Talk:Romanov sainthood

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An entry from Romanov sainthood appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 2 March 2007.

[edit] What the icon depicts

The icon clearly states in Slavonic "Royal Martyrs". All the figures are also holding crosses in their hands, which is likewise an iconographic symbol of a martyr. You may not agree with the what the icon depicts, but there is no disputing that the icon depicts them as Royal Martyrs... and not merely as passion bearers. The icon was painted by Fr. Cyprian of Jordanville, and so the origin is from the Russian Church Outside of Russia, which has always considered them as Martyrs. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 11:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Then perhaps you should specify who painted it and which church considers them martyrs in the caption. The Russian Orthodox Church does not consider them martyrs. Only the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia does or did. I'm not clear on whether they've joined together with the Russian Orthodox Church and are in communion with it. Hadn't that been discussed? --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 11:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

They are united, as of May 17, 2007. The article specifies the titles used in the ROC and in ROCOR. The caption refers only to the icon, and the icon is unambiguous. It should also be noted that in Russia, they are routinely spoken of as Martyrs. They were glorified as "passion bearers" in 2000 as a bone to those who had been opposed to their glorification. Popular veneration in Russia is huge, and such a distinctions is not generally made. In ROCOR they have always been referred to as "Royal Martyrs and Passion Bearers" in certain parts of the services. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 11:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is a challenge that I think is instructive. Find an icon of the Royal Martyrs depicted them as "Passion Bearers" only, painted in or outside of Russia. I have never seen one, and doubt that such exists -- and you see icons of them all over Russia. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

One other point regarding the distinction between a passion-bearer and a martyr. Reference in many sources are made to the parallel between Ss. Boris and Gleb and the Royal Martyrs. Ss. Boris and Gleb are referred to as Passion-bearers... however, they are also spoken of as martyrs -- you can see this is the service to them (for example, at Vespers they are called "most glorious martyrs"). What's more, I have the official liturgical guide of the Moscow Patriarchate -- Bogosluzhebniye Ukazaniya na 2008 god, and on page 444, it references the doxosticon of the Aposticha at Vespers, as beginning with the words "O Martyred Tsar Nicholas..." ("Muchenichye Tsaryu Nikolaye..."). I don't have the official service used in the Moscow Patriarchate, but I would be willing to bet you money that this is not the only reference in that service to their being martyrs. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 11:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why insist on hashing out a complex issue in the caption to an icon?

Bookworms insistence upon "The family are passion bearers of the Russian Orthodox Church and martyrs of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia." is a nonsensical statement. How could the Royal Martyrs be "martyrs of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia"? They were not part of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. Also, I have documented that they are considered Martyrs by the Russian Orthodox Church inside of Russia. This is an issue that should be hashed out in the article, with reliable sources, and not in the caption of an icon, that does not have anything to do with this dispute. No where on the icon does the word "passion bearer" appear. I have asked bookworm to find one in which that term does appear. So far, nothing. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 04:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, just noticed that both titles were right beneath the caption, and so it makes even less sense to repeat them in the caption, which would normally be a description of the image, which is what it now is.

Frjohnwhiteford (talk)

Look, the information you want is in there, but I think it's also appropriate to clarify which Orthodox church canonized them as martyrs and which as passion bearers. Every reference I found about the canonizations in Moscow and in the Church Outside of Russia made this distinction. Some people may look only at the caption and then flip on to another page without reading through the whole article. The image gets looked at first. I have added that sentence back. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 12:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to repeat their titles in the caption. The caption refers to the image. I have noted the jurisdictional differences in the "Title" section. If you want more details on that issue, you need to read the article. I have provided you with documentation which demonstrates that your simplistic statement is overly simplistic to the point of distortion of the facts. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 12:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)