend adding some less or oppositely biased quotes rather than removing the two that are already there. Psychonaut 09:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

All of the quotes I could find about Ronald are either a) advertising, b) anti-McDonalds or c) jokes, none of which help in this situation. Truthfully I hardly care passionately about this. I'm content to let the NPOV issue remain academic. It strikes me though that the quotes relate more to the business aspect of McDonalds than to the character himself. Perhaps we could move them to the McDonald's page? DaveTheRed 18:39, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Geoffrey Giuliano

There is some suggestion that Geoff Giuliano has exaggerated his role as Ronald to boost his campaign against the company; that in fact, he only played the clown at personal appearances, possibly in a local TV commercial or two, but never in a national spot. Brithgob 03:23, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Exactly--can anyone nail this one down once and for all? Giuliano's resume on IMDB says he did commericals, but in an interview (http://www.johnrussell.name/recipes/ronald.htm) he said that he made 50 grand (and that was Canadian) around 1980. That doesn't seem like nearly enough if he was making commercials for them. Also, everything he describes in interviews sounds like the "personal appearances" Ronald, which would make him just one of MANY. Furthermore, David Green, who worked for McDonalds in various marketing posts beginning in 1972 and who was U.S. Senior Vice President of Marketing at the time of the McLibel trial in England testified that he did not know of an actor named Geoffrey Giuliano playing the role of a "principal" Ronald McDonald. Should this be included somehow? The url for that last one is http://www.mcspotlight.org/case/trial/verdict/verdict_jud2b.html Tattooconnection 01:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, here is some more information I uncovered that shows that Geoffrey Giuliano was definitely NOT a "primary Ronald actor" (i.e., appeared in television commercials)--as the current wiki version states. First, see the following article, which originally appeared in the Wall Street Journal:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-ronald060203,0,184908.story?coll=bal-business-indepth

According to this article, a "personal appearances" Ronald makes anywhere between 40 thousand and 100 thousand per year, depending on the number of appearances they make. The article states that an actor who portrays Ronald in television commercials makes 300 thousand per year. The following source says Giuliano made 50 thousand per year:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1991/03/1991-03-03.shtml. Granted, this was some time ago, but taking into account differences due to the Canadian-American exchange rate (he worked in Canada), and the fact that the total salary for the "personal appearances" Ronald goes up somewhat with a larger number of personal appearances made, it's very clear that his salary was within the range paid to "personal appearances" Ronalds but that it was not NEARLY enough of a salary for a "primary" Ronald actor. He should be removed from the list of primary Ronald actors currently included in the entry. I know that a lot of people care about the Ronald McDonald entry a lot and have put a lot of work into it, so I'll just put the facts out there and give all aspiring Ronald McDonald editors a chance to comment before I make the change. Thanks, Tattooconnection 03:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ronald in Japan

Why is there NOTHING talking about the recent girl Ronald in Japan? --daunrealist 20:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Like I'm certain many westerners, I've never heard of a girl Ronald. Add it yourself if you know more then us - that is after all the point of Wikipedia Lochok 11:26, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you talking about this? It's just someone dressing up in a homemade outfit (in the Phillipines, not Japan).--Wasabe3543 21:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

That was just a short marketing gimmick in Japan. It was on TV and in print ads for a while and her name was never given.

Also, the statement about Ronald's name being "Donald" because of a difficulty in pronunciation is false and has been a continuous stereotype which I find offensive. People named Ronald, Ronaldino, or Ronaldo live in Japan and are refered to by the Japanese with a pronunciation more appropriate than the transliteration of "Donald".

However, McDonald's does repeat this assertion about pronunciation on one of their web sites: [1]--Wasabe3543 00:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In actuality, the first American citizen to visit and live in Japan during the closure of the country was a man named Ronald McDonald, a worker on a whaling ship who departed from the ship and onto an island near Hokkaido, and eventually became notorious and famous amongst the Japanese rulers of the time. He is mentioned in history textbooks, Japanese language textbooks for English speakers, and is fairly well known by those with knowledge of Japanese history. "Donald McDonald" was adopted to prevent confusion and to keep people from thinking that McDonald's was referencing this historical figure. In fact, I came to this page hoping to find a disambiguation to learn more about this man.

I am going to remove the referenced line in the article but I do not yet have a source for the real Ronald McDonald (who does deserve his own entry) so I will wait to update this portion. If anyone else has a source feel free to do so. Smoove K 21:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is what you were thinking of: Ranald_MacDonald --Xyzzyplugh 00:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The "girl Ronald" isn't really Ronald, it's supposed be an attractive woman dressed as Ronald. No more no less. See here. [2] GracieLizzie 13:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The assertion that the "r" sound is similar, or the same as, the "d" sounds doesn't ring true at all. I did study Japanese for a year. I'm not an expert, but anyone who's studied basic Japanese knows that all the sounds in the Japanese language using hiragana (or katakana as the case may be) are distinct sounds. So, "ro" or "ra" are completely diffrent sounds from "do," or "da." If anything, "do" and "da" would sound closer to "to" and "ta." --70.77.37.70 09:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brent Spiner

Is there any truth to the rumor that Star Trek: The Next Generation co-star Brent Spiner played Ronald McDonald early in his career? - Jess Ragan

I really don't think so. And since this addition was made by an anon who didn't give any reference, and I can't find any support through Google for this bit of information, I'm removing it from the article. - Brian Kendig 07:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] lol internet

Should there be a reference to steamsteamlol.ytmnd.com the "lol internet" YTMND somewhere? -ComputerBox

No. Guy 09:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "Kyle Stephenson" being listed with Santa Claus and Ronald McDonald as the US' most recognizable icons is an act of vandalism on the article. Someone should verify & remove it. -LGS

[edit] Bio

What is an unrelated biography doing in this article? A simple line saying "The character takes his name from..." would suffice. If the guy is notable, then he should get his own article. This subject could also use a dab page. Rklawton 20:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ridiculous shame

the article is fully vandalized... can some body fix it?

Yep, I did. —The Great Llama ^talk 18:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

-Fixed the pic. This guy is friendlier. :)

[edit] suggestion

First of all, thanks for llama man for fixing the article. but I'm here to suggest a protection for the article, to avoid vandals, cause its very proeminent between anti-american user —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.153.54.125 (talk • contribs)

Lots of articles are like that. This particular article isn't vandalized very much by comparison. It's also very easy to remove vandalism, so it's no big deal. In fact, it takes us much less time to fix an article than it does to break one. Rklawton 19:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, since the majority of this article does not cite sources, it is getting hard to tell what is vandalism and what is supposed to be a part of the article. I support protecting it.

[edit] Willard Scott as Ronald McDonald

I grew up in the Washington, D.C., area and remember seeing Willard Scott playing the role of Ronald McDonald in T.V. ads. I had also remembered him as having played Bozo a few years earlier, so it was no surprise that he was now playing another clown. I knew that Bozo was a national phenomenon played by a different personality in each T.V. market where the show aired, so I figured Ronald McDonald was done the same way.

In 1986, I read newspaper articles marking the 20th anniversary of Ronald McDonald. This surprised me because I knew that I had seen the ads featuring Willard Scott before 1966. A few years later, I checked out a book Willard (anyone who grew up watching him is on a first name basis with him) had written from a local library, and I learned that he had pioneered the concept in the D.C. area before it went national. So, 1986 as the 20th anniversary was proper with regard to the national campaign.

In the late 1990s, someone in California told me that the Willard Scott story was not true and that Ronald McDonald originated in Los Angeles. I thought this person did not have the correct facts, but I see from this article that there may be a basis of truth in what this person told me. RSLitman 01:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the Willard Scott story was true. Rm1963 (talk) 21:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

RSLitman, I don't think that person was right. Willard Scott even said himself that he created Ronald McDonald. Willard Scott deserves to take full credit for creating him. I don't know why he dosen't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.72.140 (talk) 00:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I was at a McDonald a few years ago and I was told that Willard Scott, George Voorhis and Terry Teene were friends with eachother. They all worked on him together as a team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.72.140 (talk) 21:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

George Voorhees and Terry Teene created: the character, the name (the Valley News and Green Sheet picture caption calls the character "Ronald Mcdonald" -- emphasis mine, small 'd'), the original costume, and the original makeup (much closer to the modern version than Willard Scotts face, which was like his Bozo face) of the character. Prior to McDonald's contacting Willard Scott. Willard Scott claimed in his book to have invented Ronald MacDonald. He may very well believe that he did, however his costume in the 3 tv commercials (his only appearances as RM, apparently) are substantially similar to the original costume -- French fry bag pockets on the front at hip level/food tray hat/paper cup nose.

Willard Scott just put on a costume that was provided to him, made his face up like he did as Bozo and portrayed the already-created character. The costume that Willard Scott wore was presumably created using photos of the original Voorhees/Teene character, as the costume was not identical but only similar. There is no evidence that Terry Teene and George Voorhees ever met Willard Scott. There is no comment by Willard Scott which mentions the other two creators. Both Teene and Voorhees have made statements (In Cavalcade of Clowns and Calliope) that they created the character together. Neither was paid for the character, but only for their performances, at 'standard clown rates' of the time.

McDonalds does not acknowlege their claim. The Valley News and Green Sheet is a contemporaneous record which establishes that the character was played by George Voorhees prior to McDonalds having contacted Willard Scott. User:Pedant (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

NO, Willard Scott created Ronald McDonald. Not George Voorhees or Terry Teene. I have talked to Willard in the past and he told me he created the character and then Voorhees created the Ronald Mcdonald that everyone now knows well. So Pedant please do not call Willard Scott a liar. If this does not stop I'm showing Willard Scott this article and talk page and he'll be angry with you guys. Ufoundme2 (talk) 22:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] this article needs major cleanup

The article makes mention of last names in odd places with no prior reference to them. "McDonald's does not mention Voorhees or claim that Willard Scott "created Ronald" in their statement:" At this point in the article who is Voorhees? The entire page reads as if it's been pieced together, and from reading of the several vandalism recoveries that have occurred I'm pretty sure along the way the article got a bit chopped up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.226.57.27 (talk) 22:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

George Voorhis was Willard Scott's friend (I was told). I heard that he died in 1989. Hankzimer (talk) 00:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

George Voorhis as Ronald McDonald. I married this man's daughter in 1968. I wish I'd checked out this page years ago. He was a professional clown and was Ronald McDonald in Southern California from the mid-sixties until the mid-eighties. He made several commercials but his primary function as Ronald was personal appearances at openings of new McDonald's stores and newly renovated stores in and around the So. Cal. area. He was not a homosexual and was never accused of being one. Jimmknows 00:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Article Name has Strangely Changed

For some reason, Angelica Pickles has changed this article's name to "The Penis Clown". I looked on the edit history, and for some reason it says that she changed it to that on May 14, 2007, though I found it with this name and am even writing this concerned paragraph on May 13. THIS IS VERY STRANGE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JYMoore (talk • contribs)

I fixed the page move vandalism. As for why it says it was changed May 14 and you're looking at it on May 13, it's your time zone preferences on your account that is causing the apparent discrepancy. -- Gogo Dodo 06:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I changed it because that's Ronald's nickname. Some people on youtube call him that.

Thanks a lot Gogo. JYMoore 04:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture

This section is comprised entirely of original research. Ronald McDonald and McDonald's advertising in general makes no reference to any of these shows/events. Therefore, they don't belong in the Ronald McDonald article. These events reference Ronald McDonald. As such, any mention (if notable) belongs there, not here. If Ronald McDonald has had an impact on popular culture, then this section should cite the sources discussing this topic and not the original material (TV shows, etc). Failing to do this violates WP:NOR. Rklawton 04:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The popular culture section seems to be missing. Aren't their any tv shows, movies, books, works of art that refer to the McDonalds clown? One example I can think of is Douglas Coupland's novel jPod that has a frustrated Ronald McDonald who infiltrates a computer game as a killer clown. Felix Atagong 09:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Media:Headline text

[edit] Merge proposal

[edit] Subtle Vandalism / Spam, unfollowed lead, or what?

I believe the following line is a piece of very subtle vandalism / spam or whatever you may call it, it just strikes me as out of place:
"Due to the controversy over fast food, critics have likened McDonald to Joe Camel, the former mascot of Camel cigarettes.[2]"
The line doesn't follow the tempo of the article, the reference attached to it goes to a very poorly formatted webpage (broken character escapes all over (which can be, but is not always, an indication of a content scrape from another source), and overly large text) and Critics does not equal Critic. It either needs to be followed up and expanded upon, moved, or removed because there's nothing else in the article about critics.--68.237.239.86 (talk) 01:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)A Passing Visitor

I agree. I wouldn't call it vandalism or spam though. I removed it from the article. If anyone disagrees, feel free to discuss. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 02:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Willard Scott created Ronald McDonald

Willard Scott is the offical creator of Ronald McDonald. George Voorhis and Terry Teene helped him create the character. They were his partners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.48.82 (talk) 21:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually Willard Scott created Ronald McDonald and it was all his idea. George Voorhis and Terry Teene had nothing to do with Ronald McDonald at all. Hankzimer (talk) 13:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you guys have any sources to back up your claims? ~a (user • talk • contribs) 17:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, & http://kidshow.dcmemories.com/willard.html. Willard Scott is famous and those other guys are not. Hankzimer (talk) 19:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I was told that the George Voorhis and Terry Teene story was not true. Also that he was just created by Willard Scott. George Voorhis did not play Ronald McDonald until the late 60's and Terry Teene was a singer. But Willard Scott was first known as the creator of Ronald McDoanld. So can we leave the creation of Ronald McDonald all to Willard Scott and give him all credit. Rm1963 (talk) 21:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

This is what happened, Ronald McDonald was first created by Willard Scott then George Voorhis and Terry Teene stole the idea from him that's what caused all this dispute, so George Voorhis and Terry Teene are liars. Ihjmwt2petwbgwh (talk) 02:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is the real story according to some sites; Willard Scott played bozo the clown and was then asked to create Ronald McDonald so he did http://www.thejoyboys.com/ronald.htm . So then he played them in three commercials. Im pretty sure McDonlads gave the name but the first idea was by Willard Scott. Then after McDonalds fired Willard Scott. George Voorhis and Terry Teene craeted the second version; i can tell on this Terry Teene site http://www.rockabillyhall.com/TerryTeene.html if you look at the clown he is playing it looks like the second Ronald McDonald http://www.talentondisplay.com/00/terryteene08.jpg. NM76UU (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

No. The terry Teene/George Voorhees story is true. I have seen the original costume personally. I have seen the Valley News and Green Sheet picture (a contemporaneous published record), predating the Willard Scott story. Scott probably never met or was aware of either Terry Teene and George Voorhees or was aware that he was portraying a character that already existed. Willard Scott may be justifiably credited for the first 3 TV advertisements only. Regardless of his belief or claim, he did not "invent" Ronald, and only by a stretch of semantics can he be said to have "created" Ronald. The Valley News and Green Sheet picture's caption spelled the name Mcdonald with a lower case 'd'. User:Pedant (talk) 20:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article is biased.

Well. I suggest the McDonald's Coproration wrote this article. Or Ronald himself!

Seriously, I've rarely read such a biased text on Wikipedia. Why does nobody mention all the criticism all around the world? "Ronald" isn't banned in Sweden for no reason! (But for manipulation of children!)

For God's sake, this article has to be revisited by people who are not employed by the McDonald's Corporation.

I will add a few things as soon as I have time.

Well, Wikipedia fellows, think about it. And have a nice day :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.79.224.208 (talk • contribs) 16:42, 24 January 2008

Firstly, don't jump to the conclusion that the editors of this article work for McDonald's. I, for one, do not work for McDonald's. Secondly, do you have any specific information to add to the article? You mention Ronald isn't banned in Sweden? Are you saying that he is banned in Sweden? Do you have a reputable source that can verify that? Thanks. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 02:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who created Ronald McDonald

There is a big war on the internet over who created Ronald McDonald. Was it Willard Scott, George or Terry Teene (or all three of them?). Who is it??? Hankzimer (talk) 00:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Official McDonald's official corporate history states it was Scott. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 15:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Your right Jerem43 so then Willard Sc--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 06:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)ott it is then. He created Ronald McDonald even McDonalds says that. So it must be true. Hankzimer (talk) 21:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

McDonald's credits Scott with being the first to portray Ronald on TV. They never say that the character was invented originally by Scott. Though McDonald's does not acknowledge that they got their mascot for the price of a local clown hired for a couple of days, that is not surprising. Just because McDonald's says something doesn't mean it is true. Corporations are required by law to maximize shareholder profit, no law requires them to tell the truth outside of a court of law. They used to claim their food was wholesome too. The contemporaneous record of the photo in the Green Sheet predates the date Scott claims to have created the character. Willard Scott may not be lying (he may believe that he was the first, and he never claims to have created the costume -- which is substantially similar (but not identical, not the very same costume) to the one (created by Teene/Voorhees) pictured in the Green Sheet -- he is however incorrect in his claim. User:Pedant (talk) 20:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually he does claim he created the suit, in a recent interview for the Food Network. McD's Backs him up. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have anything more specific, like a date the program aired or something? If Scott claims to have created the suit then it is certain that he knows about the Terry Teene/George Voorhees suit (in my opinion) because the costume has specific points of similarity that I don't believe could be coincidental. (again, my belief, not an allegation of wrongdoing) I have seen the commercials done by Willard Scott, (Interestingly, in the first commercial done by Willard Scott, a child speaks the line "You really are Ronald McDonald!" which implies to me that he was already a known character. )and I have seen the original Voorhees costume, and have seen the picture in the paper, and (I know: original research) I have spoken with Terry and George, they both tell substantially the same story, and both are well-known to me as being extremely honest and moral men. I'm trying to find the court record where McDonald's advertising company's law firm sued and won an injunction against George Voorhees. That should shed some more light on the issue. User:Pedant (talk) 04:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

This is copy and paste from of the cite of the same TV show I used in the Burger King article:

cite episode
| url=http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/show_iz/episode/0,3195,FOOD_31138_56604,00.html
| title=Big Burger Business: McDonald's and Burger King
| series=Heavyweights
| network=Food Network
| airdate=2008-04-21
| season=2
| number=3

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 04:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeremy is right. george voorhis and terry teene never made a commercial and scott is more famous.Hankzimer (talk) 05:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

NO, he not. Voorhis and Teene have evidence and Scott dosen't. So listen to Pedant, okay. Plyjacks (talk) 05:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Find the cite backing you up and you can include the data, other wise it is WP:OR. I don't care which is what with whom. I can only comment on what I have read and seen. I do not care about who created the clown. -- Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 05:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I just read that Willard Scott said he created Ronald McDonald but didn't copyright him. He said after he got fired by McDonald's in 1963 that two other men took credit for him. I'm not sure if this is true though. It might not be. Hankzimer (talk) 06:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

That's just made up by someone and not anywhere close to the facts. Ronald McDonald is trademarked. Terry Teene and George Voorhees never "took credit" for Ronald, they simply created him, in the same way that they each have created several other characters, in the normal course of working as children's entertainers. This is the same Terry Teene who recorded the Album Made in the USA, wrote and performed Curse of the Hearse, and hundreds of other songs, and is in, (or maybe was just nominated for - I don't know) the Rockabilly Hall of Fame. User:Pedant (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Every one stop now. No more edits to the article, no more reverts. This is starting to descend into an edit war and that is against Wikipedia policy. Until the claims can be verified by a reliable source, do not change the name of the creator. I am going to put a compromise in and until we can resolve the issue, please do not change it.

[edit] Can we move on?

As I said before, the Valley News and Green Sheet, a major newspaper of the time, published a picture of George Voorhees (Voorhees is the correct spelling) as Ronald McDonald, before Willard Scott performed as Ronald. It's a contemporaneous source, and was published prior to any controversy about the creation. Willard Scott may think he is correct, but he is not. User:Pedant (talk) 22:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as the article goes though, I think it's appropriate as it stands. It includes the claim by Voorhees and Teene, and also the claim by Willard Scott. It states in the infobox that it was created by all 3 Scott/Voorhees/Teene. Each of these men may take some credit for creating Ronald, and none of them have had a major impact on Ronald McDonald as he is today. There is also the note (disputed) in the infobox, since Willard Scott claims to have created Ronald,but the contemporaneous record shows otherwise. (the lawsuit, and the appearance in the paper, and the article in Calliope)

There are clear references for Willard Scott's claim, and an acknowledgment by McDonald's that Scott created the character.

There is also the published photo and the references in Calliope, Cavalcade of Clowns to back up the Voorhees and Teene assertion.

None of the 3 stand to gain anything from 'being the creator' and McDonald's won't gain by clearing things up. McDonald's is a corporation, the officers of which are bound by law to make decisions which will maximize share value and corporate profit. It is not profitable to them to associate their icon with being created for free by 2 relatively unknown -- and financially uncompensated entertainers.

I just changed "Willard Scott created" to "Willard Scott first portrayed on TV". (which is certainly true and no dispute) I think we should leave the whole subject alone at this point, I'm pretty sure we have the closest thing to the truth that we can arrive at as far as the creation of Ronald goes. There is so much more to this article's subject matter than how the character was portrayed the first few times. It's essentially an entirely different character at this point.

Can we move on from this issue? We have already spent more effort than it is worth about who created Ronald. User:Pedant (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand you know Mr. Voorhees and that you feel for his side of the story, could you please put a proper citation for the article in the two sources you mentioned using the {{cite news}} citation? That way we can put both sides up legitimately without a future editor coming along and deleting the Voorhees/Teene section as being un-cited, which I believe to be inevitable as it stands now. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

First, I don't 'know' George Voorhees, I have worked with him several times, but I do know Terry Teene, though we haven't been in contact more than a few times since he moved to Texas. I barely remember the piece in Calliope (which was a brief anecdote about mostly other stuff, but does contain a reference to the Ronald creation story). I can't cite that and I have no idea where to find old copies of Calliope, either. The key pieces I know CAN be found are the newspaper; and the lawsuit where Voorhees was enjoined by the court not to portray Ronald's likeness. That would be a Los Angeles Municipal Court, and the proper spelling (I think) is Voorhees not Voorhis. I don't know what the litigant was called, they were acting on behalf of McDonalds'... I have no idea how to find that case. I'm pretty sure though that someone could locate the picture in the Valley News and Green Sheet, but I don't even know if that paper exists anymore. All I do know is that it does exist, it's a reputable source, and a contemporaneous source, and it predates Willard Scott's involvement. Future editors probably WILL remove it -- citation or not, I feel -- that has happened before. I live in the San Fernando Valley, so it's barely conceivable that if the paper has changed hands, that I might be able to theoretically find the reference in their morgue, if they transferred it over to the new owner. I just don't have much luck dealing with people face-to-face unless they know me... I'm not one of those attractive people who can win over strangers with my smile. It seems easier to me to just refer to the paper as a reference, since I know it exists and I know it's verifiable, I just don't know how to verify it. I also don't have a lot of free time to spend on it, and it's not that important to me. But clowns and clowning are subjects I've taken under my wing during my years on Wikipedia, and Ronald McDonald just barely falls into my interests. I'm not going to debate endlessly about it, I just can only keep saying the same thing, which I know is true. George and Terry, together, made the costume, and both of them used it, but George was first. They came up with the name. They got paid maybe a few hundred dollars at the most for all of the performances as Ronald, total. It's not a major thing in either of their lives, but it is the origin of Ronald McDonald, and there is a newspaper that published the facts. We use obscure and out-of-print books as references all the time, and those are considered verifiable. A contemporaneous public record is a contemporaneous public record, whether I can actually lay my hands on a 45-year-old copy of the newspaper or not. Unless I can do that, I won't be having anything new to say on the subject, I've said all I know. Someone younger and more eager may need to be the one who digs up the article. Meanwhile, there are other ways to improve the article. I'd like to move on to those other things regardless of the future outcome of this particular bit of text.

If you can get me the following, I will do it:

• Name publication
• Date of pub
• Author
• Page number

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 08:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the scoop Willard had his own version of the costume and so did Voorhees and Teene. The costumes were DIFFERENT. McDonald's just wanted help finding which one was better. Voorhees and Teene had simular but different costumes. Same with the new and well known one. So they should all take credit. Mcdonaldsfreak82 (talk) 03:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

That may be true as well. But you never know. Plyjacks (talk) 03:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I was just told that Willard Scott created the first costume (his first version was different from Voorhees and Teene's first version) and then Willard Scott created the current well known version that everyone now knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcdonaldsfreak82 (talk • contribs) 00:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that is true or not. But I'll take your word. Hankzimer (talk) 00:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edit troubles me, and I don't mean with the mis-spelling of "the". This source you quote as being definitive, [3], is it reliable? --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 05:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)